Blending vs co-fermentation

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

It’s always wise to avoid drawing broad conclusions from minimal evidence. I’m sure in Russell’s experience playing around he found no difference in his particular experiments. In the spectrum of possibilities, we see above experience where cofermenting gives inferior results. We have factual evidence with some examples where and how it works… It shouldn’t be surprising there are cases it makes either no difference or no discernible difference.

There are certainly plenty of other examples in more traditional winemaking of a certain percentage of white grapes interplanted intentionally. That includes red Burgundy. In California, mixed black field blends often had/have a few white varieties in the mix. I see this in more off the beaten path areas of Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc. The move to increasing quality put this and other practices in the dust bin. I think we’re now seeing a lot of reflection on what discarded practices have their usefulness in certain circumstances. Kudos to the nimble, innovative winemakers.

Great post.

My one nit-pick, is to say that some practices may be in the dust bin due to current fashion rather than increasing quality(a very subjective process) and that as things move away from those practices, it almost guarantees they will circle back around as a new generation of winemaker/producers increases quality…er, adopts a new current fashion.

[larry_schaffer]

Larry,

How long have you been making Syrah?

We did from 2008-2016, from a vineyard in the WV. 100% whole cluster, treaded with only modest aggression , and Viognier varying from 16% in 2008 and 2009 to about 6% in one cuvee.

Site specific though…because I just had one site to choose from.

It might be fun to do a Syrah tasting at some point and look at what stems and Viognier offer.

Marcus,

I’ve been making syrah since 2006, with one site continuously from 2007 to the present. I’ve done co-ferments only a handful of times due to availability from the vineyard, and 100% whole cluster since 2014. Note that my syrahs see 30-44 months in older French oak, not racked until just before bottling.

Cheers

[John_Morris]

Hermitage allows up to 15% of Marsanne and/or Roussanne, although seems to be less common than co-fermenting with Vigonier in Cote Rotie. I think Tablas Creek in Paso Robles also co-ferments Roussanne with some Syrah lots although I’m not sure they have ever released those lots (rather they use them in the Esprit blends).

-Al

Do you know of any Hermitage that includes white grapes?

[John_Morris]

I’m not sure about the claim regarding changing flavors and integrating them, but the rationale I have always heard for co-fermenting Syrah and Viognier is that it helps stabilize the color.

From Eric Baugher of Ridge:

The viognier contains colorless flavanols from the skins that extract and conjugate with the extreme concentration of syrah’s anthocyanin color molecules. Basically, the theory is that viognier helps stabilize syrah’s color; the condensation reactions between viognier’s flavanols and syrah’s anthocyanins form highly stable polymerized molecules that stay with the wine for life. Once these polymers form, they don’t degrade through normal oxidation reactions.

There is also a shift in the color spectrum of a syrah that has co-fermented with viognier. Normally, syrah has a deep ruby color. Once viognier is thrown into the mix for the complex reactions to form, the color will shift from deep ruby to saturated purple/blue. > This has a lot to do with light absorption/re-emission quantum chemistry of the anthocyanin complex with the viognier flavanols altering the polarity and electron flow of the multi-six carbon phenol ring that forms the anthocyanim molecule, thus altering the molar extinction coefficient. The absorption of green spectrum light (520nm) by these condensed molecules causes re-emission of red spectrum 700nm plus a stronger re-emission at 420nm (deep purple/blue). That’s why the co-fermented syrah/viognier blend works magically, > creating an inkier wine. > It’s strange how this all works, taking a dark grape and cutting it with a white variety, and end up > making a wine that is even darker. > That’s the complexity of quantum chemistry, which I had the pleasure of studying many years ago while obtaining my biochemistry degree.

Now, I should say that this co-fermentation phenomena has been a very traditional winemaking approach taken in the northern rhone valley of France. Through centuries of trial-and-error with many other varietals of the region, the combination of syrah with viognier became the standard. This was decided by making better wine, not by having knowledge of the complex chemistry. The chemistry came along much later to explain why it worked so well.“

Stabilizing and fixing color sounds more reasonable. I’ve read many times how co-fermenting a little bit of Viognier with a Syrah makes it (in a seemingly magical fashion) deeper and darker in color, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. I’ve read one academic research where they co-fermented small batches of Syrah with varying amounts of Viognier and it always resulted in a lighter / less opaque wine. Especially at 20% the color was noticeably lighter and more translucent. However, fixing the color and making it more resistant against oxidative degeneration sounds more sensible, because that’s something you wouldn’t see immediately after making the wine, but after many years. If it really works like this, after a decade or two a Syrah co-fermented with Viognier might appear much darker compared to a 100% Syrah, which would explain why some people errorneously think adding a Viognier makes a Syrah become darker in color.

