Are there any wines that exist which try to replicate what ancient wines may have tasted like?

[Michael_Martin]

I read a recipe for wine during the Roman Empire. It contained sea water.

[Guillermo_M]

How long would those half-filled barrels last there?

Without some sort of flor, wouldn’t that be like selling wine that’s been opened for all that time? (Except the first few taps).

[Peter_Kleban]

No idea how long a barrel lasted. We didn’t drink much of it!

[Wes_Barton]

I’ve read of using oil for that purpose.

[Guillermo_M]

Interesting. Conceptually sound unless any of the compounds in wine are oil soluble which I don’t know.

[Mel_Knox]

Au Bon Climat Hildegard re creates a blend from the time of Charlemagne…. Ages v well

[David_K_o_l_i_n]

A winery in Israel’s Negev dessert is looking into making Byzantine wines from Byzantine grapes. See today’s NYT article (if you have access)

[Steve_Slatcher]

@Noah_C

This answer is more about ancient grape varieties than vinification techniques. Zorah in Armenia is making wine from the Areni grape, which traces its origin back 6000+ years. They claim it’s likely the oldest varietal being produced today. There is a fascinating I’ll Drink To That podcast episode on it.

Areni is the name of a village that gave its name to the Areni caves where a 6,000 year old winery was found.

There’s also a variety called Areni Noir, but as far as I know there is no evidence to date that variety back to the age of the winery, More than that, I don’t think there is currently any way of determining varieties from traces of grapes and wines 1,000s of years old.

If you have a source saying anything different I’d be very interesting in seeing it, but I suspect what you saw/heard was wishful speculation on the part of Zorah.

What you you can do is get an idea of the age of varieties by using DNA to determine parent/child relationships. The oldest wine varieties seem to be related to wild varieties of the South Caucasus, and only of the South Caucasus. I’m not sure about Areni Noir, but various Georgian wine grape varieties are very old.

The qvevri methods of winemaking in Georgia are very old too, and they seem to have a continuous history going back 8,000 years, even if those methods evolved slightly in that timeframe - so they don’t “try to replicate the taste of ancient wines”, but to an exent they do so naturally. Armenia also has similar traditions, but winemaking was not so big there, and they had a bit of a hiatus under the Soviets, who wanted Armenia to concentrate more on making spirits.

[Noah_C]

@Steve_Slatcher

there is no evidence to date that variety back to the age of the winery, More than that, I don’t think there is currently any way of determining varieties from traces of grapes and wines 1,000s of years old.

If you have a source saying anything different I’d be very interesting in seeing it, but I suspect what you saw/heard was wishful speculation on the part of Zorah.

I got this information from three places. I first learned about it from a mailing from SommSelect, which admittedly is trying to sell wine, but nonetheless, here it is:

“In the late 2000s, a UCLA research team, alongside Armenia’s Institute of Archaeology, went deep into the highlands of Armenia’s Vayots Dzor and discovered the remains of a 6,100-year-old winery, the world’s earliest known wine production site. They found rudimentary wine presses and crumbling fermentation jars, all of which were covered in brittle grape stems/seeds/pips that were traced to Areni Noir. Zorik had not only built his winery across the way from the world’s oldest winery, but he was also planting and bottling the exact same grape from all those millennia ago!”

Second source was Zorah’s website, which says this about their Karasi bottling which is 100% Areni:
"Possibly one of the oldest grape varieties in the world Areni has been present in Armenia for millennia. In fact in the archaeological excavations of Areni Cave in Vayotz Dzor, Armenia ( dating back 6000 years) pips and stems were unearthed, carbon dated and the DNA analysed. It was established that the modern day Areni variety can be traced back to these ancient pips. "

Third source was Levi Dalton’s I’ll Drink To That podcast, which I mentioned above. I remember Zorik Gharibian (Zorah’s founder) recalling the same story mentioned in the SommSelect blurb above- that he was making wine from local Areni Noir for a few years and then pips from the same grapes were found in the 6000 year old winery across the street. (It’s been a while since I listened to this specific episode though, so it’s possible I’m wrong. I’ve mistakenly misquoted IDTT before.)

@Steve_Slatcher

I don’t think there is currently any way of determining varieties from traces of grapes and wines 1,000s of years old.

That absolutely can be done. That is exactly the method described in the NYTimes article I cited above that compared DNA in modern day Savagnin with DNA recovered from 900 year old seeds. Here’s the primary source:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41477-019-0437-5

[Guillermo_M]

@Noah_C

…

Second source was Zorah’s website, which says this about their Karasi bottling which is 100% Areni:
"Possibly one of the oldest grape varieties in the world Areni has been present in Armenia for millennia. In fact in the archaeological excavations of Areni Cave in Vayotz Dzor, Armenia ( dating back 6000 years) pips and stems were unearthed, carbon dated and the DNA analysed. It was established that the modern day Areni variety can be traced back to these ancient pips. "
…

“Can be traced back” isn’t the same as genetically identical or virtually genetically identical. Chardonnay is an offspring of Pinot Noir and can be traced back to it. Same with Cab and Sauvignon Blanc. Yet the profiles are dramatically different.

