Approach to Aging Wines

[Arv_R]

न वयसि विओग्नियर् is what we say in the old country. Translated, it is basically, ‘do NOT age your Condrieu’

[Howard_Cooper]

@Marcus_Goodfellow

The Mt. Eden recommendation is spot on. We just had a magnum of the 1985 that someone brought to a Christmas dinner that was spectacular. Really wonderful wine. 13.0% abv on the label and that felt accurate to me.

I am more of a fairly newcomer to Mount Eden Cabernet but am really impressed by what I have had. Led to try these wines by John Gilman and Dan Kravitz. 1985 sounds wonderful.

[Otto_Forsberg]

And how much have you tasted aged Condrieu then?

[Al_Kelman]

This has been one of the most erudite discussions on the subject I have seen. I can’t really take issue with the good counsel provided. So, let me for a moment leap frog over to a practical approach that has served me well for a long time. Think of it as an addition to all the thoughtful stuff on this thread.

THE LIGHT BULB TEST - Stand the bottle up for about one hour. Find a space underneath a bare light bulb, or as close to bare as possible. Pick the bottle up and turn the label away from your face. For the moment it is not relevant. Lift the bottle up toward the bulb and tilt it to a 45 degree angle. Nudge the bottle until you can see the light hitting on the very edge of the wine. Look at the color - both by itself, and moving down the bottle to the rest of the wine. The first look at the rim will give you a sense of readiness, e.g., most reds showing a little terra cotta are probably ready to drink, irrespective of age. Next follow the wine down-bottle. Same color? This is when your personal preferences about aged wine come it. But, here is some bottle-specific info to work with.

The process is a little trickier for whites. You have aged wines on your hands if the color is not the same for the whole bottle. Also, for me a little variation from neck to body usually tells me the wine is in a good ‘drinking window.’ Darker yellows are usually a clear sign - dry wines may be shot, LHs may have really hit stride and be ready.

The correlation between what you may uncover doing this and then comparing that info with the bottle label will be helpful and occasionally crazy. Enjoy!

[DougS]

@Arv_R

न वयसि विओग्नियर् is what we say in the old country. Translated, it is basically, ‘do NOT age your Condrieu’

I think this is similar to saying not to age Muscadet. It might be true for many/most in the appellation, but there are some very notable exceptions.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

I have liked Mt. Eden for many years but have been more focused on Oregon, this was definitely a treat, and at 39 years old it was absolutely vibrant and alive.

[MChang]

@m_blasco

So I’m curious what the approach is if you open a wine that might be in range, everything seems fine technically, but the fruit is muted?

I opened a 2005 Jadot Clos des Ursules recently and it was great, but I definitely felt the fruit elements were so far in the background I thought “maybe this doesn’t have the legs to age much further if the fruit is already so faded”. Maybe this is a reflection of my palate.

But I am confused as to the judgment call here: do I say “this was a huge vintage and probably needs another decade in the bottle” or “the fruit is fading, better drink up before it’s all gone”?

05s take a long time and jadot takes a long time; I’m burying my 05 jadots for at least 5-10 still.

[JBierly]

@Marcus_Goodfellow

Whole cluster-stems generally lead to higher tannin, less fruit, lower alcohol. The wines rarely show in youth, so tasting them and comparing them to destemmed wines the whole cluster wines usually look less like great wines. But my experience is that with 15-25 years they often have an extra gear, though personal preference is always a factor and plenty of great destemmed wines can be profound. But it’s unlikely that whole cluster wines will be oxidized in 10-15 years.

This is a very interesting observation - My assumption is either doing Whole cluster or partial whole cluster fermentation is often the winemakers choice. But it does make sense that these wines may stand up to aging better.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

There are many well made, and very ageable wines made with destemmed fruit. But in general, whole cluster wines give more tannin, but often a more refined tannin.

The stems also contain water which leaches into the ferment giving slightly less alcohol. Ferments are generally cooler and longer, allowing some delicate yeast esters to be retained. Whereas destemmed tends to have better early fruit concentration, fewer tannins, and more richness. As the wines age though I feel that the whole cluster wines tend to have a wider array of tertiary flavors.

Just my $.02

[JBierly]

Thanks for the reply - I guess my only other question is do you (or other winemakers) vary the amount of whole stem depending on vintage conditions? So is it better in a wet vs dry vintage or hot vs cool. I know those are broad strokes. Just trying to learn!