Are Loire red Franc de Pied cuvées better than "normal" ones?

WINE TALK
1

Rather than adding to the red Loire classification discussion, I thought I’d start another companion thread. One of the many differences in the Loire region is the number of “franc de pied cuvées” (i.e. vines which are not grafted onto American rootstock, therefore running the risk of annihilation by phylloxera). Some, such as Baudry and Joguet, have given up, others such as Germain or Breton persist. I’ve only tried two so far - Roches Neuves 2009, which I liked a lot, and Joguet Les Varennes, which I was less convinced by. Neither struck me as fundamentally different compared to the “normal” wines produced. Also, FDPs are often more expensive than the normal cuvées.

I know many of you have a lot more experience, so I’m curious - how are FDP cuvées different and are they worth paying extra for?

2

Yes.

:wink:

3

It’s an interesting question, and quest, to find and then define these cuvees, which in theory, taste like what wines in the 1800s would have tasted like, right? Sorta like trying to stay in a dream, waking up, and wondering what that was.

I seek them, and I do think there is a difference. I cannot always say better, but I do believe slightly different. Kinda like comparing a Sans Soufre Lapierre Morgon to one with SO. Drinking them side by side, and the difference actually can be palpable.

To back up, there are different FDPs in the marketplace, and not all are in Loire. Many other regions still have FDP vines. Clos du Jaugueyron in Margaux is one perfect example, and this is a wine I always seek out. It’s expensive, but can also be ethereal. Many of the FDPs in Loire are actually young vines planted experimentally on sandy soils. For whatever reason, the louse generally does not attack vines in sand. There are two that I know for a fact have very old vintages that I believe had never succumbed to the louse in the first place. Marc Plouzeau’s Franc de Pied, Ante Phylloxera Clos de Maulevrier, has vines over 150 years old, and then Thierry Germain’s “Memoires” cuvee has vines over 110 years old. Compare that to Germain’s Franc de Pied cuvee, which is young vines under 15 years of age.

IMHO, the true way to appreciate whether these FDP cuvees are what some of us believe them to be is to try these two older vine cuvees, Plouzeau and Les Memoires. Another way is to source some older Joguet Les Varenees du Grand Clos wines, both the FDP version and the non-FDP, from the same vintage and drink them side by side. I have done that with the 2004, 05 and 07 bottling. Sadly, the Joguet FDP vineyard is no more. That 2005 Joguet FDP is extraordinary, one of the 3 best Loire Cab Francs that I have had. I went through a lot of them, and like an idiot, saved none for hte long haul. And they were only $25 back then!

I think these wines generally deliver more vivacity and energy on a more lithe frame than their non-FDP peers. Plouzeau in particular shows that in spades. That wine can be electric in some vintages.

My notes on these Franc de Pied wines are all over this site.

I would be remiss if I did not link a note to this very geeky Franc de Pied:

4

That’s a great question for a quarantine Sunday.

Robert A. hit all of the key points, as far as I know. I just want to emphasize the obvious that when vines are young and planted in very sandy soil, you’re going to be trading off a lot of complexity for whatever the root system brings. To wit, a recent fdp bottle from a well regarded producer was a complete dud, though others’ I’ve tried have been reasonably distinctive.

I have never managed to chase down a bottle of the plouzeau.

5

Excellent post by Alfert.

I’ve had the Joguet Les Varennes du Grand Clos FdP and the Plouzeau Maulevrier, both amazing wines. But I have not tried a blind side by side with grafted cab francs from those producers, which would be fascinating and fun.

6

I could be wrong but I always thought the FdP’s were older vines in most cases. It wasn’t necessarily about the root stock as much as the vines had a lot of age on them.

I’ll never be convinced we will have some window into a supposed greater past. I think it much more likely that wines were made and farmed in many cases differently back then and we wouldn’t even appreciate them as much if we were to have an actual time machine situation.

Maybe somehow the root stocks provide a different mix of water and nutrients that we could detect after harvest, fermentation and aging. Seems like not something I would want to make a bet on.

