Any love for second labels here?

[Mike_V_e_r_h_i_l_l_e]

Ralph, It’s clear you are not an attorney. Maybe your line of work tends more to the pedantic. Professor??

I really enjoy the 1.5 from Shafer, very different in style from the glorious Hillside select. Another along that line would be the regular Pride Cabernet which is often as good as the “reserve”.

[Matthew.Rashbrook]

@Ralph George

@Chris Seiber

Yes, I do not know what you meant, outside of Bordeaux, thus my polite questions.

Rather than say what I think of the rest of your comments, I’m just going to end my participation in this thread. I hope you get the discussion you had hoped for.

Well, I apologize then because I thought my idea was relatively easy to grasp, but of course I would because I know what I was thinking.

Here’s part of what Wine Advocate / Robert Parker had to say about the 2012 Dominus line:

“The second wine, the 2012 Napanook Proprietary Red Wine has a similar profile, but certainly comes across as less nuanced and slightly less concentrated and profound compared to its bigger sister.”

Parker calls Napanook the estate’s second label.

Now, if you felt like interpreting my original post differently, you could use the Schrader Beckstoffer To Kalon wines: CCS and RBS. They’re both highly regarded Cabs. CCS is more expensive than RBS on the secondary market, so you could say RBS was the second label if you so desired and then follow your point up with a few sentences.

Another example: EMH makes two Black Cat cabs. She has a Special Selection and a regular bottling. The Special Selection is a bit pricier than the regular.

Bottom line: there are plenty of ways one could join the thread using their own version of what “second” means.

Hey Ralph, my two cents as the new guy, having read this thread and then looked back through your last 20-30 posts:

You seem to hate lawyers, and go looking for fights with/about them. Chris’ question in the first place was totally reasonable, and designed to aid the discussion. Your responses throughout have been antagonistic. He responded magnanimously, and you’ve just insisted on having a fight.

But, what the hell, I’m just another lawyer.

Anyway, I buy/drink Pride’s Cab lately, and Spottswoode’s Lyndenhurst on occasion. I think they’re each a standalone fair deal, and I like the idea that I am getting a preview of the Reserve/Estate wine while it ages some, with the added benefit of helping me have some patience not to open them for awhile.

Maybe a reasonable way to distinguish between second wines and other labels is to say wines that come from the same vineyard vs. others? Or from the same blocks/vines vs. others?

Also, I tend to think the 2nd/3rd BDX’s are a bad deal.

[Merrill_Lindquist]

Well I can assure you my Black Cat is not a second label in any sense. It is my primary label, the one I opened my business with, the 2000 Black Cat. For my 10th Anniversary I made a different label, and called it 10th Anniversary 2009 Special Selection. It was a different cut at the regular Black Cats from barrel, with the intent being a higher level, more elevated wine drinking experience. It is comprised of only some parts of some of the barrels, creating a different wine. Smaller production, created by a more intensive blending exercise, and special handling during bottling. Just different. Yes, more expensive.

Each year after what was supposed to be that one shot deal in 2009, I have made a Special Selection. It is a particular pull from some specific barrels. It is time consuming to conduct the trials that result in the Special, and due to the small production, it is more expensive to bottle. But neither is a second wine; they are just conceived as different bottlings of the same vintage.

[Brad_Keller]

I like Caravina, which is the second label for Seavey. Also liked the Phaedrus, which was the second label for Wolf Family. Both have been good value wines.

[Jim_Hartten]

Second labels are obviously a more common practice in Bordeaux than in California. I have not tried many of the Bordeaux seconds like Pavion Rough (sp), Bahans Haut Brion, which can still be on the pricy side. I generally prefer buying lower end Bordeaux where the best grapes are used to make the wine, rather than a second label made from younger vines/declassified fruit from a higher end Chateau.

[Ralph_George]

@Merrill Lindquist

Well I can assure you my Black Cat is not a second label in any sense. It is my primary label, the one I opened my business with, the 2000 Black Cat. For my 10th Anniversary I made a different label, and called it 10th Anniversary 2009 Special Selection. It was a different cut at the regular Black Cats from barrel, with the intent being a higher level, more elevated wine drinking experience. It is comprised of only some parts of some of the barrels, creating a different wine. Smaller production, created by a more intensive blending exercise, and special handling during bottling. Just different. Yes, more expensive.

Each year after what was supposed to be that one shot deal in 2009, I have made a Special Selection. It is a particular pull from some specific barrels. It is time consuming to conduct the trials that result in the Special, and due to the small production, it is more expensive to bottle. But neither is a second wine; they are just conceived as different bottlings of the same vintage.

Merrill, I’m going to pick a bone here to illustrate my point further: if Black Cat is your #1 wine, how can there be something above it? That’s like saying you won a race, although somebody finished ahead of you, they got more prize money, and you got the silver medal. Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you use gold, silver, and even bronze colors on your wines? The Special Selection gets gold, the regular Black Cat is silver, and the Little Black is bronze-copper colored? That difference in color implies a difference in quality, where Special Selection is tops, regular Black Cat is second, and Little Black was third in the tiers you offer.