So you are disagreeing with Baugher and contending that the cofermentation of viognier with syrah only stabilizes/fixes the color of the wine and doesn’t actually darken it, based on an article you read? It sounds like Baugher has a lot of chemical data from the winemaking at Ridge to support his stronger claim.

Obviously, the effect of 20% viognier on the color may be quite different from 3% or 5%.

[Matt_Mauldin]

Hermitage allows up to 15% of Marsanne and/or Roussanne, although seems to be less common than co-fermenting with Vigonier in Cote Rotie. I think Tablas Creek in Paso Robles also co-ferments Roussanne with some Syrah lots although I’m not sure they have ever released those lots (rather they use them in the Esprit blends).

-Al

Do you know of any Hermitage that includes white grapes?

Sorrel’s La Greal Hermitage does.

[larry_schaffer]

I was always under the impression that the co-factor or co-pigmentation aspect of the Co-Fermentation was a short lived phenomenon . . .

Cheers

[Al_Osterheld]

Hermitage allows up to 15% of Marsanne and/or Roussanne, although seems to be less common than co-fermenting with Vigonier in Cote Rotie. I think Tablas Creek in Paso Robles also co-ferments Roussanne with some Syrah lots although I’m not sure they have ever released those lots (rather they use them in the Esprit blends).

-Al

Do you know of any Hermitage that includes white grapes?

Sorrel’s La Greal Hermitage does.

I don’t think there aren’t very many, not aware of another from memory/experience. Note that Marsanne and Roussanne have value for Hermitage Blanc, also the appellation historically was a bit warmer than Cote Rotie so the Syrah ripened more easily.

-Al

[Otto_Forsberg]

So you are disagreeing with Baugher and contending that the cofermentation of viognier with syrah only stabilizes/fixes the color of the wine and doesn’t actually darken it, based on an article you read?

I’m not disagreeing, the academic paper on the subject that I’ve read is.

EDIT: Couldn’t find the research, just the abstract. What it said was that 5% addition didn’t change the wine at all, but 10% addition diluted the color some and 20% noticeably.

So while a blog post from the Ridge website is interesting and I’m not questioning Baugher’s knowledge on the subject, I still give more credibility to an actual research paper that has most likely been peer-reviewed before release. As to why the results differ this much, I can’t answer myself.

[John_Morris]

It’s not hard to imagine that there’s a maximum percentage of viognier that works to darken the syrah pigments, and after that, more white juice lightens the color.

I guess I’d like to know more about the part you summarized as the “5% addition didn’t change the wine at all.” No darker than with 0% viognier?

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

So you are disagreeing with Baugher and contending that the cofermentation of viognier with syrah only stabilizes/fixes the color of the wine and doesn’t actually darken it, based on an article you read?

I’m not disagreeing, the academic paper on the subject that I’ve read is.

EDIT: Couldn’t find the research, just the abstract. What it said was that 5% addition didn’t change the wine at all, but 10% addition diluted the color some and 20% noticeably.

So while a blog post from the Ridge website is interesting and I’m not questioning Baugher’s knowledge on the subject, I still give more credibility to an actual research paper that has most likely been peer-reviewed before release. As to why the results differ this much, I can’t answer myself.

I’m inclined to agree with the idea that it stabilizes color, rather than darkens it. Ut at low percentages in the ferments that I did(say 0%-5%), there’s very little difference in hue and depth of color. At higher percentages(10-16%), the wines were a lighter hue but still more deeply colored than most of my Pinot Noirs.

[John_Morris]

Is it possible that syrah responds very differently than pinot, Marcus?

[CJ_Beazley]

So you are disagreeing with Baugher and contending that the cofermentation of viognier with syrah only stabilizes/fixes the color of the wine and doesn’t actually darken it, based on an article you read?

I’m not disagreeing, the academic paper on the subject that I’ve read is.

EDIT: Couldn’t find the research, just the abstract. What it said was that 5% addition didn’t change the wine at all, but 10% addition diluted the color some and 20% noticeably.

So while a blog post from the Ridge website is interesting and I’m not questioning Baugher’s knowledge on the subject, I still give more credibility to an actual research paper that has most likely been peer-reviewed before release. As to why the results differ this much, I can’t answer myself.

I’m inclined to agree with the idea that it stabilizes color, rather than darkens it. Ut at low percentages in the ferments that I did(say 0%-5%), there’s very little difference in hue and depth of color. At higher percentages(10-16%), the wines were a lighter hue but still more deeply colored than most of my Pinot Noirs.

Dumb question, do Viognier and Syrah always ripen/get picked at the exact same time? If not which one is “added”last? How exactly does this work?

[larry_schaffer]

I’m not disagreeing, the academic paper on the subject that I’ve read is.

EDIT: Couldn’t find the research, just the abstract. What it said was that 5% addition didn’t change the wine at all, but 10% addition diluted the color some and 20% noticeably.

