Asimov on vintages

[Brady_Daniels]

I liked the Asimov article, and agreed with almost all of it.

I suspect 2005 burgs will be excellent some day, but have no doubt that more bottles of 2002 and 2010 will provide joy over their lives. And I’m still buying 2017’s for the same reason.

[LasseK1]

I don’t care about vintage ratings. I care about the type of vintage.
A lot of vintages between 2015-2019 has been rated highly around Europe’s regions, but most of the years have been very warm, so i have avoided a lot of wines in these vintages (2016 has been my go to in many regions).
Overall there seem to be an overrating of warm years.

So i do put a lot of weight on the vintage, just not ratings. That said of cause there are producers you buy from every year, but even from those i buy less quantities if it is a “warm” year.

[Mark_Golodetz]

Which critic rated 2013 Bordeaux better than 2011?

[Peter_Chiu]

Always interesting to consider. It seems to me that what makes the most sense is to concentrate on the top producers in every vintage, and enjoy and appreciate the different characteristics and traits of each vintage for what they are.

And yet, through my years of buying and cellaring Burgundy, I have done the opposite. I have saved my money during “lesser” vintages so that I could afford the better wines from the top producers in the vintages that would, supposedly at least, reward cellaring the most…and more of them, to boot.
And, when it became apparent that a relatively overlooked vintage was better than initially thought, I backfilled…and usually at more reasonable prices.

And yet, I realize that this might not have been the best course to follow. (Will I live to see all those 2005’s mature? I hope so.)
But unless you have an unlimited budget, some concessions have to be made. Even in lesser vintages, the grand crus from top producers are pricey, and you may have to choose between fewer vintages or fewer producers or fewer bottles.

Am I glad I bought heavily in 1999? Yes. Am I glad I bought some but carefully in 1995 and 1998? Yes. Do I wish I had purchased some 2000’s? Yes. Am I glad I could find and backfill the 2001’s I skipped? Yes. Was I right to go crazy in 2005? I hope so, but we shall see. Was I right to go crazy in 2010? I believe so. Am I glad I skipped 2004 entirely? YES! Was I so worn out after 2005 that I pretty much skipped 2006 and 2007? Yes. Am I glad I skipped 2008 because they for the most part did not do it for me? Yes.

Again, I’m not saying this is the ideal approach, but just how I chose to allocate my funds…for better or worse.

Very nice comments and I generally agree with what you said except: your top producers may not be my top producers. How about producers whom you prefer their style - bearing in mind that most consider DRC and Rousseau are top producers. But at the end of my wine life…I switch to …

Just for friendly discussion :are you missing your experience of drinking some 2004 crafted by your top producers ? Was there any harm by just buy check how they evolve over time ( repeat : evole over time ) ? What I mean is - skip the whole vintage 2004 - means you maybe missing something entirely. Life is sometimes that the enjoy counts …

[Jayson_Cohen]

My take on the article.

It’s basically right.

It’s not meant for most people here. We are not the target audience. Even though we talk about vintages all the time, per the recent threads on vintages and countless more on this Boatd and others, we all know and are largely going to agree with what he said. Vintage generalizations are often wrong or based on a different palate, and we know it.

Further thoughts. There is a difference between tasting a particular vintage from a particular place and deciding to skip it, and just buying rote using paper vintage ratings someone else publishes. I do the former regularly. There is also nothing wrong with skipping or skimping on a vintage for financial reasons. And certainly one can reverse course based on later experience, like many of us did with 2000 Burgundy and I have done in other vintages elsewhere where I bought the early read or was out of the market for other reasons.

I would love to support every winery I love every vintage at some level, but it would mean financial ruin and likely divorce. Vintage choices and skimps are two arrows in the quiver of solvency.

[john_stimson]

Interesting read, and I sort of agree, but only with regard to the “medium” vintages. A good part of the message to me is, don’t listen to the critics. They can pan vintages that will turn out pretty good, and they tend to gloss over serious defects (read 2004 red burg). In Washington, 2011 vintage got panned, and yet that cool, difficult vintage has yielded some of the very best wines in the state in the last 20 years.

