I think that it might contribute to a sense of something unique and therefore might attract a premium. In the end, a large part of wine appreciation is more or less subjective IMHO and things that come with a story tend to be prefered. I’m personally quite partial to the idea of someone’s great grandfather having planted a special parcel that we now see the benefits from.
From a European context, my notion of “old” would be closer to 100 years though, but I understand the setting in South Africa is different.
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Yeah, there is definitely something special about a centennial vine…although even in France, the term “Vielles Vignes” is used on vines much younger than 100yrs.
I love the Aussie scale that has different names for different ages… it adds a little more specificity to the romance that you mentioned about someone’s grandfather etc.
About 2 weeks ago I hosted a tasting for a friends 40th birthday. It started with a white. Nisia ‘Las Suertes’ Old Vines Verdejo.
The wine is from grapes of a pre-phylloxera vineyard planted in 1885. On one hand it was one of the favorites of the day, and a wine almost everyone came back to try again after, but on the other hand it is less than $30 for the bottle. All though it seems that they would pay more, they are currently not in this case even with 137 year old vines.
I think there is a distinct difference with old vine wines, that the average consumer would be able to taste under the right circumstances, and that they would be willing to pay more (on average). But I think the main issue here in NY, and maybe the US in general is that the retailers rarely educate the consumer. The lack of competition has permitted stores that do a mediocre job at best, and when the consumer is trying a wine and then trying something similar with different aged vines a week or so later the difference can easily be lost in an array of other differences in the terroir/ winemaking. If every bottle showed the age of the vines, I am certain that the average customer would pay more, as the difference is not only noticeable, but the consumer would likely associate the difference with the vines (often when that is not even the case).
The challenge now is educating the customers and marketing only when the difference is distinct on the wine, so as not to lessen the validity.
I personally know nothing about emerging properties at 35 years for the vines though. I would be very curious to see the science behind that, and even more curious to do a tasting of wines from 40 year vines vs 28 year vines vs 16 year vines to see if there is a greater distinction between 28-40.
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Great note Joseph. Thanks.
I have personally set up such tastings, and the results were distinctly disappointing (IE the much older vines were not clearly differentiate in a blind tasting by a group of very seasoned wine professionals).
But on other days, I find myself able to pick them out of a line-up quite easily. 
The distinction in vine metabolism, if I remember correctly, has to do with the decline of sap flow, the reduction of fruit yield, and also an apparently quite noticeable shift in the acid-sugar ratio during veraison. IE phenolic ripeness seems to being to be reached more quickly at lower sugar levels.
BUT I have not looked at the data myself, but am instead reporting on what I heard from OVP members discussing how they reached the number of “35 years of age”. It was reached in close discussion with research bodies from a whole range of different groups around the world.
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Here in the US there is a non-profit group dedicated to preserving the heritage old vine plantings in California. The Old Vine designation on a bottle by itself carries little weight as the terms usage is not regulated. There are a number of producers who source primarily from these old heritage vines and they command prices 2-3x what others can get for wines of similar varieties. The wines are head a shoulder above the competition in terms of quality and longevity.
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See this post and the ones below it on that thread for an explanation as to why old vines may also matter.
Also, welcome!
In short, older vines, even if they weren’t great clones to begin with, can start behaving like better clones. Closing the gap.
So, distinguishing by taste may not be possible in some cases, especially if vs a new great clone, but the wine is almost definitely a better wine than the vineyard used to produce with the same vines.
Welcome to the board!
I myself can attribute extra value to “old vines”.
Thing is: you can access a lot of great wine made from old, ungrafted wines and they’re usually not leagues above in price compared to other wines from the same area, different criteria play bigger roles.
So for example I can buy Egon Muller Scharzof QbA Riesling for around 70 € here, and several other mosel “Alte Reben” from other producers around 30 €.
With that awareness, if a lesser know producer from South Africa comes out with a wine that costs 200+, like other top bottles from other producers of the region (I don’t know much about South Africa) and they try to justify it mainly with the vines being 80 + years old … I wouldn’t be very excited.
Joseph and Jono make very good points. If the (average) consumer cannot tell/taste a difference, why pay a premium price. Clearly, the “science” says there is a difference (some times more pronounced in taste than others), but if it is not sensed, why pay more?
In my experience ‘old vines’ or ‘vv’ designates have been better wines far less than I’ve hoped they would. At least they are not always wines of distinction in comparison to similar bottles in terms of grape and terroir.
There are many unique vineyards that deserve to be preserved that happen to be of old vines. Where replanting say a mixed variety vineyard to whatever a modern vineyard manager might do in terms of grapes, spacing and trellising would significantly change the character of the wines currently made from it.
There is also a problem of being unable to truly compare wines of old vines with wines of younger vines because those are not made in the same vineyard. There is also likely a certain amount of ‘romance’ for lack of a better word that we attach to a historic vineyard that may color the way we perceive the wine. Would it have that note of pepper if it were replanted? Or does the maturity of the vines give it that?
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There are some examples. When Mount Eden gradually replanted their Cabernet over a decade or so they made an “Old Vine Reserve” alongside the “Estate”. Not sure what the price differential was on release, but with maturity the market is rewarding the qualitative superiority of the OVR.
