Apparently I haven’t done the research you have because everything I’ve seen and tasted, and all of the producers I have talked to, have shown me that both varietals have plenty of varietal character and the use of any type of oak is just a stylistic decision of the winemaker. I’ve had enough Spanish Garnacha and Tempranillo both that have been raised in stainless or fiberglass, concrete, neutral oak, American oak and French Oak to know that if you can’t find varietal character and quality in examples that aren’t heavily oaked that says more about you than about Tempranillo or Garnacha. I do know something about growing and vinifying both varietals, though I haven’t grown either personally. When you go back to Spain this fall you should explain to the winemakers there that they’re doing it wrong if they aren’t using a ton of American oak, I’m sure they’ll appreciate it.
You nailed it Ken, and to hop back to Jorge, Grenache and Tempranillo happen to fully ripen in certain parts of California, and not in Spain(except for Priorat)
They dont need any American oak at all. Just a little refinement in neutral large barrel(that happens to be an opinion by the way(Wink)) I agree, keep the oak away from Cali Grenache
There’s very little, if any, Tempranillo in Priorat, and I think you’re going to be in a very small minority of people who think that the rest of Spain can’t ripen either varietal. What wines have you tasted or just how ripe do you want your wine to be? Of the multitude of outlying opinions that get expressed (yay for the internet), claiming that Spain is afflicted by widespread underripeness is a totally new one to me!
As an aside, I’d love to hear more about the skins, ripening cycles and pH levels of Garnacha and Tempranillo and how these factors relate to a need to raise the wine in “massive American oak.”
My nutshell experience has been that american oak extracts faster and is more aromatic, while french is slower and is more “structural”. American oak is great for very fruity wines with a shorter aging cycle (zin). If you leave a wine in american oak too long, it makes everything taste australian.
I would think that alcohol might be a big factor here. The high alcohols of a lot of New World wines would extract more of the oak compounds, wouldn’t they? I wonder, too, if a lot the New World wines don’t undergo malolactic in barrel, which can affect the flavors quite markedly. I don’t know, but I would guess that the Riojas do not undergo malo in barrel. Just a thought.
I don’t know what the experience is in Rioja or with American oak, but I know that the Guigals maintain that after very long aging in barriques the oak integrates and becomes less conspicuous. They age their Cote Roties for two to three years on small barrels. The single-vineyard ones certainly show oak, but not as much as you might expect for three years of barriquing. And based on barrel samples the one time I visited there, the assertion seemed to be correct: The younger wines seemed oakier than those toward the end of their barrel treatment.
Finally, it doesn’t really go to the original question of why American oak might work better with Rioja than it does with New World wines, but I don’t think anyone has pointed out that American oak is a different species than the European oak, which explains the coarser grain and higher lactone levels. The difference is just a forest terroir issue.
As far as Priorat(I was speaking of GARNACHA)
As far as overripe wines(I dont drink them)
As far as fiberglass(they dont make Corvettes in Spain)
As far as skins and ripening cycles(email me seven2wice@yahoo.co.uk) or if you are in Dallas, stop by and we can enjoy some old Unico, say 64, 82, 89.
I don’t know crap about this, but my guess would be that it is all about toast levels, and % of new oak used. Rioja Gran Reserva has to spend 24 months in wood and another 3 in bottle (IIRC)- but do the rules specify the % of new wood, or toast levels?
Plus, I would guess that the wines themselves are less ripe and less extracted before being put in said barrel.
That is pretty much my take on it – a combination of ripeness / extraction, percentage of new wood, toast levels, and time in oak/bottle before release. While there are certainly a few 100% new American Oak Riojas, most of the really high new oak wines aren’t Gran Reservas and are using French oak (the “modernists”). These wines are frequently riper and more extracted. This may or may not, depending on one’s tastes and the individual wines in question, make them closer to the American / OZ examples quoted above. Lopez de Heredia uses 100% American oak but under 5% new. Muga and CVNE are using a bit more new but far from 100% (with the possible exception of Torremuga, but not sure that’s American oak either). Screaming examples of “modernism” in Rioja are, to me, the Contador wines, Roda’s Cirsion (their Roda I/II are much more fence straddling, stylistically, IMHO) and some of Artadi’s wines. These are largely French oak, but the bigger differences are ripeness, extraction, percentage of new wood, and aging before release…
Perhaps when you visit Spain this fall you will take note of a few of the fiberglass tanks in use in the wine industry worldwide.
You might also notice the folks NOT using American oak on their Garnacha and/or Tempranillo, though apparently you won’t like the wines as they’ll lack character. You might also notice the ease with which Garnacha and Tempranillo can reach formidable levels of ripeness in most of the country. Or, if I’m still wrong on that one, explain further how Priorat is the only region that can ripen it’s grapes. And I’m wondering how you can like any Spanish wines when the ONE region that can ripen the grapes sufficiently is also a region in which French oak vastly dominates in the cellars and American oak is rarely seen? Do you just drink a ton of Rotllan Torra Amadis?
I’m not likely to be in Dallas anytime soon, so please enlighten me and the rest of us about skins and ripening cycles and pH and their relationship to a need for American oak.
If you (do your research) you’ll find out that Unico hails from Ribera del Duero, which apparently can’t ripen it’s grapes, and is matured in a mix of new and used oak, French and American, so I’m not sure why I’d want to drink it?
