Beer people: Should we be talking about Malt?

It seems the craft beer movement is seriously geeking-out about hops these days. I like that, and have no complaints. Just want to be clear on that.

Now, on to my thought of the day — that’s right, I only have one per day, so I try to make it count. Help me out here.

I just got done drinking an English Strong Pale Ale made with American hops (Cascade). It was advertised as being very hoppy, with citrus aromas, blah blah blah. It clocked-in at 5.2% abv, fwiw. Basically, this beer was advertised as an American-style hoppy ale. It failed to live up to those promises. I’ve had lots of these types of beers since moving out here — American hops, advertised as “American-style ___ Ale”, varying degrees of alcohol — but NONE* of them have really pulled-off the style.
* I will say, The Kernel Brewery (out of London) has pulled of the style quite well, and would probably be the one exception to what I say above.


So, this got me thinking (partially out of frustration, partially out of simple curiosity): Why is it that English brewers simply fail at their attempts to mimic the super-hoppy American beer styles?
Is it differing water sources?
Probably not the water, I think, as there’s plenty of variance amongst American water sources, yet American brewers from New York to California to Florida to Washington to Michigan all brew fantastically wonderful hoppy beers.

Is it different hops?
No.

Is it a difference in alcohol levels?
I don’t think so. I’ve now had plenty of 5%, 6%, 7%+ English beers advertising themselves as “American style ___ Ale” – hoppy, blah blah blah – that simply don’t compare. It’s not the abv.

So, what’s left?

Is it the amount of hops?
Maybe.

Or, is it the type of malt being used?
I don’t know, but I suspect this might be the case. I’ve never really paid attention to the kind of malt used in the beers I drink, but perhaps I should? Just when I thought I was starting to get a grip on the flavor profiles of the different hop varieties, this curveball enters the game. I don’t know if American brewers and English brewers use the same malt. I assume they don’t because they taste different from each other, even when the same hops are used and when the same abv. is achieved.

So, should we beer geeks be geeking about malt just as much as we do about hops? I really don’t know, but am very curious to hear the thoughts of others who may have more insight than I on this matter. [drinkers.gif]

neener

I usually get raked by you hop heads for saying these things. Good you are finally seeing/hearing it dude! [cheers.gif]

Paging Rick Allen. Paging Rick Allen.

This is really a good question but admit I have virtually no experience try English brews that are trying to be hoppy American brews. I have heard that the barley grown for brewing comes from a small % of areas growing grains but have no knowledge of why.

Edit to add this link: Brooks on Beer: Locavore beer – The Mercury News. The article is about Localvore beer but does mention the use of malt in brewing.

Before I can even throw in my 2 cents, I’d line to ask Brian a question:

What is it that you feel that you’re not getting as much, bitterness, hop aromas or hop flavor (different from bitterness)?

All of the above, but hop flavor and bitterness moreso than hop aromas. I’ve had lots of beers that smelled like they were going to deliver, but then didn’t. Other beers (such as the one I mention in my OP), despite being advertised in the way I describe above, strike out on bitterness, hop aromas, and hop flavor.

Don’t know if you’re aware of how hop additions to the wort boil work, but just in case:

The earlier the hop (pellets or cones) are added to the boil, the more bitterness is imparted; inversely, later additions (closer to flame-out) will impart aromas and flavor. Also, and this is a BIG factor, different types of hops have different % levels of AA & BA (alpha acids & beta acids) that are the predominant source of bitterness & aroma, respectively. In the US, land of bigger & more more more, many hop varieties used are pushing the boundaries of acid % (with some lab-developed varieties landing in the 15% range and over) while the “noble” hops of the UK (Fuggles, East Kent Goldings) fall well below the 10% mark for AA.

The UK beers you’ve been drinking that lack that bite you SOOOOOOOO love (effing Racer 5) are probably made with these “tamer” hops.

Don’t really think malt type is as big a factor as you might be thinking, since these huge 100+ IBU triple IPAs usually have a massive grain bill. Simple answer is that brewers use a boatload of hops at different intervals of the brewing process.

But, the beers to which I am referring are NOT ones using “tamer” hops; they are using hops such as Cascade, Amarillo, Nelson Sauvin, Citra, Centennial, and Chinook. Now, perhaps some of those hops are “tamer,” but I know for a fact that some of them aren’t.

