Pompous but accurate, Alex. Your chest-pounding is not attracting any new readers, either. Start a thread on your beloved “other 95%” and see if anyone responds. Over and out here for now. I will flog you more later on a more suitable thread…
I fear I may be going off topic and beg understanding as I am so new, just about one week at this, I’ve learned a great deal reading very intelligent and well informed opinions, views. And the comment -“what about American’s…” went on about how will they carry on, entering E.P., or just in general, I know in Asia they have no use for Wine Spectator, but in the U.S. I thought that W.S. does have influence.
Is that only with less experienced and knowledgeable wine participants? or would the Berserker crowd make a purchase because W.S. raved about a wine in the same way I am assuming they would do if Parker raved?
Is W.S. very important and relevant to the serious wine drinkers in the U.S.?
Thank you for these very valuable insights I’ve been provided.
This. Neal may review Sauternes but there are only about a dozen of us who care.
Is W.S. very important and relevant to the serious wine drinkers in the U.S.?
Thank you for these very valuable insights I’ve been provided.
What are “serious wine drinkers”?
People who will spend $100 a bottle or more?
WS is influential for people who follow WS. There are some people who won’t follow WS simply because it’s WS. And some people like some of the WS writers more than others. There are people who like Matt Kramer for some reason and they think his comments are valuable but the comments of others are not.
On the WS forum the participants tend to be younger or at least more recently interested in wine. There are lots of those people on this forum as well, and some of the same participants, but this forum also has people who came over from Squires and who were participating in the precursor of that. So while there are a lot of newcomers, there are also more “oldcomers” if there’s such a thing. Some of them have a bias against WS because they were the second-tier and Parker was considered more serious - he didn’t accept advertising, etc.
Maybe there’s a vestige of that feeling left. I don’t know.
But if you’re looking for some critic to follow and a critic whose scores might move some wine, I think you’re wasting time. There is not, and probably will not be, another with Parker’s influence.
Thanks, I’m afraid that was my notion as well, precisely, I was hoping I was off base.
I completely agree. What an interesting time it is for the market for high-end Bordeaux. Parker is replacing himself, which will severely reduce the power of WA to influence the market. Plus you have austerity measures in China, leading to a reduced market in a place that seemed to be the great hope of these top Chateaux. Combine that with a recent string of relatively weak vintages. We might see a serious shift in the market for these wines over the next few years. If I were a director of sales or owner of one of these estates, I’d be suffering a lot of sleepless nights right now. Seriously, though, they’ve done it to themselves.
Hi Doug,
if I understand your suggestion or idea correctly, you are suggesting that the Bordelais may bring the prices into a lower range?
I doubt that, (I wish you were even slightly correct) those suggestions had come with the failure of the 2009 & '10 vintage of selling through, the push back from importer, wholesalers and the public in the jump in price for the “finest vintage of my career” being the 2009 and then an even finer vintage in '10.
I sort of lived through that with Ch. Rauzan Segla who we represent and are close enough to the people to know the internal and external dialog, some mighty industry buyers pushed back and the price increase and then John Kolasa (M.D.) convinced the owners of the bad faith in the extreme price increase and they followed with an increase price reduction - much steeper than the industry.
This did not lead to any movement in that direction.
China has pulled back for several reasons so thoroughly and the focus returns to America.
We paid $460/bt E.P. for the 2011 1st Growths, give or take, (memory) , for Ch. Margaux and the 3 successive vintages have produced wines 90 - 93 pt quality.
I’m certain if this new vintage produces some wine superior wines warranting 95, 96 or better which a first growth should have every year, the prices will be back to $600. $700 and so on.
These Chateaux do not care about their customers.
William,
You say that the châteaux do not care about their customers.
I just got back from Burgundy. Holy Moley, have you seen the price increases THERE?
All this is in the great American spirit of making money.
How can you knock such a thing? .-))))
Best regards,
Alex R.
As to your first paragraph, yes, that is what I’m suggesting. I am not confident that they won’t find other buyers, but I don’t think their current channels are getting everything sold at this point, so they will need to figure something out. If they don’t, prices will have to come down. I wonder how much classified growth Bordeaux is currently sitting unsold in the supply chain. I suspect that it’s more than anyone wants to let on. Yes, of course the China situation is more complicated than I made it out to be, but the important thing is the market growth isn’t there the way the Bordelais wanted it to be. It won’t be, from the looks of things. Not at the high end.
I agree with your last sentence. They don’t care about their customers. They will eventually have to care who those customers are, though.
Yes, I agree, - every negociant, importer and wholesaler is sitting on a lot of unsold Bordeaux, although I continue to read Mr. Parker’s notes that say otherwise, I do not know who he is visiting or speaking with?
I wish I could be confident that prices will return to a ‘reasonable level’.
Less and less E.P. is being purchased, why would you pay now for a product to be delivered in 2.5 years when if you wait you can get at the same price of lower and keep your money?