But there are clearly vintages that are worth skipping, even at the best estates. Of the few estates that I try to buy in most years, am I sorry that I didn’t buy more 2003 Dauvissat Chablis? No. Do I wish that I bought less 2006? Yes. Do I wish that I had loaded up on 2001 Volanys, or 2003 red burgs? No. Do I wish that I didn’t skip 2004 red burg? No.

So should I in fact have bought Dauvissat, or d’Angerville every year no matter what? Not in my mind. But did I do well by buying fairly significantly into vintages that were felt to be middling (2000, 2001, 2007, 2008 in red burg)? I tend to think so.

[Greg_K]

There is no bad vintage in Burgundy if you buy wines from you prefer producers.

This just isn’t true. Plenty of my favorite producers made bad 2003s, 2004s, 2011s and 2018s reds, just for some obvious easy vintage references.

It is true that wine is, to a certain extent, an intellectual hobby, but ultimately I have to and want to drink the wine. I would much rather drink another 2002 red burgundy than see how some 03 or 04s are developing.

As Jayson notes, we’re resource constrained, so buying every vintage as if they’re all great is a losing proposition. Vintage is not destiny, but neither is wine made by a good producer. I like to think I’m pretty good at my job, but I make mistakes too - no reason to think good producers don’t either.

[Robert_Grenley]

If I traveled to Burgundy every year, and if I had the “in” to taste at my favorite producers, and if I had the ability to accurately assess and predict quality based on barrel samples (the biggest “if” of all!), then I never would have had to rely as much on wine writers to guide my buying. And although they are certainly not infallible, I have been fairly well-guided in choosing which vintages to pursue over the years before my favorite producers’ wines disappeared or escalated in price. Back when I was still buying White Burgundies, in the pre-premox days, I was able to avoid the over ripe and tropical vintages, and in Red Burgundy was able to mainly avoid the too-warm or overly lean vintages. Of course, tastings of the earlier appearing wines helped to confirm my impressions of the vintage. I didn’t much like the 2011s and 2013 reds much, for example, and largely avoided buying. Although I may have missed a few good wines here and there, that’s fine.
BTW, as an exception, I did tend to buy my fave Rousseau in most vintages…at least if I could find them at “normal” pricing.

As was already said, buying every vintage may be a worthwhile intellectual exercise, but limited funds might be better allocated towards one’s enjoyment.

[GregT]

Shocked this hasn’t already appeared on the board, or maybe I missed it… I generally agree with Asimov on this topic, so I’m probably an outlier here in that I rarely use vintage in making purchase decisions, leaning much more towards region/producer/varietal. Thoughts? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/dining/drinks/wine-vintages.html?smid=url-share

I, on the other hand, consider the vintage to be of great importance.

I, too, purchase by region, producer or variety, but since I dislike ripe / soft / sweet / jammy wines, I tend to skip the warmer vintages. Unless I get to taste the wines beforehand, I often skip the vintages that are warm or hot and concentrate on the cooler vintages. However, I really don’t care about vintage ratings, as vintages I like are seldom rated high. However, quite often vintages that are universally rated as top vintages are of high quality in my books as well.

Agree with this. And there have been a few times where a wine maker I respect has said that the vintage may not be so great, but I’ve found the wines good anyway. And then after a few years, I realized that he was right and the wines didn’t hold up. So the knowledge of the wine maker and the vineyard matter, but the vintage absolutely matters as well.

(And nice “subtle” correction in the response.)

[Peter_Chiu]

There is no bad vintage in Burgundy if you buy wines from you prefer producers.

This just isn’t true. Plenty of my favorite producers made bad 2003s, 2004s, 2011s and 2018s reds, just for some obvious easy vintage references.

It is true that wine is, to a certain extent, an intellectual hobby, but ultimately I have to and want to drink the wine. I would much rather drink another 2002 red burgundy than see how some 03 or 04s are developing.