I see Burg and Bojo producers with VV and regular bottling from the same vineyard, but don’t know if the parcels are comparable. I suspect some are, some aren’t.
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That Mount Eden OVR is a great example, Wes. I first tasted one of those last year, in a vertical of Mount Eden cabs, mostly regular bottings. The '91 OVR was a real standout.
Whether the “old vines” designation is even used seems very much a regional thing. It is touted for zins in Sonoma, and in Burgundy and (to a lesser extent) the Rhone. But you don’t come across it in Barolo or Montalcino or, to my knowledge, Rioja. (A Barolo producer told me in 2005 that there were few vines over 40 years of age or so because most vineyards hadn’t been well maintained until recent decades.)
Another factor with age could be the rootstock, particularly in California. Wes – you can correct me – but as I recall, St George roots were widely used through much of the 20th century, post-phylloxera. But growers switched to newer rootstocks starting in the 70s or so. And then again when some of those proved vulnerable to phylloxera. So 100-year-old vines are likely on St. George, while few recent plantings are.
Something similar is the case in Germany, I understand. There was a lot of replanting in the 60s and 70s and the law required grafted vines, even though phylloxera isn’t a problem on slate, which much of the Mosel is. So, again, old vines may be ungrafed.
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If you’re making a 5 $ wine and your goal is to make an old vines version of it and sell at 8 $ (nobody is probably trying to do it this low on the price scale) it’s probably a lost cause.
If you’re making a base 20 $ wine and your goal is to make an old vines / single plot / more time in oak version of it and sell it at 35 $ you might have a greater chances, even if the taste difference might still be subtle the consumer in the market for that price range often already recognize that there’s more to a wine bottle than the mere sensation on your palate.
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I seek out wines from old vines. I urge growers to maintain them for as long as possible. I am willing to pay more for wines from old vines.
Having said that, AFAIK there is complete lack of legal definition for the term in any country! If I am wrong, please enlighten me.
In my own vineyard, I have several small plots that were planted before 1950, exact dates unknown. My vineyard manager thinks that one of them (Grenache Noir) was probably planted in the 1930s and maybe as much as 100 years ago. There are missing vines and yields are maybe one ton per acre. It makes no commercial sense to keep this parcel; it is too small to vinify the grapes separately, but I will keep it. It is picked with several other old parcels and an excellent parcel planted in 1986. This combined batch always produces one of my best lots.
Dan Kravitz
Dan Kravitz
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I often find a depth and complexity from old vine fruit however as they say, wines made from old vines might not be better but their fruit must be good, otherwise they wouldn’t be old vines…
This thread got me thinking and I found some examples of the oldest vineyards in Australia (need to confirm dates):
Shiraz: Langmeil Freedom vineyard – 1843
Cabernet Sauvignon: Penfolds Kalimna Block 42 – 1888
Mourvedre/Mataro: Hewitson Old Garden Vineyard – 1853
Grenache: Cirillo Estate – 1848 – they also make a Rose from this fruit!
Riesling: Jacob’s Creek Block 2 Riesling - 1922(?)
Marsanne – Tahbilk - 1927
Chardonnay: Tyrrell’s HVD Vineyard – 1908
Many of the flagships of Australian wineries are now made exclusively from their oldest plots - this wasn’t always the case, and there has been talk on some of the Australian wine forums as to whether the separation out of this old vine fruit hadn’t lessened the quality of the standard label, and certainly it’s sometimes hard to justify the premium of the flagship price over the standard wine.
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I had a similar experience years ago with a Godello from a small Spanish winery called Tres Lunas. The wine had remarkable depth and that extra gear of really, really good white wines, but retailed under $30. From vines over 105 years old at the time.
While I think vine age is a direct contributor to some of the most special, and impossible to reproduce, aspects in wines it’s routinely overlooked by a big portion of consumers.
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It’s not a legal definition, just like Biodynamic has no legal definition…but Demeter will still come after you if you try to use it without paying them. In the same way, there are bodies that have laid out stipulations for the use of that term in South Africa. The OVP has never pursued legal action against anyone (and I’m not sure that they could), but there seems to be a lot of internal peer pressure to “tow the line” with regards to the use of that term.
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In South Africa, the OVP actively urge winemakers to only use concrete or OLD oak, and to steer away from new oak, so that that “old vine quality” can shine through. They do not make these winemaking stipulations a requirement, but instead try to use soft power to coerce winemakers into a less invasive style of winemaking. Not everyone listens, but seemingly, the Old Vine Wines that rake in the biggest accolades are all made in that “minimal intervention” style.
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Thanks Daniele!
Just to clarify, Demeter does not own the term biodynamic and if they ever go after anyone for using it, they might be in for a very rude awakening.
They only own the phrase “Demeter Certified Biodynamic.”
You should tell that to guys like Reynecke Wines in Stellenbosch, who have been having exactly these sorts of conflict situations with Demeter. Whether they have legal precedent or not, Demeter certainly has a bigger legal team than most South African producers, and that is enough to achieve the desired control.