Are the best Clos de Vougeots as good as the top wines from Vosne, Chambolle and Gevrey?

[ybarselah]

where can i see a holdings/producer map of clos vougeots?

[Henry_Kiichli]

@ybarselah

where can i see a holdings/producer map of clos vougeots?

Clive Coates’ book

[Peter_Chiu]

@Henry Kiichli

@ybarselah

where can i see a holdings/producer map of clos vougeots?

Clive Coates’ book

Inside Buugundy by Jasper Morris. There is map and also a very uup-to-date list of all the land owners. -

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Lewis Dawson

Mark, rankings are odious at this level, IMO, but if I were to rank the grand crus, I could not put upper-slope Clos Vougeot at the same level as Musigny, Chambertin, or Richebourg.

I couldn’t either, but 100 years ago everybody did, and they probably had a good reason for it. My hunch is that if it were possible to taste a Clos Vougeot today made from the entire vineyard, we’d have a better understanding of why it used to be so highly regarded.

[Gerhard_P]

@Mark Golodetz

Therefore let’s assume that we are talking about a top producer, who knows what he/she is doing. Are there any areas of CV wines, where the wines will be the equal of a Mugnier Musigny, a Rousseau Chambertin or a DRC Richebourg?

Seriously,
I do not think that the most able producers - let´s take DRC for instance - are capable of producing the same high quality from the best parcels in CV … as they do from RC, LT, RSV, Rb … or Mugnier from Musigny, Rousseau from Chambertin or Beze …
BUT
Grands Echezeaux, Bonnes Mares, Clos de la Roche, Mazy-Chambertin is another matter - here I would say: YES, absolutely possible.

Please do not forget that many Chambertins are not worth the name either …

[Rex_Northen]

@Peter Chiu

@Rex Northen

I’ve had a couple vintages of Leroy Clos Vougeot and they have been stunning!

Rex…I did comparative tastings in vintage 1995 with Leroy many g-crus. For example…her Musigny, Riche, RSV ( no Chambertin ) and CdV and the levels of difference in quality is quite evident. .

Peter, I’ve not tasted side by side, but it is interesting to me that you taste such a noticeable qualitative difference. I reviewed Meadows’ notes and since 01 or so, Clos Vougeot has been very close to RB and RSV in his scores. In 2009, he scores CV 2 pts higher than RB; in 2008 he scores the CV above RB and in 2007 he rates RB and RSV one point better than CV…

David S at WA rated the 07 CV above the 07 RB, equivalent to the RSV and only one point below the Musigny and Chambertin… In 2008 he rated the CV above Musigny and RB…

Perhaps Leroy’s CV has improved since 95?

[zachary_l_a_n_g]

@Michel Abood

I’ve had some glorious older Clos Vougeots.

They must have been under 10 yrs. old!

[alan_weinberg]

@Peter Chiu

When the monks were the sole owner of CdV, they often said the lower part was for the poor, the middle part for the bishops and only the upper part was fit for their Highness : the Pope.

where did you read that–or are you that old? I always thought they blended the entire vineyard.
alan

[Nigel_Bruce]

The 1971 Robert Arnoux Clos Vougeot is a great wine - it comes from an upper-slope parcel between Anne Gros’ plot and the old Engel parcel (now Eugenie). I have recently drunk 3 different bottles of this wine, and all have been stunning. I shared one with John Kapon - it’s his birth year - and he was very impressed (not easy, given the amount of stellar wine he drinks). With each bottle, the wine just kept adding layers as the bottle went down - a measure for me of a great wine in top condition.

[M_Dildine]

Maybe not, but then again, Vosne, Chambolle and Gevrey aren’t celebrated with drunken renditions of the “Yellow Rose of Texas” either.

[Gerhard_P]

@alan weinberg

@Peter Chiu

When the monks were the sole owner of CdV, they often said the lower part was for the poor, the middle part for the bishops and only the upper part was fit for their Highness : the Pope.

where did you read that–or are you that old? I always thought they blended the entire vineyard.
alan

I´ve read that, too - several times, I don´t know by heart where … (have to go to the University now …)
I don´t think the monks blended all … they didn´t even have the possibility (huge vats etc.) … much easier to keep it in barrels - and drink it from there … (bottle and cork wasn´t invented 400y ago!)

[Peter_Chiu]

@alan weinberg

@Peter Chiu

When the monks were the sole owner of CdV, they often said the lower part was for the poor, the middle part for the bishops and only the upper part was fit for their Highness : the Pope.

where did you read that–or are you that old? I always thought they blended the entire vineyard.
alan

Alan…let say that I am not old but matured.

There was a mistake in my above statement . It should read the upper part was fit for their Holiness ( not Highness ) : the Pope.

where did you read that

I read that many years ago when I first got into Burgundy. I will do some dippings and will report back.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Rex Northen

@Peter Chiu

@Rex Northen

I’ve had a couple vintages of Leroy Clos Vougeot and they have been stunning!

Rex…I did comparative tastings in vintage 1995 with Leroy many g-crus. For example…her Musigny, Riche, RSV ( no Chambertin ) and CdV and the levels of difference in quality is quite evident. .

Peter, I’ve not tasted side by side, but it is interesting to me that you taste such a noticeable qualitative difference. I reviewed Meadows’ notes and since 01 or so, Clos Vougeot has been very close to RB and RSV in his scores. In 2009, he scores CV 2 pts higher than RB; in 2008 he scores the CV above RB and in 2007 he rates RB and RSV one point better than CV…

David S at WA rated the 07 CV above the 07 RB, equivalent to the RSV and only one point below the Musigny and Chambertin… In 2008 he rated the CV above Musigny and RB…

Perhaps Leroy’s CV has improved since 95?