Less and less E.P. is being purchased, why would you pay now for a product to be delivered in 2.5 years when if you wait you can get at the same price of lower and keep your money?
Key point. At one time you bought EP because the price would increase with each tranche. But that’s no longer the case. Whether the current state is the permanent state is an entirely different question.
So some people argue for buying EP to guarantee provenance, but I don’t think that’s a big deal for most people.
The prices for the classified growths and big names are ridiculous. But as you pointed out, it’s not only in Bordeaux that this is the case. People are selling Zinfandel for over $75! And if you start a new vanity project in Napa, your think a base price of $150 a bottle is reasonable and you move up from there.
I think Alex is correct in that for a few weeks all anyone talks about is Bordeaux. But it’s become and abstraction to many people who will never be able to afford the top names. And creating that kind of discussion has done great harm to the region in general because the smaller or lesser-known producers that merit attention don’t get it. That is in fact where a competent reviewer might be useful, but then you get into the problem Bill mentions. The reviewer is in Bordeaux this week and off to Chile next week and then over to the Canary Islands and then back to New Zealand. Or on some other crazy quest.
The flip side of that is that when you get someone who might focus on the area and develop some expertise, how do you keep that person from becoming enamored of the top names and becoming a shill for them?
i don’t know what the rules are, but what if all but the top names just refused to participate in EP? The little guys don’t generate headlines anyway, so what if they don’t participate? Then they’ll just sell their wines like every other region in the world.
I seem to remember reading that there was a 50 year period once when Bordeaux wines prices didn’t go up. Can’t remember if was 1780s to 1830’s or the next century. EP started as a way to get money while they were in elevage. Typical risk sharing between producers and consumers of an agricultural commodity.
Sometime in the last 15 years, that risk sharing element got lost, as corporates start buying estates, not as agricultural investments, but as trophy/luxury/halo portfolio holdings.
Like everything, the cycle will turn, and perhaps we are just seeing the beginnings of it now, if William Gladstones lamentations about the unsold oceans of Bordeaux are true.
I don’t know. All these seem like concerns of those who are in the trade, or need to profitably flip wines, to support their otherwise unsustainable purchases – The old buy 2 cases cases, and sell one to drink for free gambit!
I apologize for the years since your comment - I just noticed your comment included your question to me.
Neal’s review’s and scores have a huge impact on my life, my professional work, (now that he has moved to VINOUS - that affect is less so),
A Wine Advocate score of 100 pts versus 99 points raises or lowers the market price by 20 - 35%.
Look at Screaming EAgle or SCARECROW, 2015 versus 2016 market prices.
So that affects our business a great deal as we work on 10 - 15%.
I do not enjoy his writing style, he is a millennial and that generation tends to look at the world placing themselves in the center of the universe and the world they write about revolves around their past and present.
I find that view of the world annoying. I also find he will frequently use words to describe a wine flavour that are more designed to show off then meant to describe for the reader.
That view is some of his reviews. And some times he is quite accurate in his descriptions and right to the point with excellent descriptive notes. Perhaps more restrained with his words and descriptions.
I imagine he is young and learning his craft, that he has had many opportunities to learn and over come his original lack of experience and training.
He is given entree to so many amazing tastings, in London, France and other parts of the world, that if you continue to taste and read and write it becomes 2nd nature.
In my professional career I’ve learned that the palette is like any other sense of muscle, that you can train and really focus in with excellence.
Look at the Curry family and their unequaled ability of shooting basketballs with accuracy. Muscle memory is not different than that of tasting.
My personal taste is i do not enjoy all of the superfluous information I have to get through about his music interests or other comments that do not seem attractive, interesting or helpful to me.
I think he has learned quite a bit and is able to provide excellent descriptions of the wine.
Apologies that I did not see your question before.
Hey man, four years late is better than never!
Awesome move!
Stick around and post more often than every few years!
Well thank you,
Although I’m careful in wading in as bringing out hostile replies seems all too common,
so I do appreciate your welcoming invite.
Aloha
William
Hmm… I wonder why.
Also, Neal Martin is a Gen-Xer, not a Millennial. But who’s paying attention to details?
Interesting, because in my life experience the qualities I am speaking of I find in the 25 - early 40’s age range.
I do not know Neal’s age, and do not care, I stand by my view of his approach to writing.
Thanks for the facts.
Just fyi before anyone posts something they may regret, neal was recently diagnosed with serious heart disease and is recovering from a quadruple bypass.
Yes - it was mentioned on another thread. Neal is good people and I hope he’s going to be OK and will be able to enjoy wine again very soon.
Here’s wishing him all the best.
William - don’t worry about hostility. Some of it may just be interpretation - in print things can seem more strident than they would sound in a conversation. Just go ahead and post.
As an aside, Wikipedia lists his birthday as February 1971. So at 48, he’s no longer that young William.