As Jayson notes, we’re resource constrained, so buying every vintage as if they’re all great is a losing proposition. Vintage is not destiny, but neither is wine made by a good producer. I like to think I’m pretty good at my job, but I make mistakes too - no reason to think good producers don’t either.

Thanks for your comments…

Guess it is my mistake as I treat my wines as if they were my children. I love them all…just the same !!

[Peter_Chiu]

If I traveled to Burgundy every year, and if I had the “in” to taste at my favorite producers, and if I had the ability to accurately assess and predict quality based on barrel samples (the biggest “if” of all!), then I never would have had to rely as much on wine writers to guide my buying. And although they are certainly not infallible, I have been fairly well-guided in choosing which vintages to pursue over the years before my favorite producers’ wines disappeared or escalated in price. Back when I was still buying White Burgundies, in the pre-premox days, I was able to avoid the over ripe and tropical vintages, and in Red Burgundy was able to mainly avoid the too-warm or overly lean vintages. Of course, tastings of the earlier appearing wines helped to confirm my impressions of the vintage. I didn’t much like the 2011s and 2013 reds much, for example, and largely avoided buying. Although I may have missed a few good wines here and there, that’s fine.
BTW, as an exception, I did tend to buy my fave Rousseau in most vintages…at least if I could find them at “normal” pricing.

As was already said, buying every vintage may be a worthwhile intellectual exercise, but limited funds might be better allocated towards one’s enjoyment.

Robert…thanks for your clarifications. You are lucky. I am the opposite. I have no access of the in and worst the more I know and try to learn more about Burgundy - the more I failed.

****BTW, as an exception, I did tend to buy my fave Rousseau in most vintages…at least if I could find them at “normal” pricing. as was already said, buying every vintage may be a worthwhile intellectual exercise, but limited funds might be better allocated towards one’s enjoyment. ****

Very well said…

[Greg_K]

There is no bad vintage in Burgundy if you buy wines from you prefer producers.

This just isn’t true. Plenty of my favorite producers made bad 2003s, 2004s, 2011s and 2018s reds, just for some obvious easy vintage references.

It is true that wine is, to a certain extent, an intellectual hobby, but ultimately I have to and want to drink the wine. I would much rather drink another 2002 red burgundy than see how some 03 or 04s are developing.

As Jayson notes, we’re resource constrained, so buying every vintage as if they’re all great is a losing proposition. Vintage is not destiny, but neither is wine made by a good producer. I like to think I’m pretty good at my job, but I make mistakes too - no reason to think good producers don’t either.

Thanks for your comments…

Guess it is my mistake as I treat my wines as if they were my children. I love them all…just the same !!

Do you drink wines that are tainted with TCA? Or white burgundies that have premoxed? If you don’t, then you don’t treat your wines the same.

[Andy_Sc]

I totally agree, it‘s a must to drink your producers and wines in all vintages to understand them. Still, I won‘t buy much more than what I need for one or two verticals in weaker vintages and just very few bottles in medium, often early drinking vintages (but I hope that once my cellar is mature, I don‘t need early drinking vintages anymore).

I‘ve done my fair share of blind verticals and the top vintages always come out top, usually simply because of their depth (more so than the structure). That doesn‘t mean that the Cheval Blanc 2011 isn‘t great but just not as good as 82, 90, 09, 10, 15 or 16 (but on par with 00 (overhyped vintage) and 05 (they need time)).

[Peter_Chiu]

Greg…I understand your point. Needless to say : I do not drink wines that the tainted with TCA or white which are promoxed.

I agree with you if all the wines from the producers from the same vintage year were all tainted or all promoxed. BTW…I used to like and buy white burgundy; but now, very little …as I switch to Trapiche Chardonnay from Argentina.

To continue …may I guess the following : *This just isn’t true. Plenty of my favorite producers made bad 2003s, 2004s, 2011s and 2018s reds, just for some obvious easy vintage references.