Sure Jeff and Josh, but you are a pinot grower and maker and I was speaking of (SPANISH) temp and garnacha) and to answer your question, no not all thin skinned varieties lack personality, just the two in mention, in MY opinion in(SPAIN). As far as varietal character temp vines tend to very well are quite, medium to large crops of 8 to 12 tons per acre. High yields (may) sacrifice the hue(color) of the resulting juice and fruit flavors, acid level may reduce, and increase pH while delaying harvest. The PH itself is usually around 4ish give or take .3 at ripening. But then you have to take into account levels of anthocyanin present(which can affect ripening) and where you grow it and the type of soil. Is it a warm year or a cool year. Tons of variables. I happen to know where Unico hails from, did you google that!
Anything else!
Hey DLynn, be careful there. Anthocyanins don’t affect ripening, they are biosynthesized (typically by the ezymatic reduction of flavonols) in increasing concentrations during ripening. In other words, they are affected by the ripening process, not the other way around. What you say about increased yields affecting quality is true, but it isn’t unique to thin-skinned varieties, and I don’t think you can make sweeping generalizations about varieties being characterless because of skin thickness.
What the hell am I even doing in a spanish wine/american oak thread anyway? Pfft, I’m out-
I probably (shouldn’t) keep discussing (with) a random sentence generator but here goes.
temp vines to very 3m spacing quite dry farmed (bush vines) SPAIN). Spain tend to very well are quite (low yields) despite (most acres under vine in Europe). tempranillo can (be a high pH variety but that has (ZERO) correlation with varietal character. But then you have to take into account the fact that you’re regurgitating stuff you didn’t understand in broken English and just say peace out there is nothing more to be gained in this thread. Anything else!
Josh, not sure what that last post meant, but I was rushing out and I guess I forgot some words, As far as varietal character temp vines tend to GROW very well can be quite HEARTY. I was again, rushing out.
Also, I also never said in any of my threads that Spaniards didnt use French oak. I only responded as to why they used American! Ciao. Mogador is drinking well right now.
Jeff your right about the antho’s, other way around! I Need to taste the current Rhys!
I think that one has to recall the antecedents of the expansion both of vineyards and the wine trade in Rioja were based strongly in France at the time that phylloxera was ravaging so many of France’s great traditional wine producing regions. Much of Rioja’s history at this time was tied to French winemaking refugees trying to escape phylloxera, and importing French oak for the wines at that time would have been foolhardy, given that so little was yet known about the causes of phylloxera. American oak was considered the finest option (outside of French wood) at that time, and according to Maria Jose Lopez de Heredia, her forefathers and the other estate owners in these formative days in Rioja in the late 1870s, selected to use American oak for their wines simply based on perceived quality.
However, one has to remember that this traditional marriage of American oak and Rioja is based on long elevage in old barrels, not high percentages of new wood, and I think this is why the synthesis of American oak flavors and Rioja is considered much more suave than other regions (such as Australia) that might be using American oak, as the other regions most often will be using a significantly higher percentage of new barrels during the aging process of their wines. American oak generally does not have as fine of a grain as French oak, and so it will impart its flavors much more briskly than its French counterpart when the barrels are new, and it is much easier to go overboard with American oak because of this less fine grain.
But I for one love the flavors and aromatics imparted in red wines by American oak when utilized in the traditional Rioja style, where the old wood barrels provide an almost “coconutty” tone to the wood that can really be delightful with red wine aromatics and flavors, particularly when the wines reach a mature stage of development. And I think that it is certainly conceivable that this very agreeable tone from American oak could be replicated with other varietals and other regions, if the same methodolgy was used in the cellars- i.e. older barrels and long elevage before bottling. But most new oak in reality is used these days for the “wow factor” in early comparative tastings, as the use of a high percentage of new oak tends to really amplify the expression of fruit early on in a wine’s development, as well as delivering the panoply of aromas and flavors from the new wood, so the wine is much more flattering to taste right out of the blocks when it typically gets scored and finds its appropriate (?) tariff in the marketplace. And these very real economic concerns on the part of producers will probably keep anyone from experimenting with longer elevage periods in older American oak barrels a la the traditionalists in Rioja, as there are few winery owners in the world today that are willing to incur the additonal expenses of longer barrel aging, particularly if they are sacrificing their “wow factor” as well in the process, simply to see if they can make a better wine.
importing French oak for the wines at that time would have been foolhardy, given that so little was yet known about the causes of phylloxera.
Welcome to the board John. I infer from the above that once the cause was known, the Spanish winemaking community decided to “stick with” American oak even though the origin of phylloxera was America ?
I look forward to digesting your contributions here.
Oh, and I forgot to say that I don’t think you’ll find much of a consensus that tempranillo is a thin-skinned grape variety. I only grow one clone (D8V12) but even just from that experience would not characterise this as a thin-skinned variety.
I seemed to have caused quite a stir. Yes, I believe the D8V12 is a Uc Davis clone but cant really remember, been drinking killer Spanish, Bordeaux, Cult old Cali, and a few blind magnums. The pic I just posted is with me about an hour ago with a few almost empty bottles of what I just popped; 68 Cune, 89 Paternina Gran R, 07 Atteca Old Vine, 06 Mogador(lotta sulfur), all Spanish these! Just opinions with some facts thrown in, now I have 6 people after me. Didnt appreciate the BS Icon Jeff or Josh, I forget your name, but it is all cool, I am off this post. Will drink more old Spanish tomorrow!
Cheers!
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A precise and somewhat concise answer to the original question. “It’s the age of the barrels, dummy.”