An anomalous 2006 Taittinger Comtes de Champagne and 1996 Williams Selyem Sonoma County Pinot Noir

[Blake_Brown]

Blake,

Yes, I am sure some degree of Maillard reaction had ocurred, but I am in the camp that it takes many years for the real effects of the post-disgorgement Maillard reaction to be felt; this reaction happens very slowly under the conditions of a normally stored Champagne. Most of what I think you are tasting with the 2006 Comtes is from the wine’s general character, touches of oak, autolysis, and whatever may have been done with the dosage. I feel the Maillard reaction effects are still years away. Both autolysis and the Maillard reaction can have similar toasted, roasted, nutty notes, but I find the pastry, toasty, biscuity, baked bread notes on wines that are less than five years post-disgorgement to be much more driven by the effects of autolysis (and other things) rather than the Maillard reaction. In the big picture, both autolysis and the Maillard reaction contribute to the post disgorgement development of the wine. It is this pair along with other reactions that occur with the introduction of oxygen and the liqueur d’Expedition at disgorgement that really drive how Champagne develops.

After that long winded explanation, the short answer is that, yes, I think you had an off/variable bottle. As I have stated elsewhere, I feel variable or boring bottles of the 06 Comtes BdB are higher than in most other vintages of Comtes, but on the bright side, most 06 Comtes BdB is yummy, yummy, yum.

Brad,
I really appreciate the discussion on the Maillard reaction and other factors that can contribute to brioche notes.

Im a fan of yummy and feel blessed to have had close to 100% of yummy good bottles of the 06 Comtes.

[crickey]

Blake,

It sounds like you might be looking at the bottom of the bottle. I should have been more clear. The Lot number is still on the main body of the bottle, just towards the bottom and often just under the back or front label. For example, under the back label of the bottle you might find a hard to see laser etched lot code of something like L7313…; this code means the bottle was disgorged in late 2017 or sometime around the 313th day of 2017.

That was a useful tip. I added the information to my bottle notes. I hope there isn’t too much difference in the different disgorgements.

Update: I checked some other bottles (different vintages). They have numbers which, following the system above, would indicate a date not falling within the calendar year (one was L5393 and the other was L8396). What does that mean?

[Warren_Taranow]

.

… have had close to 100% of yummy good bottles of the 06` Comtes.

and me as well. 2 or 3 good rather than great bottles out of many cases.
There’s great information in this thread!

Cheers,
Warren

[Brad_Baker]

That was a useful tip. I added the information to my bottle notes. I hope there isn’t too much difference in the different disgorgements.

Update: I checked some other bottles (different vintages). They have numbers which, following the system above, would indicate a date not falling within the calendar year (one was L5393 and the other was L8396). What does that mean?

Chris,

This has been reported elsewhere as well though it isn’t common and I have never seen a number go higher than 396 (though they may exist). There is a theory (though I have never asked) that either they don’t start the counter at 000 or that the counter doesn’t always reset correctly (again, no one has confirmed this for me, but I have seen this happen with other producers). This theory could mean that 396 would equal 365 + 31 or January 31st of the following year or maybe even the same year depending on which counter doesn’t move (the year, the day, both?). Taittinger confirmed the overall code to me close to a decade ago and others have also concurred this same information. In general, it is consistent on bottlings with what is expected and matches disgorgement dates given by Taittinger so I think it is correct, but would be happy to learn more.

What Taittinger wines do you have that contain the codes listed above?

[crickey]

That was a useful tip. I added the information to my bottle notes. I hope there isn’t too much difference in the different disgorgements.

Update: I checked some other bottles (different vintages). They have numbers which, following the system above, would indicate a date not falling within the calendar year (one was L5393 and the other was L8396). What does that mean?

Chris,

This has been reported elsewhere as well though it isn’t common and I have never seen a number go higher than 396 (though they may exist). There is a theory (though I have never asked) that either they don’t start the counter at 000 or that the counter doesn’t always reset correctly (again, no one has confirmed this for me, but I have seen this happen with other producers). This theory could mean that 396 would equal 365 + 31 or January 31st of the following year or maybe even the same year depending on which counter doesn’t move (the year, the day, both?). Taittinger confirmed the overall code to me close to a decade ago and others have also concurred this same information. In general, it is consistent on bottlings with what is expected and matches disgorgement dates given by Taittinger so I think it is correct, but would be happy to learn more.