[Jason_T]

Ralph, I’m not a lawyer. But my immediate reaction to the OP was “ok, one of those things, is like a second label (Napanook). The other (Shafer One Point Five) is not.”

I saw nothing about Chris’s post that was argumentative in any way. I took it as a helpful clarification that helped frame the conversation. And if Chris didn’t say it, surely someone else would have.

You indicated it was a case of others failing to understand your point. However when you provided another example of a “second label”, the winemaker clarified directly in this thread that she doesn’t consider it so (and I doubt anyone disagrees with that assessment).

It’s probably worth considering that the interpretation of “second label” you used is simply different than that more commonly recognized by many if not most others.

Additionally if you feel that every thread should stick to the narrowly defined subject, with no room for clarification, then it’s also probably considering what it is you want to get out of participating in this forum. Because that’s not a discussion in any meaningful sense.

[Jason_T]

@Ralph George

@Merrill Lindquist

Well I can assure you my Black Cat is not a second label in any sense. It is my primary label, the one I opened my business with, the 2000 Black Cat. For my 10th Anniversary I made a different label, and called it 10th Anniversary 2009 Special Selection. It was a different cut at the regular Black Cats from barrel, with the intent being a higher level, more elevated wine drinking experience. It is comprised of only some parts of some of the barrels, creating a different wine. Smaller production, created by a more intensive blending exercise, and special handling during bottling. Just different. Yes, more expensive.

Each year after what was supposed to be that one shot deal in 2009, I have made a Special Selection. It is a particular pull from some specific barrels. It is time consuming to conduct the trials that result in the Special, and due to the small production, it is more expensive to bottle. But neither is a second wine; they are just conceived as different bottlings of the same vintage.

Merrill, I’m going to pick a bone here to illustrate my point further: if Black Cat is your #1 wine, how can there be something above it? That’s like saying you won a race, although somebody finished ahead of you, they got more prize money, and you got the silver medal. Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you use gold, silver, and even bronze colors on your wines? The Special Selection gets gold, the regular Black Cat is silver, and the Little Black is bronze-copper colored? That difference in color implies a difference in quality, where Special Selection is tops, regular Black Cat is second, and Little Black was third in the tiers you offer.

None of which has anything to do with the concept that you introduced, which was “second label”.

[Matthew.Rashbrook]

@Ralph George

@Merrill Lindquist

Well I can assure you my Black Cat is not a second label in any sense. It is my primary label, the one I opened my business with, the 2000 Black Cat. For my 10th Anniversary I made a different label, and called it 10th Anniversary 2009 Special Selection. It was a different cut at the regular Black Cats from barrel, with the intent being a higher level, more elevated wine drinking experience. It is comprised of only some parts of some of the barrels, creating a different wine. Smaller production, created by a more intensive blending exercise, and special handling during bottling. Just different. Yes, more expensive.

Each year after what was supposed to be that one shot deal in 2009, I have made a Special Selection. It is a particular pull from some specific barrels. It is time consuming to conduct the trials that result in the Special, and due to the small production, it is more expensive to bottle. But neither is a second wine; they are just conceived as different bottlings of the same vintage.

Merrill, I’m going to pick a bone here to illustrate my point further: if Black Cat is your #1 wine, how can there be something above it? That’s like saying you won a race, although somebody finished ahead of you, they got more prize money, and you got the silver medal. Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you use gold, silver, and even bronze colors on your wines? The Special Selection gets gold, the regular Black Cat is silver, and the Little Black is bronze-copper colored? That difference in color implies a difference in quality, where Special Selection is tops, regular Black Cat is second, and Little Black was third in the tiers you offer.

Putting aside for the moment the fact that it was you who said “Black Cat is #1 wine” and not Merrill, here’s one way: #1 could just refer to the wine she made first!

Also, while you suggest Merrill implies something by her use of different colors for labels, aren’t you doing as much (or more!) assuming as she’s doing implying? Are the earlier questions seeking to define “second label” starting to seem reasonable yet?

[JulianD]

@Ralph George

Merrill, I’m going to pick a bone here to illustrate my point further: if Black Cat is your #1 wine, how can there be something above it? That’s like saying you won a race, although somebody finished ahead of you, they got more prize money, and you got the silver medal. Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you use gold, silver, and even bronze colors on your wines? The Special Selection gets gold, the regular Black Cat is silver, and the Little Black is bronze-copper colored? That difference in color implies a difference in quality, where Special Selection is tops, regular Black Cat is second, and Little Black was third in the tiers you offer.

I think you read her post incorrectly. The ‘special selection’ isn’t intended to be ‘above’ the black cat-they are simply different styles of wine she produced. One may be more expensive, but it does not imply superiority (maybe just more expensive ingredients/processes).

[Ralph_George]

@Matthew.Rashbrook

Putting aside for the moment the fact that it was you who said “Black Cat is #1 wine” and not Merrill, here’s one way: #1 could just refer to the wine she made first!

Also, while you suggest Merrill implies something by her use of different colors for labels, aren’t you doing as much (or more!) assuming as she’s doing implying? Are the earlier questions seeking to define “second label” starting to seem reasonable yet?

