There was another thread where we spoke about Muscadine. I’ve had one from Napa valley. Terrible wine. The Muscadine has a very distinct grapey flavor mixed with burned rubber doll. I’m sure you could do something with it with the right experimentation. But one of the problems with Muscadine is that most of the breeds don’t ripen to the level needed for winemaking. But I’ve heard there are some newer crosses that do get to ripeness levels that are useable.
I love the taste of the grape itself, it just seems tricky how to translate into a good wine.
Muscadine is prominent in wineries across the southeast. I’ve tried dozens, sometimes labeled with something generic, Ruby Red or something, all bad usually foxy, often undrinkable. The only one I at one time thought was drinkable was a Scuppernong White sweet muscadine from a winery in middle Tennessee. I probably drank it first while in college when Boone’s Farm and Bartles & Jaymes were my other “wine” choices.
I think it’s a native non-hybrid, but probably has been crossed/hybridized because even phylloxera don’t like it. Some southerners must drink it, because they make lots of it, but I am 100% Tennessean by birth and can’t drink it.
Indeed, it’s not a hybrid but a wholly another species of grapevine altogether, Vitis rotundifolia. Phylloxera loves it, but the vine is actually resistant to it. This means that when the aphid attacks the root systems, they can actually tolerate the bug and protect against it. Vitis vinifera lacks this natural protection, which is why it withers away once phylloxera attacks the root system and destroys it.
Regions that have the opportunity to grow either vinifera and/or hybrids tend to overwhelmingly grow vinifera.
Hybrids tend to be grown in places that have difficulty growing vinifera.
There are some recent hybrids that show promise, like Noiset for red wines, and Traminette (white) has been successful in New York.
I rate Norton & Baco Noir for red wines, and Seyval Blanc for whites - especially sparkling.
The only thing going for Rondo & Regent (IMO) is the ability to produce red juice in a climate where black grapes rarely ripen. But I don’t think they make palatable red wine.
Pinot Precoce is not a hybrid but an early ripening clone of Pinot Noir that shows promise, especially for sparkling wines.
As Otto has posted, a number of the varieties named here are not hybrids. All grape varieties are the result of a crossing between two other varieties. In viticulture a hybrid is a cross between varieties from different species.
It seems like there’s a lot of hit or miss and anecdotal information on Hybrids in this particular thread. My .02 cents as someone who specifically grows, makes wine from, and consults on many of these (specifically now UofM varietals) is the following:
-Great wine can and is being made from them, they just don’t fit the parameters that classically define fine wine.
-For those of you who enjoy experimentation, many of the producers working with them spend a lot of time trying new things; they’re rarely conformed to a typicity or style that classically defines common Vinifera wines.
-There are plenty of terrible hybrid wines out there, just as there is plenty of terrible Chardonnay. But that’s no reason to stop drinking Chardonnay altogether.
-Anything that’s grown in a climate suitable for it is going to have a leg up on something that is being grown in a fringe climate. I would rather take a hybrid that’s grown in a climate in which it’s adapted to than a Cab Franc grown in a fringe area that may ripen 2/5 years.
-Look for the champions of the varietals, not just your neighborhood wineries. There are producers now all over the world growing these and holding them high.
-My philosophy has always been that I can go work in any great winegrowing region in the world, but at the end of the day I choose to be where I am now because I have grown to love and cherish the grapes and wine I work with.
Anyways that might have been more than two cents… Oh well.
Thanks for weighing in Matt K, Which UofM is that? Minnesota?
I have a business contact with vineyard near the Twin Cities and he told me the varieties once, Marquette was the only one I recognized.
In fact, now that I think about it, that’s because one of the top vineyards in Washington, Champoux, planted some due to some connection. Not sure where those grapes go, but it would be worth finding out.
Aha, I found the article about Marquette at Champoux. I should be able to find these wines, maybe even at my local wine shop since it is connected Yakima and a HS here.
Marquette is quickly becoming the champion of the University of Minnesota graduates.
It’s extremely versatile from a winemaking perspective, and grows extraordinarily well in a wide variety of cool climates.
The biggest drawback is its inherently low tannins, but if you’re someone who enjoys medium/light body reds, you will be a very happy person when you find a well made one.
Here’s a short article from a few years ago I’m quoted in that discusses exactly what we’re chatting about in this thread:
Another vote for Chambourcin. Had a few from Virginia, and a couple with 8 years on them, quite nice. I’ve also had a few Vignoles (I think thats a non-vitas vinifera hybrid, I’m not 100% sure) from the finger lakes that were solid.
Madeira has a long history with hybrids. Started growing them after oidium, but it really accelerated after phylloxera. Even after using resistant rootstock. The growers just liked them because of their ease. Early in the 20th century some even made their way into exported Madeira. Only after Portugal joined the EU was there a dedicated effort to root them out. Tinta Negra replaced most of them. Only a few pockets left, mainly on Porto Santo, where they’re non-commercial. Some of the growers just got used to the taste and enjoy them.
OK, there are a few who are using the term hybrid incorrectly as far as wine genetics go.
A crossing is between the same species like Marselan, Pinotage, Muller Thurgau, etc. vinifera-vinifera cross.
Hybrids are crossing between two different species, Chambourcin, Vidal etc. vinifera-labrusca cross or other native American species.
Norton is not a hybrid (in a wine genetic sense) but a Native American grape variety like Catawba, Concord etc.
I worked at a PA winery for over 20 years and at one point we made two single vineyard Chambourcins that were very high quality.
One was celebrated enough that the owner of the vineyard we purchased the fruit from opened their own winery based on the notoriety of our wine.
It has recently been discovered that Norton actually IS an interspecific hybrid. Although it was long thought to be a selection of Vitis aestivalis, DNA analysis has shown that Norton has some Vitis vinifera in its parentage.
My Canadian wine club has featured a few hybrid SKUs that I really enjoyed. The standout so far has been Epicure.
Both Beaufort (Vancouver Island) and Whispering Horse (Chilliwack) make a great Epicure. For a ballpark (but still not great) comparison, think a higher acid well-made Soave.