The question here is what they mean by tracing back between modern Areni and the ancient pips.

[Steve_Slatcher]

Thank you for that - I’ll check out those references and try to trace them back to the archeology.

I’ll also check from how far back DNA can the anslysed, but in the meantime I’d point out there is a heck of a difference between 900 and 6,000-8,000 years.

[Steve_Slatcher]

@Steve_Slatcher

I’ll also check from how far back DNA can the anslysed, but in the meantime I’d point out there is a heck of a difference between 900 and 6,000-8,000 years.

I’ve just checked. I cannot find anyone having analysed DNA from grape remains several millenia old. Sometimes it hs been possible to speculate about the variety using ampelography - the shape of the seeds in this case - but no more. OTH I must admit no one has said it is impossible!

I also found this article, where Caroline Gilby writes “These venerable vines are an indigenous Armenian variety called Areni or Areni Noir. It’s been traced back to medieval vines from an abandoned monastery site, but may be much older, and has no identified parentage” and also “No one knows how old these vines are, but I’d like to think they are channelling the spirit of Armenia’s 6000-year wine history.”

WWC21 – Zorah, Armenia

My conclusion is that there is no firm evidence to say Areni Noir was around 6000 years ago. But how much does it really matter? As Caroline Gilby says, it’s a nice thought anyway.

[Noah_C]

@Steve_Slatcher

a heck of a difference between 900 and 6,000-8,000 years

True, though this exchange prompted me to Google “Oldest DNA” and I found a story of DNA (or at least snipets of DNA) being isolated from 15,000 year old human remains, 100,000 year old Neanderthals, and 1,000,000 year old mammoth teeth dug out of the permafrost. But I’m no DNA expert, so I’m entirely going off of google.

Thanks for the article from Caroline Gilby. I agree, at the end of the day, not sure it really matters. Though it certainly is interesting to wonder about.

[Steve_Slatcher]

Yeah, I rely on “internet research” too, but over the last few years I have been making a point of learning about the neolithic finds in the South Caucasus

I think it probably depends on how the biological remains are preserved. I found a few references to carbonised grape seeds in the neolithic finds, but perhaps there is hope if seeds are found in better locations.

I happend to meet a reknowned palaeobotanist earlier this year. I bet she knows the answers, and I will ask her if I get a chance.

[Noah_C]

@Steve_Slatcher

I happend to meet a reknowned palaeobotanist earlier this year. I bet she knows the answers, and I will ask her if I get a chance.

We need more paleobotanists on this board.

[Al_Osterheld]

Invite Ellie Sattler?

-Al

[Otto_Forsberg]

How old a wine or wine style needs to be before it is “ancient”?

After all, you can drink Madeira from the 1700’s and Tokaji from the 1600’s even today. I’d consider them quite ancient.

But as Steve said, the Georgian kvevri wines are probably as ancient as ancient wines are gonna get. Sure, there are lots of producers today making very modern kvevri wines that are fined, filtered, probably even aged in oak at some point and finally sulfited. However, there are many naturalist producers who make very minimal-interventionist wines that are most likely very similar to wines made in Georgia a thousand (or even thousands of) years ago.

I have no idea how old a variety Areni actually is, but I don’t know if there are any traditionalist producers in Armenia. At least all the Arenis I’ve tasted have been very contemporary in style. But if you are looking for old varieties that are still grown today, Muscat is definitely one of the oldest that is still around. Gouais Blanc too, but it’s so seldom grown that finding a bottle might be a chore. Savagnin and Pinot (Noir) have been around for a very long time as well. And Malvasia di Candia.

[Guillermo_M]

Commandaria, especially if you can get an unfortified one, would probably fit the bill too.

[Peter_Kleban]

Fiano, a white common in Campania and Sicily dates at least from the Romans and maybe even the Ancient Greeks. I know, a baby compared to the Georgian mentioned, but even so. No idea how it tastes compared to the ancients tho. In any case it can be very good.

[Wes_Barton]

I agree Georgian winemaking is a good place to look for the oldest practices still being utilized. From there, we should segregate the processing and fermentation stages from preservation methods. I mean, locals would be drinking fresh harvest wine to young still stable wines for a period of the year. As now with now, nouveau or harvest wine may be made differently for the different intent than wines meant to consume over the next year plus, or as export products, but they’re still legitimate.

On the DNA front, I’m curious if any of the ancient varieties grow true from seed. I’m sure someone could write a long thesis on the point, but if any do, I think that would be an extremely strong case for dating back to a region’s original wine production.