So while a blog post from the Ridge website is interesting and I’m not questioning Baugher’s knowledge on the subject, I still give more credibility to an actual research paper that has most likely been peer-reviewed before release. As to why the results differ this much, I can’t answer myself.

I’m inclined to agree with the idea that it stabilizes color, rather than darkens it. Ut at low percentages in the ferments that I did(say 0%-5%), there’s very little difference in hue and depth of color. At higher percentages(10-16%), the wines were a lighter hue but still more deeply colored than most of my Pinot Noirs.

Dumb question, do Viognier and Syrah always ripen/get picked at the exact same time? If not which one is “added”last? How exactly does this work?

As with everything else wine related, there is no ‘always’. Most winemakers who do this that I know, including myself, bring both in at the same time from the same vineyard.

Some bring both in at the same time from different vineyards.

Some just use the leftover skins of pressed viogner and add that to the syrah.

One winery I know froze the skins into 10 lb blocks and added them to the syrah when it came in and used these to help cold soak the syrah.

Some just add Viognier juice.

Some just blend finished viognier into finished syrah.

Cheers.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Larry,

How long have you been making Syrah?

We did from 2008-2016, from a vineyard in the WV. 100% whole cluster, treaded with only modest aggression , and Viognier varying from 16% in 2008 and 2009 to about 6% in one cuvee.

Site specific though…because I just had one site to choose from.

It might be fun to do a Syrah tasting at some point and look at what stems and Viognier offer.

Marcus,

I’ve been making syrah since 2006, with one site continuously from 2007 to the present. I’ve done co-ferments only a handful of times due to availability from the vineyard, and 100% whole cluster since 2014. Note that my syrahs see 30-44 months in older French oak, not racked until just before bottling.

Cheers

Very cool. It would be a fun comparison. In addition to sharing the use of stems, we both use(d)only neutral oak, and our elevage was 28-40 months.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Is it possible that syrah responds very differently than pinot, Marcus?

Syrah is just a much more darkly hued and thicker skinned grape than Pinot Noir.

My comments about co-pigmentation were specific to our Syrah wines, but we also had a block of Pinot Noir that had some white mutations and a few of rogue Chardonnay and Pinot Gris vines. I co-fermented them(Goodfellow is a site based producer, and I figured that would have been common a few hundred years ago) for a couple of vintages, and the wines were good but color was a touch lighter even with just a 5-6 plants.

[Mikael_OB]

For what it’s worth, I was listening to John Kongsgaard on the I’ll Drink to That podcast (really great podcast), and I believe he mentioned that you get very different results if you co-ferment vs merely blend.

Was a while since I listened, recall it was a very intreating one.

Another aspect that is very interesting, at least to me when it comes to co-fermenting is how it might impact in terms of yeasts versus separate fermentation of the varieties. Especially assuming native yeast fermentation - I can imagine it changing the fermentation with increased complexity of yeasts.

I have no doubt both can make great wines though!

[John_Morris]

Is it possible that syrah responds very differently than pinot, Marcus?

Syrah is just a much more darkly hued and thicker skinned grape than Pinot Noir.

My comments about co-pigmentation were specific to our Syrah wines, but we also had a block of Pinot Noir that had some white mutations and a few of rogue Chardonnay and Pinot Gris vines. I co-fermented them(Goodfellow is a site based producer, and I figured that would have been common a few hundred years ago) for a couple of vintages, and the wines were good but color was a touch lighter even with just a 5-6 plants.

Thanks for the clarification. I thought maybe your observation of no darkening related only to pinots with some white juice in the mix.

[Chris_Seiber]

How common is co-fermenting in Bordeaux or the Southern Rhone? How about Chianti? Rioja?

I’m trying to think of places that historically made blended wines. My guess is it’s rarely done, and then probably by super old school types like Bel Air Marquis de Aligre. But I have no idea, so I ask the board.

[Wes_Barton]

Btw, I’ve seen the scientific explanation for what happens with Syrah-Viognier co-fermentation. It’s been in previous threads on this board. Don’t quote me, but iirc something from the Viognier bonded to the Syrah pigment, changing the refraction.

[larry_schaffer]

I will reiterate what I learned at UC Davis and what I’ve seen in subsequent papers - the concept of ‘co-pigmentation’ in syrah/viognier co-ferments is a short-lived phenomenon that is most noticeable in very young wines, but the effect is not readily visible after about a year.

There is no doubt that a lot of other reactions are taking place. If viognier contributes to the creation of polymeric pigments, which are tannin-anthocyanin molecules that are not only more color-stable than tannins on their own but also tend to be less astringent, this might support ‘fixing’ color.

As far as other things that may be happening with co-fermentations of different varieties, we simply do not know. There has not been enough research into this - and I am skeptical of those in our industry who claim things are ‘better’ without scientific facts to back them up.

Cheers