You might be onto something with the idea about the timing of the hop additions, although I don’t think that can be the whole explanation; many of the beers I’m complaining about simply don’t have the hop bitterness, aroma, or flavor they advertise. Now, to be fair, many of these beers are significantly hoppier than many of their English brethren, but they simply don’t hold a candle to their American brethren.

Quantities buddy…quantities. If they are using the “bigger” hops, they sure as heck are probably flying them in. Hops aren’t cheap. The UK breweries are probably using a fraction of their US counterparts. But in essence, going back to your original query, malts don’t really play a role in the conundrum you have brought forth…in my opinion.

So, does the malt used not make a big difference in flavor profile? Is there even a wide range of malt options? I’m not asking these questions to argue against your “quantities” answer — in fact, I suspect you’re right — “quantity” was one of the two reasonable answers I could think of to answer the question I posed in my OP.

We see some brewers coming out with “Single Hop” series; would it be equally interesting for a brewery to come out with a range of beers where the beers are all the same except for what kind of malt is used?

Brian,

Different malts absolutely change the flavor profile of a beer (but have little bearing on the bitterness imparted by hops…although some malts can impart sweeter notes than others). As for your theoretical experiment of “same” beers keeping all their components equal except for the malt(s), it’s kind of an exercise in futility because once you change the base malt(s), you are in effect changing the beer style (i.e. a pale malt based beer will never be the “same” as a pilsner malt based beer even if all the other components remain the same). Comprende?

A couple of thoughts:
Jorge is probably right about hop quantities. I imagine it’s rather expensive to get American hops there. Not only is the supply chain a lot longer, but I imagine that the chance for “hop abuse” is much higher. For example, hops should be at least refrigerated until used. Were they refrigerated the whole trip? How about when they were in quarantine?

That said, malt can make a difference, as it affects the balance of the beer. In addition, English brewers are more likely to use ingredients in their Bitters/Pales Ales/IPAs, such as maltose (malting sugar not even sold in this country), corn, flaked barley, amber malt etc, that you wouldn’t see in North American beers. Unless they are importing American malt (not likely), they are also using maltier base malts, as European 2-row malt is maltier than American 2-row. On the other hand, a number of American brewers do use Maris Otter (British) malt in their beers.

Water may make a difference, as hard water tends to emphasize hop bitterness at the expense of hop aroma and flavor. Soft water makes it easier to get the hop flavor and aroma balance while controlling the hop bitterness. In the U.S., places with lousy water run it through a reverse osmosis system to get soft water and then add back minerals to the desired hardness. It’s worth noting that many U.S. places know as hot beds for brewing (the Pacific NW/Northern CA, Colorado, the Upper Midwest, New York) have relatively good (soft) water to begin with.

Gotcha. So, the difference between malts sounds like it is quite drastic. Are there not different kinds of pilsner malts, or pale malts?

Interesting post, Rick. Thank you.

what you say about cost makes sense, and helps explain why the beers from The Kernel Brewery are so damn expensive (i.e.: $5 - $8 per 330mL bottle).

Yes there are…but I’m guessing not enough to put your experiment to the test.

Here you Brian:

Hope you get a kick out of this.

When I started brewing test beers for the brewery, I brewed 14 batches of Pils in a row using different yeast and malt. Everything I tried using was labelled as “Pilsner Malt”, and there were huge differences in flavor between the various kinds. Right now we use two different kinds of Pilsner malt in our beer, with each one bringing a different element to the final product.

You guys probably forget as much as I know about the brewing process and I find this to be a very educational thread, so thanks for that. BUT…I was talking with the owners of Alpine who I hold in very high esteem and they literally said they use body bag sized hop bags several times during the brewing process of their IPA and DIPA brews. So to a degree I guess it holds true that size does matter.

Cheers…

I wish their beers were more widely available up here. They do a nice job of making balanced traditional styled beers which is opposite of most of the SD scene.

Sure sure, but how big are their batches? A body-sized bag of hops into one billion gallons is less hops than a little baggie into a single barrel.

From looking at the equipment on their website, I’d say that they are brewing on a 10 to 14 barrel system. A body-sized hop bag would be pretty damned big for that sized batch. It says that they brew at least some doubles, but even at that level, it’s a lot of hops - at least 2 pounds/BBL and probably more. In contrast, my hoppiest beer uses about 1.25 pounds/BBL.

Rick, do you make anything close in style to west coast IPA’s?