Merrill absolutely said it was her #1 wine:

@Merrill Lindquist

Well I can assure you my Black Cat is not a second label in any sense.It is my primary label

I guess now you plan on arguing that the word “primary” isn’t exactly the same as “number one”.

It’s a safe assumption that the owner of a small business approves all aspects of their product as they are responsible for it.

… and no, the question seems just as pedantic as before, particularly after explaining that the term is open to wide interpretation.

[Ralph_George]

@JulianD

@Ralph George

Merrill, I’m going to pick a bone here to illustrate my point further: if Black Cat is your #1 wine, how can there be something above it? That’s like saying you won a race, although somebody finished ahead of you, they got more prize money, and you got the silver medal. Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you use gold, silver, and even bronze colors on your wines? The Special Selection gets gold, the regular Black Cat is silver, and the Little Black is bronze-copper colored? That difference in color implies a difference in quality, where Special Selection is tops, regular Black Cat is second, and Little Black was third in the tiers you offer.

I think you read her post incorrectly. The ‘special selection’ isn’t intended to be ‘above’ the black cat-they are simply different styles of wine she produced. One may be more expensive, but it does not imply superiority (maybe just more expensive ingredients/processes).

The words “Special Selection” absolutely imply that it’s a superior product.

[Merrill_Lindquist]

I have several labels over the 18 years I have been doing this.

EMH Black Cat, now known informally as “regular.” Silver printing, silver capsule. Produced every year from 2000 through 2015. 2000 and 2001 were not intended as commercial offerings, and sport generic labels.

EMH Black Cat Special Selection, gold print and gold cap. A pull of some parts of some barrels. Produced 2009-2015.

Sparkles. 2014 single barrel. Gold print and cap. A different design for the cat.

Lady Sapphire. 2015 single barrel. Silver print and silver cap. A third color - Sapphire blue - was added. Necklace changed to a Sapphire pendant.

Little Black. A non-vintage EMH Black Cat. Bronze print and cap. Released in 2013. Revised cat, wearing a necktie instead of a necklace.

[J_O_S_H_L_O_N_G]

I really like Faust Napa cab (second label for Quintessa). Decently priced daily drinker around $40.

[JulianD]

@Ralph George

@JulianD

@Ralph George

Merrill, I’m going to pick a bone here to illustrate my point further: if Black Cat is your #1 wine, how can there be something above it? That’s like saying you won a race, although somebody finished ahead of you, they got more prize money, and you got the silver medal. Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you use gold, silver, and even bronze colors on your wines? The Special Selection gets gold, the regular Black Cat is silver, and the Little Black is bronze-copper colored? That difference in color implies a difference in quality, where Special Selection is tops, regular Black Cat is second, and Little Black was third in the tiers you offer.

I think you read her post incorrectly. The ‘special selection’ isn’t intended to be ‘above’ the black cat-they are simply different styles of wine she produced. One may be more expensive, but it does not imply superiority (maybe just more expensive ingredients/processes).

The words “Special Selection” absolutely imply that it’s a superior product.

Well, looks like you’ve settled it. The maker of the wine disagrees but who is she to tell you…

[J_O_S_H_L_O_N_G]

@Mike V e r h i l l e

Ralph, It’s clear you are not an attorney. Maybe your line of work tends more to the pedantic. Professor??

I really enjoy the 1.5 from Shafer, very different in style from the glorious Hillside select. Another along that line would be the regular Pride Cabernet which is often as good as the “reserve”.

Agree re Pride and Pride Reserve. The merlot is great too at its price point and fairly similar to the cab.

[B_Jenny]

Wow. It was a simple question about second labels. Some people on here must have too much time to try to argue every word on every post that is mentioned. Kinda makes asking questions about wine too difficult unless you proof read and have it approved by attorneys or language experts.

[David_Cooper]

I think trickle down techniques work better for wine then economics. Nobody has done it as well as Aldo Vacca and the PdB. The second label moniker seems to be troublesome to some.

Is a wine considered a second label if the grapes come from a different source? Is it what is left over after the first label is bottled? Is it both?

[Jay_Miller]

@Merrill Lindquist

I have several labels over the 18 years I have been doing this.

EMH Black Cat, now known informally as “regular.” Silver printing, silver capsule. Produced every year from 2000 through 2015. 2000 and 2001 were not intended as commercial offerings, and sport generic labels.

EMH Black Cat Special Selection, gold print and gold cap. A pull of some parts of some barrels. Produced 2009-2015.

Sparkles. 2014 single barrel. Gold print and cap. A different design for the cat.

Lady Sapphire. 2015 single barrel. Silver print and silver cap. A third color - Sapphire blue - was added. Necklace changed to a Sapphire pendant.

Little Black. A non-vintage EMH Black Cat. Bronze print and cap. Released in 2013. Revised cat, wearing a necktie instead of a necklace.

Merril - please identify which is your first wine, your second wine, your third wine, your fourth wine and your fifth wine. That is the only possible way to look at them. I have that on good authority.

[Arv_R]

@Ralph George

Guess that answers my question - two replies, and one of them was to argue.