I do not know what exact was the reason which you believe that your favourite producers made bad 2003s, 2004s, 2011s and 2018s red.

Is there a possibility that maybe the general character ( repeat : general character ) of each of the particular vintage year - do not go well with the style of your favourite producers ?

Then…there is a possibility that you are right in that your favourite producers …made a bad judgement call…and made bad wines in 2003, 2004, 2011 and 2018.

[Peter_Chiu]

I totally agree, it‘s a must to drink your producers and wines in all vintages to understand them. Still, I won‘t buy much more than what I need for one or two verticals in weaker vintages and just very few bottles in medium, often early drinking vintages (but I hope that once my cellar is mature, I don‘t need early drinking vintages anymore).

I‘ve done my fair share of blind verticals and the top vintages always come out top, usually simply because of their depth (more so than the structure). That doesn‘t mean that the Cheval Blanc 2011 isn‘t great but just not as good as 82, 90, 09, 10, 15 or 16 (but on par with 00 (overhyped vintage) and 05 (they need time)).

[Greg_K]

Is there a possibility that maybe the general character ( repeat : general character ) of each of the particular vintage year - do not go well with the style of your favourite producers ?

Then…there is a possibility that you are right in that your favourite producers …made a bad judgement call…and made bad wines in 2003, 2004, 2011 and 2018.

Right, as I said, there are bad wines even if you stick to your favorite producers, because vintages are different. You’re agreeing with me and disagreeing with your original premise.

[bradkaplan]

Serious naive question - who are the consumers who Asimov is referring to that are slavish to vintage ratings? Mainly Bordeaux collectors? This is such a thin slice of the wine drinker population and certainly doesn’t have relevance to the wine drinker that he’s typically addressing in things like his 20 under $20.

[Peter_Chiu]

Greg…here is what I wrote : There is no bad vintage in Burgundy if you buy wines from you prefer producers.

[HoosJustinG]

I generally agree with “don’t listen to the critics,” at least without the benefit of significant hindsight. But - especially in the old world IME - there are objectively terrible vintages. I think the practical upshot of this is, especially if you’re buying at auction/secondary, don’t buy the overhyped “vintage of the decade” because it almost never lives up to the hype (while it is priced to the hype) … just focus on the unremarkable - but not terrible - vintages, and buy from good producers.

[Wes_Barton]

Is there a possibility that maybe the general character ( repeat : general character ) of each of the particular vintage year - do not go well with the style of your favourite producers ?

Then…there is a possibility that you are right in that your favourite producers …made a bad judgement call…and made bad wines in 2003, 2004, 2011 and 2018.

Right, as I said, there are bad wines even if you stick to your favorite producers, because vintages are different. You’re agreeing with me and disagreeing with your original premise.

What parameters are you going by? I’ve had favorite producers who were low knowledge folks with great terroir. Taste through their line-up and there’s always something great (like, one of the six wines). I’ve had wines from great sites that routinely stood up to demonstrably bad winemaking. In this day and age there isn’t much excuse to release bad wines. Is that judging by your preferences? I’ve had wines from “bad” vintages that didn’t show well on release or some time thereafter, but bloomed with moderate age. While there’s no reason to feel compelled to buy a wine you don’t trust will age well, writing if off as bad, based on a snapshot, may be a mistake. Oddly, I’ve found over and over wines that got a bad market reputation start hitting the market at bargain prices the same time they come around and start drinking well. If you now taste an '11 you passed on, from a favorite producer, and enjoy it now - sure it’s light, and pales in comparison to the '05 version, which won’t be ready for 15 years - but, you can buy some for $40 and enjoy it immensely as a casual drinker, a Tuesday wine, and the '05s are $200 special occasion wines. Well, that’s a point of the article.

But, the advice of buying by producer is more about highly skilled producers. Able to meet vintage challenges. Having the ethics to not release crap wines, to declassify inferior wines. So, there’s that…