Hi Rex…

I firmly believe in scores if and when read togather wih tasting notes. Scores makes drinking burgundy wines more enjoyable and more interesting, specially when we are engaging ourselves in wine-related conversations during the dinner event. But seriously deep in our heart and mind, there is a difference in a Musginy with 95 points and a CdV with 95 points.

Why would we think ( or believe ) like that. For the simple reason of the following statemetn : the biggest disorder of the human mind is to believe things as they are because we wish them to be so.

If anyone have a chance…try to open the following 2 wines from the same vintage year. A LT rated 95 points is not the same as a CdV which also rated 95 points.Specially so if the wines were served non-blind or after the brown bages were removed. Or a Richebourg by Anne Gros and her CdV from the same vintage year.

The Burgundian knows our weakness. Madam Leroy prices her wines in term of preceived quality ( give an take a few dollars for commercial reasons ). The following is an example. Leroy owns /29 ha in Musigny; 0.49 ha in Chambertin, 0.78 ha in Riche and 0.99 ha in RSV. She releases Musigny and Chambertin the highest price, then 5% lower in Rich and RSV. Then all he other g-cru anywhere from 10% to 30% lower.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Lewis Dawson

@Mark Golodetz

Therefore let’s assume that we are talking about a top producer, who knows what he/she is doing. Are there any areas of CV wines, where the wines will be the equal of a Mugnier Musigny, a Rousseau Chambertin or a DRC Richebourg?

Mark, rankings are odious at this level, IMO, but if I were to rank the grand crus, I could not put upper-slope Clos Vougeot at the same level as Musigny, Chambertin, or Richebourg. I would have it higher than numerous other fine grand crus, however. I regard the middle and lower portions as second division grand cru, but the upper one-third of CV as first division, in my own personal classment of the crus.

Lewis…right on.

[ekovitch]

@alan weinberg

@Peter Chiu

When the monks were the sole owner of CdV, they often said the lower part was for the poor, the middle part for the bishops and only the upper part was fit for their Highness : the Pope.

where did you read that–or are you that old? I always thought they blended the entire vineyard.
alan

I think that it was probably vintage dependent. Upper part better in rainy years, lower part may have fared better in dry years?

[Howard_Cooper]

I have had some outstanding Clos Vougeots - a 1978 Faiveley immediately springs to mind - but overall I would not put CV anywhere near the higher reaches of Burgundy, as least from what I have tasted. Our Burg group has often done tastings of wines from a specific village and the month we did Clos Vougeot was not one of the better tastings we have done. I don’t remember the specific wines, but the producers were excellent ones. However, I don’t think generally the wines showed as well as those from a number of other villages we have done, even though we are often drinking premier crus from these villages and the Clos Vougeot tasting was (obviously) all grand crus. It may just be the age of the wines served, but I bet if I asked our group whether they want the next tasting we do to be Clos Vougeot or Volnay, Volnay would be the overwhelming preference.

[JonoBeagle]

I was just looking through my notes on Anne Gros’ 2010s as I was writing her section on my blog and my scores for Clos de Vougeot versus Richebourg are the same but perhaps with a more complex future for the Richebourg. In terms of quality, they are for me identical, and the difference is in the mineral/terroir characters. In many ways, I do believe that Clos de Vougeot can be the equal of the great names but that it is just different but then certain parts are good enough, others are not!

[Peter_Chiu]

@JonoBeagle

I was just looking through my notes on Anne Gros’ 2010s as I was writing her section on my blog and my scores for Clos de Vougeot versus Richebourg are the same but perhaps with a more complex future for the Richebourg. In terms of quality, they are for me identical, and the difference is in the mineral/terroir characters. In many ways, I do believe that Clos de Vougeot can be the equal of the great names but that it is just different but then certain parts are good enough, others are not!

Wow…luck you. Tasted 2 g-crus from 2010 vintage already.

Here are my views :

I would say pricewise Riche is the very top wine in Anne Gros portfalio and CdV is just a step behind. I am not aware of the respective age of the vines in Riche and CdV; and also not familar with the details ( or difference ) in how the wines were raised but the landing holding of Anne Gros CdV is at the very top ( where the juice is for the Pope).

Wouldn’t that be interesting to check the 2 wines at an intervals of a number of years to form an opinion ? Let say…try them side-by-side both young at release; then re-visit them at age 10, age 15…onward.

My guess is…a toss-up perhaps ( or preference to the general characters of Riche and CdV ); but then my guess is as good as yours; unless we know the details how Anne crafts her Riche vs CdV and the age of the vines.

Just my 2 cents.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Nigel Bruce

The 1971 Robert Arnoux Clos Vougeot is a great wine - it comes from an upper-slope parcel between Anne Gros’ plot and the old Engel parcel (now Eugenie). I have recently drunk 3 different bottles of this wine, and all have been stunning. I shared one with John Kapon - it’s his birth year - and he was very impressed (not easy, given the amount of stellar wine he drinks). With each bottle, the wine just kept adding layers as the bottle went down - a measure for me of a great wine in top condition.

Nigel…thanks for posting about your thoughts on CdV .

What you had said confirm one of commemts here : CdV is a happy hunting ground for Burgundy geeks for QPR G-crus.

R.Arnourx also makes RSV and I believe his RSV would cost more ( or much more ) than his CdV…so why not buy more his CdV as Burgundy lovers need to streach their dollars.

[John_Morris]

The 1993 Drouhin CdV that Claude kindly served me in S.F. a couple of weeks ago certainly was G.C. level, even though Drouhin’s plots aren’t that well situated, according to Jasper Morris’s map.