Another needle in the bubble: The cost of Wine Country living

[David_Bu3ker]

Then, wine-country tourism operators should charge higher much prices for that experience, in order to pay workers enough to live there.

Oh Victor, you know the tourism operators will just keep the money for themselves. It will not translate into wages.

[Victor_Hong]

If so, then their problems are of their own volition.

[Douglas_Breen]

It’s a problem that just gets worse. I live in Santa Cruz County. I know of a restaurant that went to ‘take out only’ because they could not find enough labor. Other businesses folding due to the problem. Construction labor rates have seemed to adjust due to demand. Very difficult getting a contractor to do any construction- not even talking good contractor. The amount of homes being rebuilt in Northern California from all the fires must be having an unbelievable impact on construction labor.

My county has pushed ADU homes (granny units) on existing property for some time. They even give out generic plans for them. With permits, fees, water meter hook up and the high construction rates, the average 500 square foot units cost $250,000 (per friend who gave up). New construction standards have not helped much either with cost. Time, effort and a lot of money for little return ($1500 a month rent). Very few have been built.

I haven’t even mentioned the terrible traffic and lack of water. The housing crises continues to be extreme. Of course they need to increase incomes so 1/3rd of a persons income can get a decent place to live. It will take a lot of time for incomes to adjust and many other factors can get in the way.

[David_Bu3ker]

And when incomes go up, rental costs will be increased to keep pace.

We’re in a vicious circle.

[Chris_Freemott]

We have density zoning…it’s called “City” and the Ag Preserve is in “County.” We do not receive city services in the Ag Preserve, or in “County.” County or Ag Preserve has limited natural resources and we protect them with all we have. Calistoga City Police and Fire are not in charge of my safety in those areas…it comes from County…or the County Seat in Napa - 45 minutes away. There is a lot that outsiders do not comprehend about our agricultural lifestyle. BTW, “City” is less than a mile from me.

I fully understand that. And I thought I was clear in my post that this isn’t really about adjusting the Ag aspects of the area for housing, it is about allowing for better densities (height) than the zoning currently allows.

I am in agreement with Victor on the concept that higher densities can lead to lower congestion (cars) if the densities are where the need for the jobs are. If you force a 5 story condo (or apartment) complex to go up outside of town but within a reasonable commute you will force those people to all use cars to get back to town to work. That’s a compounding issue you’d think urban planners would work hard to avoid but empirical evidence appears to show otherwise.

[Yao_C]

Then, wine-country tourism operators should charge higher much prices for that experience, in order to pay workers enough to live there.

I do think this is the inevitable result - everything (wine, restaurants, tourist experiences, etc) will escalate relentlessly in price. Napa is already hideously bad value, so bad that I wonder what another 10 years will do

[Victor_Hong]

Noo Yawk is doing that, explaining much higher restaurant prices across the spectrum, even at greasy dirty shops without that Napa essence.

[Victor_Hong]

If you force a 5 story condo (or apartment) complex to go up outside of town but within a reasonable commute you will force those people to all use cars to get back to town to work. That’s a compounding issue you’d think urban planners would work hard to avoid but empirical evidence appears to show otherwise.

That is the exact fight in many CA towns, as NIMBY-istas try to prove that taller buildings solve no problems. Undermined density execution is simply a nodal version of urban sprawl.

[David_Bu3ker]

We have density zoning…it’s called “City” and the Ag Preserve is in “County.” We do not receive city services in the Ag Preserve, or in “County.” County or Ag Preserve has limited natural resources and we protect them with all we have. Calistoga City Police and Fire are not in charge of my safety in those areas…it comes from County…or the County Seat in Napa - 45 minutes away. There is a lot that outsiders do not comprehend about our agricultural lifestyle. BTW, “City” is less than a mile from me.

I fully understand that. And I thought I was clear in my post that this isn’t really about adjusting the Ag aspects of the area for housing, it is about allowing for better densities (height) than the zoning currently allows.

I am in agreement with Victor on the concept that higher densities can lead to lower congestion (cars) if the densities are where the need for the jobs are. If you force a 5 story condo (or apartment) complex to go up outside of town but within a reasonable commute you will force those people to all use cars to get back to town to work. That’s a compounding issue you’d think urban planners would work hard to avoid but empirical evidence appears to show otherwise.

Where does the extra water come from? Where do they put the extra grocery stores?

[Victor_Hong]

We have density zoning…it’s called “City” and the Ag Preserve is in “County.” We do not receive city services in the Ag Preserve, or in “County.” County or Ag Preserve has limited natural resources and we protect them with all we have. Calistoga City Police and Fire are not in charge of my safety in those areas…it comes from County…or the County Seat in Napa - 45 minutes away. There is a lot that outsiders do not comprehend about our agricultural lifestyle. BTW, “City” is less than a mile from me.