7

That’s a key point that I did not flesh out well. The young vines really do take time to penetrate the sandy top soils to embedded into richer substrata, and of course, every plot of land is different in terms of how far down they can reach. They really don’t develop complexity until they embed, IMHO. It’s what makes Colares so fascinating. The top ten or so feet is sand, but the soil underneath is ridiculously rich.

8

As I mentioned in my post, it’s either. There is original FDP rootstock over 110+ years, and there is new, ungrafted FDP rootstock. Compare German’s old vines Memoires cuvee to its young vine FDP cuvee.

9

A read about Franc de Pied and its history:

10

Robert, do you know what it is about the Plouzeau and Germain parcels that enabled them to avoid phylloxera over all those decades? Is it just a highly sandy upper layer of soil?

Also, with apologies for my laziness, would you mind providing the link(s) to any past posts where you compared the Joguet fdp and non-fdp cuvees side by side? That really has to be the ultimate test.

11

I’ve had the Memoires and Maulevrier from what might be deemed lesser vintages and they have been awesome. I haven’t tried RN’s FDP yet but have some in storage and will try next time I go in.

12

Elliott that is what I surmise as there is not other explanation. Both are enclosed vineyards as well with a low wall. I doubt that explains it, but those two vineyards share that fact.

Use my username and plug in the 2004 and 2005. It’s there somewhere! I think. Lol.

13

Thanks for all the great contributions, excellent stuff! Love the history provided by my main supplier of wine, which I didn’t even know they had done. Talk about ironic - they’re literally just down the road from me, yet it takes a geek from Florida to unearth the story!

It definitely makes me want to try some more and to compare side by side with other wines from the same year.

I’ve tried two so far: the first was Les Varennes du Grand Clos FDP 2004. I liked the intensity of the redcurrant and cranberry flavours, but it was probably a bad bottle, because it did taste a little tired. It was fun but not earth-moving.

The second, OTOH, was a lot better: Les Roches Neuves FDP 2009.

I finished it last night and it was much better for having spent two days recorked in the cellar. The bouquet was very floral and intense, really jumping out of the glass. The attack was full of red crunchy fruit, very pure and fresh - not at all cloying. On Friday night, that was about it - the middle section did venture towards raspberry and blackberry flavours, the finish was quite decent, but I wasn’t bowled over. Then last night I tried again, and lo and behold, it was a different proposition: the big difference was the middle section, which was far more developed - like an intensely coloured watercolour painting, it was full of dabs of different tastes - violet, plum, creamy blackcurrant, cherry, even a hint of blueberry, coming and going in wafts, before a much longer, more intense finish - which left a strong imprint of raspberry.

One of my best confinement wines and one of the best Loire reds I’ve tried. I can only compare it to the memory I have of a 2008 La Marginale, which was nothing like as good, so I can’t say if it’s down to the vintage or the FDP vines, but I will certainly be stocking up on more.

Drinking it last night was fun but bittersweet - it made me understand, again, how profoundly my taste has changed over the last two or three years. There are hundreds of bottles in my cellar which I am going to have to sell.
Because once you get into these wines, it’s very hard to go back to others. It’s not just Loire reds - as Robert says, there is an obvious link between Roches-Neuves and Clos du Jaugueyron - I wonder who inspired whom, because the cross-pollination is so clear. But also other wines, like Sociando-Mallet, clearly similar, and Bel Air Marquis d’Aligre, the godfather of them all. If you asked Monsieur Boyer about Parker he’d assume you meant a pen! None of these winemakers would even know what extraction was.

I had a Bouscassé and a Montus 2000 last week - which used to be two of my favourite wines: I couldn’t handle more than a glass of each. As for Saint Emilion, don’t get me started.

14

It would seem the combination of own rooted vines and sandy soil might be the best of both worlds with the advantage of better drainage in wetter years and acidity retention in the grapes in warmer ones.