Everyone stop talking about 2014 LMHB, or back vintage 2014 Bordeaux, nothing to see here.
For me, I’ve been buying more super seconds/thirds from the 2000s 2nd tier vintages at auction (Figeac, Canon, Issan, Pichons, Montrose, Barton, Gruaud Larose), can consistently get wines for around $100-125 that are drinking well now if a bit primary and will ago for another 10-20 years.
Also tempted by Meyney, Lanessan, and Potensac with age.
Otto, what are some of your best examples of old world value wines that outclass the best Bordeaux wines of the $20-50 range in good vintages? Always looking to expand my horizons and find values of this type.
Petrus?
So maybe a question of budget.
It really depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for a producer that is going to be a good replacement for Bordeaux in the Bordeaux style, I’d say Mas de Daumas Gassac, and a good handful of producers from Southwest France. But even then it all depends on what kind of Bordeaux wines you were drinking in the first place. Lean, old-school producers clocking at 12,5% ABV are quite different from modern, oak-heavy producers emphasizing ripe fruit and clocking at 15%. But if it isn’t exactly Bdx style of red you’re looking, for the world’s your oyster.
I 2nd the 2nd wine of VCC…2016 version is fantastic.
St. Pierre
If you’re looking for elite it’s only Cheval Blanc.
One idiot’s 2 cents:
Generally avoid 2017s. Vintage is badly overrated, vastly inferior to '16 and '15. Beau-Sejour Becot and Pavie Macquin are legit good though (tasted at UGC right before Covid).
For me, year-by-year, Pichon Lalande is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the whole gym
Lynch Bages right there.
Leoville Barton right there.
14/15/16 Lagrange (huge production, always findable pretty cheap, and like the Toyota Camry of Bordeaux, in a good way - St. Julien character seems always there – '14 surprisingly good drinking now)
Specific recent winners:
2015 Bon Pasteur (super-hedonistic)
2015 Haut-Batailley (tastes expensive, isn’t)
Thanks Otto, that’s an interesting one that I’ll have to try. I definitely lean towards the leaner/old school. My favorite Bordeaux tend to come in between 12.5-13.5%. Any other recommendations? Does not have to be bordeaux like necessarily. Although I don’t tend to be a fan of GSM’s(albeit a lot of that is because of the alcohol and heat on the taste)
It’s tier wines
Ducru Beaucaillou
Pichon Lalande
Vieux Chateau Certan
2nd tier
Issan
Branaire
Giscours
Haut Bailly
Other values
Corbin
Chases Spleen
Lanessan pre 2016
Siran
Beauregard
Malartic la Graviere
Best value period. Chateau d’Issan.
For me, second labels need to be as good as their price peers. Les Forts de Latour for instance is not as good as Ducru, Pichon Lalande or Pichon Baron, and is probably at the same level as Lynch Bages and Pontet Canet, which are about two thirds of the price.
You are getting the Latour imprimatur whatever that is worth. And Forts is by far the best of the second labels. I cannot think of a single one that I would take over a Grand Vin from a great producer. Robert mentions Gravette of VCC, which is not bad, but at $70, I can buy a bottle and a half of Issan, two bottles of Corbin etc.
If you are starting out, and are young, the arbitrage play are the 2019s, an excellent vintage which are incredibly cheap. I don’t know if there are any still available at opening prices, but look for Palmer and Pontet Canet. Palmer just north of $200 in a really good year is not going to be seen again.
Well, now you’ve opened a big can of worms, since if it hasn’t to be like Bordeaux, there are thousands and thousands of excellent wines in old world that excel in the $20-50 price range.
Some obvious picks are the good old WB crowd favorites like:
-R. Lopez de Heredia Viña Tondonia Reserva
-Chateau Musar
-Tempier Bandol
-Produttori del Barbaresco
-Virtually all Etna Rosso from any price bracket
But then there are some lesser known names like:
-Tenuta San Leonardo (in best vintages can be almost identical to an old-school Bordeaux red)
-Mastroberardino Taurasi Radici Riserva (not really anything like Bordeaux, but a wonderful southern Italian red that can age like crazy)
-Uccelliera Rosso di Montalcino (Brunello di Montalcinos can get quite expensive from great producers, but the best Rosso di Montalcinos can easily surpass the lesser Brunellos in quality - in best vintages this is one of them)
-Montevertine (as wonderful as a classic Tuscan red comes)
-Antonio Madeira’s red wines (pure, vibrant and harmonious wines from Dão that are among some of the most thrilling dry reds you’ll find in Portugal)
-Mas del Périé and Cosse Maisonneuve (contemporary yet very classically built wines from Cahors that combine the brooding nature of Malbec with wonderful sense of freshness)
-Plageoles (outstanding traditionalist wines from Gaillac - the producer is aiming to save the local rare varieties from extinction and has produced lots of excellent varietal wines from indigenous varieties like Prunelart, Ondenc, Mauzac Noir, Duras and Braucol)
-Dalamara (Beautifully complex, harmonious and very traditional reds from Naoussa, Greece; outrageous value for the quality)
I don’t think bordeaux is necessarily worse value per se than burgundy, napa, etc. But when you consider the sheer volume being produced, it is a bit of a head scratcher. At least with burgundy I know that the miniscule production is what drives the prices sky high.