What Taittinger wines do you have that contain the codes listed above?

L8396 is a 2007. L5393 is a 1996. Obviously, the numbers are not easy to read, but because I was surprised they were greater than 365 I paid closer attention.

[Bryan_Price]

Keep those WS notes coming Blake! I especially enjoy the pics.

How did you know you loved WS so much and that it would age so well to the point you felt safe loading up on it to drink many bottles later on? Did you feel like you were taking a risk at any point?

[Brad_Baker]

L8396 is a 2007. L5393 is a 1996. Obviously, the numbers are not easy to read, but because I was surprised they were greater than 365 I paid closer attention.

Both dates (from a year perspective) are in the right range. I’ll have to see what I can find out. Someone once mentioned to me that maybe the number after the year was a week and not a day, but I haven’t seen anything in the 40s or 50s that would have this make sense.

[Blake_Brown]

Keep those WS notes coming Blake! I especially enjoy the pics.

How did you know you loved WS so much and that it would age so well to the point you felt safe loading up on it to drink many bottles later on? Did you feel like you were taking a risk at any point?

Thanks Bryan.

I became a fan of WS wines in the late 1980s. I joined with a friend to purchase part of his allotment for each release and loved the wines out of the gate. In the late 1990s, I met Burt Williams who also had a part time home in Santa Barbara. We became close friends and spent many wondrous times together celebrating the righteous juice, mostly his.

I’ve continued to collect and drink the wines and discovered they had longevity, maintained close to their original character profiles and had amazingly high viability with no or little flaws, i.e, cork issues, Brett, VA etc.
More notes are imminent as I have about 60 bottles remaining.

[Blake_Brown]

L8396 is a 2007. L5393 is a 1996. Obviously, the numbers are not easy to read, but because I was surprised they were greater than 365 I paid closer attention.

Both dates (from a year perspective) are in the right range. I’ll have to see what I can find out. Someone once mentioned to me that maybe the number after the year was a week and not a day, but I haven’t seen anything in the 40s or 50s that would have this make sense.

And I’m still waiting Brad for someone to get back to me from the house answering this question after receiving a message that it was being pursued in response to my request.

[Blake_Brown]

Although part of forthcoming thread, our dinner group enjoyed some great wines last night and another bottle of the 06` Comtes was as expected, superlative. This one clearly showed on the back label it was disgorged in September 2016. There was no etched code.???

[JDonner]

Color looks good on the WS and still alive(Great Storage?)
I have a 2000 Magnum of Sonoma County I need to open.
Cheers!

[Blake_Brown]

Color looks good on the WS and still alive(Great Storage?)
I have a 2000 Magnum of Sonoma County I need to open.
Cheers!

Unknown storage prior to purchase in an online auction.

It’s good to remember, Burt filled his bottles to the cork, so when we look at older bottles during his WS tenure= 1983-1997, a low shoulder would represent quite a bit of ullage and possibly a warning of previous storage/ handling issues.

BTW, Burt bottled most of his wines in mags, mostly for his own stash, and those bottles sold at retail are the most reliable and long lasting.

[Brad_Baker]

Blake,

In looking at all of my notes and also looking at the notes of others where lot numbers were noted and specific disgorgement dates were given by Taittinger, the lot number etched on the bottle with the YDDD decoding does appear to hold weight. It equates to a date that is usually a couple weeks to a couple months after the disgorgement. As I said earlier, this code won’t give you the exact disgorgement date, but is a very good approximation. The lot number is likely more closely linked to labelling or another item in the readying for shipment process that occurs after disgorgement.