I fully understand that. And I thought I was clear in my post that this isn’t really about adjusting the Ag aspects of the area for housing, it is about allowing for better densities (height) than the zoning currently allows.

I am in agreement with Victor on the concept that higher densities can lead to lower congestion (cars) if the densities are where the need for the jobs are. If you force a 5 story condo (or apartment) complex to go up outside of town but within a reasonable commute you will force those people to all use cars to get back to town to work. That’s a compounding issue you’d think urban planners would work hard to avoid but empirical evidence appears to show otherwise.

Where does the extra water come from? Where do they put the extra grocery stores?

Much of CA water comes from non-CA sources.
Sprawl only increases water usage.

[Paul_Luckin]

I fully understand that. And I thought I was clear in my post that this isn’t really about adjusting the Ag aspects of the area for housing, it is about allowing for better densities (height) than the zoning currently allows.

I am in agreement with Victor on the concept that higher densities can lead to lower congestion (cars) if the densities are where the need for the jobs are. If you force a 5 story condo (or apartment) complex to go up outside of town but within a reasonable commute you will force those people to all use cars to get back to town to work. That’s a compounding issue you’d think urban planners would work hard to avoid but empirical evidence appears to show otherwise.

Where does the extra water come from? Where do they put the extra grocery stores?

Much of CA water comes from non-CA sources.
Sprawl only increases water usage.

turn on the spigot from The Delta and much of CA’s water problems are solved.

[Victor_Hong]

Maybe then people can sail boats to work.

[Paul_Luckin]

Maybe then people can sail boats to work.

About as effective as HSR, SF to LA.

But you knew that.

[David_Bu3ker]

That’s not an answer. Not that I expected one from you.

[Robert_M_yers]

Maybe Napa should decide what they want to be as it Doesn’t seem like any Ag community I know. If you wish to be Disneyland for grape growers then you need to deal with that directly and honestly. The cat is probably too far out of the bag to go back to being an honest to goodness farming community. You can only have your cake and eat it too for so long.

[Victor_Hong]

Maybe Napa should decide what they want to be as it Doesn’t seem like any Ag community I know. If you wish to be Disneyland for grape growers then you need to deal with that directly and honestly. The cat is probably too far out of the bag to go back to being an honest to goodness farming community. You can only have your cake and eat it too for so long.

Well, the place is loaded now with tractors…Chelsea tractors.

[Yao_C]

Maybe Napa should decide what they want to be as it Doesn’t seem like any Ag community I know. If you wish to be Disneyland for grape growers then you need to deal with that directly and honestly. The cat is probably too far out of the bag to go back to being an honest to goodness farming community. You can only have your cake and eat it too for so long.

True, but once you’ve experienced being stuck behind a tractor on a single lane road in the Willamette Valley you come to appreciate Napa’s Disney-like qualities

(actually who am I kidding I’ve been in some massive gridlock on the St Helena Highway)

[Markus_S]

Your response fell right into my trap: That is the other-world, self-inflicted, conflicted nature of California policies.

Zoning laws fight denser home construction at economic activity centers, while anti-pollution policies try to fight the resultant automobile sprawl for commuting to and from there. The escalated rents and prices of homes then feed new homelessness, now among the workers at restaurants, stores, schools, etc. Both policies cannot simultaneously succeed, and the latter seems likely to continue dominating, while the latter fails. Meanwhile, the social and economic costs of both will hit every citizen and consumer.

California thereby manages to blow off all eleven of its ten toes, with a half-loaded six-barrel pistol.

Well, we could all be Houston, which has no zoning.

[Victor_Hong]

Your response fell right into my trap: That is the other-world, self-inflicted, conflicted nature of California policies.

Zoning laws fight denser home construction at economic activity centers, while anti-pollution policies try to fight the resultant automobile sprawl for commuting to and from there. The escalated rents and prices of homes then feed new homelessness, now among the workers at restaurants, stores, schools, etc. Both policies cannot simultaneously succeed, and the latter seems likely to continue dominating, while the latter fails. Meanwhile, the social and economic costs of both will hit every citizen and consumer.

California thereby manages to blow off all eleven of its ten toes, with a half-loaded six-barrel pistol.

Well, we could all be Houston, which has no zoning.

The flood risk of the Houston region obviates zoning benefits. A flooded home is no better off, if next to another flooded home or a flooded tannery.

[Victor_Hong]

Please quit regurgitating the same ol’ same ol’ generic pablum that you usually do.

Instead, kindly and specifically advise us how an agricultural community that has metamorphosed into a luxury destination can solve issues around housing, infrastructure and transportation without resorting to eminent domain?

Will the children growing up in your neighborhood be able to afford living there also, when adults?