2015 chateau d’Issan is one I went a little deeper on. It’s very good at that 60$ range. 2014 leoville barton as well in that range.
I know covid has made it hard to taste, but if the bordelaise hike 2020 pricing, I would consider 2019s. I haven’t tasted, so I can’t really make recommendations, but I did buy Lynch, Pontet, Issan, and Canon
Mark Golodetz wrote:
Best value period. Chateau d’Issan.
This is excellent advice for someone looking to build up a collection. I said to myself that I wouldn’t buy any more futures but I did buy some 2019 Bordeaux futures, including D’Issan. For $50 it was an easy call. I would not hesitate to backfill the 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2015 or 2016 if the opportunity arises.
this is almost exactly my list
Cantenac brown is one of my top holdings and always a good value.
I guess a lot depends on whether you want to buy a young Bordeaux to cellar for 20+ years, or purchase bottles that are mature right now. Either way, I’d gladly plonk down $90 for a ‘00 Branaire Ducru, to enjoy right now or anytime over the next 15 years, or $40 for a bottle of the ‘19 and cellar it until ready. Or take it up a notch and drop $125 for the ‘00 GPL, or $65 for the ‘19 GPL. I really don’t think you can do better, for either mature or young Cabernet based wines, than what the Branaire Ducru and Grand Puy Lacoste offer, in terms of quality versus price. And if you’re willing to take it up just another notch, well now you’re in the world of Pichon Lalande, Pichon Baron, Ducru Beaucaillou, and Montrose! The absolute best Cabernet based wines on earth. Sure, many other chateaux are more expensive, but are any really better?
I am happy that I started my wine adventures 35 years ago because the prices of wines like Cheval Blanc, Chambertin etc. were cheap compared to today. So I know how i.e. 1982 Latour, 1990 Cheval Blanc, 1990 La Tache and Rousseau Chambertin taste. They are fantastic wines. No question. But would I pay hundreds or thousands of dollars/euro to have that experience? No. Because as good as these wines are, they are not that much better as wines with lesser image. Theses wines are trophies now and the prices do not reflect what actually is in the bottle. And unfortunately its not only Bordeaux and Burgundy where the prices go up with every new vintage. German Riesling is another example and Barolo and Barbaresco also. Not to talk about Napa. We wine lovers should always have in mind that no wine is more expensive in production than about 10 dollars max. a bottle. The margin the elite producers of wine have is only comparable to drugs like cocain and heroin or perfume.
For a wine lover it is always a good idea to be open minded and look elsewhere when a certain thing has become an icon. There are always alternatives. Otto is right. There are still lots of good wine producers flying under the radar in every wine producing country. I love to support hard working people with passion to their job. Nobody must spend tons of money to drink fine wine.
BTW: Many Crus Bourgeoise are producing wines today that are superb and still affordable. I would recommend to try as many of them as possible. The equivalents on the Right Bank can be found in Fronsac and Cote de Castillon. 2014 and especially 2016 are vintages with fantastic quality. When you taste the best of this so called lesser wines blind versus many Grands Crus Classé you will find out that the gap in quality is pretty small if existent at all. That is my recommendation, experience and opinion.
If Grands Crus and value are the target:
St. Estephe / Lafon Rochet (Phelan Segur / Meyney – no Grands Crus but superb)
Pauillac / Batailley
St. Julien / Branaire Ducru (Gloria – no Grand Cru but superb)
Pessac-Graves / Domain de Chevalier
Margaux / Brane Cantenac (Labegorce – no Grand Cru but superb)
St. Emilion / Moulin St. Georges (same ownership as Chateau Ausone)
Pomerol / Gazin (Pomerol has no Grands Crus)
+10
Vintage , Vintage , Vintage… You might find a great label at a great price, but the vintage is quite important. research the great years for a particular appellation . See what you can find in that vintage.
Many times I’ve seen folks bring a bottle in to a restaurant with a great label ,but with an off year… not the best experience . Understand that Bordeaux is the largest fine wine district in the world, so check reviews, even from great vintage years. Perhaps Chateau Batailley Grand Cru Classe 2015? ( 67 Wine & Spirits NY has it now) Pauillac’s tend to be good younger than some other appellations .
Yet, as what was mentioned , its what you find that you like, and if you really like it and its a great price… buy a case , store it properly, and enjoy!
I can’t believe nobody has mentioned Feytit Clinet. It averages between 50-80 a bottle even in a good year. Best bang for your dollar in Pomerol. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}