Your latest 2006 Comtes BdB bottle has me scratching my head. I have never seen a bottle of Comtes in the wild with a disgorgement date on it and you need to have a lot number on any bottle sent out for sale (yes, sometimes this can get missed, but it isn’t normal). Taittinger did originally plan to introduce disgorgement dates on bottles back around 2014, but that got scuttled as roles and people changed within Taittinger leadership. The only time I have ever seen a disgorgement date on a Comtes bottle was when tasting at the house with bottles that were prepared specifically for the tasting. Where did your bottle come from? Happen to have a picture. Cool stuff!

[Blake_Brown]

Blake,

In looking at all of my notes and also looking at the notes of others where lot numbers were noted and specific disgorgement dates were given by Taittinger, the lot number etched on the bottle with the YDDD decoding does appear to hold weight. It equates to a date that is usually a couple weeks to a couple months after the disgorgement. As I said earlier, this code won’t give you the exact disgorgement date, but is a very good approximation. The lot number is likely more closely linked to labelling or another item in the readying for shipment process that occurs after disgorgement.

Your latest 2006 Comtes BdB bottle has me scratching my head. I have never seen a bottle of Comtes in the wild with a disgorgement date on it and you need to have a lot number on any bottle sent out for sale (yes, sometimes this can get missed, but it isn’t normal). Taittinger did originally plan to introduce disgorgement dates on bottles back around 2014, but that got scuttled as roles and people changed within Taittinger leadership. The only time I have ever seen a disgorgement date on a Comtes bottle was when tasting at the house with bottles that were prepared specifically for the tasting. Where did your bottle come from? Happen to have a picture. Cool stuff!

I can understand the confusion Brad re the code on the 06` Comtes as it appears this bottle has a label adapted for it. I’ve never seen it before on any vintage of Comtes. Here’s a photoL

[crickey]

Blake, that is the Wine Advocate tasting note for the wine, which someone reproduced on a sticker. The tasting note indicated that the wine the reviewer tasted had been disgorged in September 2016 (incidentally, the same batch as my first tasting note for this wine).

[Blake_Brown]

Blake, that is the Wine Advocate tasting note for the wine, which someone reproduced on a sticker. The tasting note indicated that the wine the reviewer tasted had been disgorged in September 2016 (incidentally, the same batch as my first tasting note for this wine).

And, once again, there was no etched code- we held up cell phone lights and inspected it completely. How can that be? Maybe it was under the front label, but why?

[Brad_Baker]

Blake,

That is quite a back label; it should get a prize. It looks like a bottle that was meant for the French market that was then likely gray imported into the US (can’t tell who the importer is) and then went through both JJ Buckley and Wine bid. Someone along the way also attached a homemade review label with a disgorgement date that likely does not link to the bottle in question. At least you know some of where the bottle has been; it is kind of like stamps in a passport.

As to the lack of a lot number, there are always cases where this is missed, doesn’t etch properly/wears off, or is done in the wrong location. With Comtes, it is now normally directly below the back label, but it might be under one of the Taittinger labels or even the larger import sticker. Or, as mentioned, it never got on the bottle, wore off, or was done in such a light way that you can’t make it out.

[Blake_Brown]

Blake,

That is quite a back label; it should get a prize. It looks like a bottle that was meant for the French market that was then likely gray imported into the US (can’t tell who the importer is) and then went through both JJ Buckley and Wine bid. Someone along the way also attached a homemade review label with a disgorgement date that likely does not link to the bottle in question. At least you know some of where the bottle has been; it is kind of like stamps in a passport.

As to the lack of a lot number, there are always cases where this is missed, doesn’t etch properly/wears off, or is done in the wrong location. With Comtes, it is now normally directly below the back label, but it might be under one of the Taittinger labels or even the larger import sticker. Or, as mentioned, it never got on the bottle, wore off, or was done in such a light way that you can’t make it out.

I thought you might enjoy this made up back label. It may have been done by the guy who brought it and I’ll have to ask. I’ll also inquire as to its origin if he knows of it. It was taken by one of our members who then sends all the photos to me to add to my notes. I was so sure the etched code would be there, I had everyone pass it around with the phone light to see it and of course, it’s not to be found. Most importantly, it was a stellar bottle.