Alt Nautral wine with a dope label 2015 Hirotake Ooka Cornas (France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, Cornas)

[Eric_Lundblad]

@m. ristev

@Doug Schulman

I completely agree with Alan. I’ll add what is probably the biggest issue with producers who use extremely little or no SO2: lack of microbial stability. I find that to be a far more widespread issue than oxidation, which is quite preventable without SO2 with appropriate winemaking and handling techniques. At this point, I can usually tell when a winemaker is in the low/no SO2 camp upon tasting the wine, and that isn’t a good thing. Some people like Lapierre seem to have gotten quite good at it, but even he has had problems in ripe vintages (I’ve seen multiple bad bottles from 2009 and 2015). I recognize that there are other exceptions, but even among them, consistency isn’t there, and you never know when you’re going to get a bottle that’s been overwhelmed by issues with brett or malolactic bacteria. I think this style of winemaking is irresponsible to the consumer.

this is the culprit. bizot is successful at sans soufre because he only uses new wood which thus avoids problems concerning sanitation.

Unfortunately this isn’t the case. A significant sources of Brett contamination is new oak…the Brett yeast feed on the sugars in the new oak staves, only to find wine later to feed on. Old/neutral oak that has been steamed, barrel blasted (a device that shoots high pressure water in the barrel to remove stuff) and ozoned every year is a more reliable safeguard.

[Eric_Lundblad]

@c fu

(stuff removed for brevity)
You haven’t really lived until you’ve had allemand SS with 15+ years on it. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the 2001 Allemand SS that JBray opened in May 2017 is one of the top 3 syrahs I’ve had

I bought a couple of 01 Allemand SS from Kermit. I opened one early on, in too large a group unfortunately…it was fairly tight initially an never got a chance to open up. I had the second bottle in late 2013 (stored in an offsite storage since) and it was off…not offensively so, but still off. So that was sad. I have nothing to complain about, since I’ve had many excellent bottles of Allemand…including a 6 pack of 99 Chaillot that I got for cheap cuz of their scary high ullage, due to unhappy treatment prior to me…yet all those bottles showed very well to brilliantly. Go figure. I’d be cautious about aging the SS’s tho.

[Bruce_G1]

@c fu

it’s weird cause he’s a chemistry major. So I guess it’d be the same as doctors advocating for anti vaxx.

How is it weird?
He’s not out prescribing treatments for others.
He’s testing out his own ideas on a specific plot of land and seeing what happens.
Seems like the very essence of the scientific method.

[DougS]

There’s nothing scientific about his approach.

[Bruce_G1]

A nonsensical comment.
You may dislike some of the more unusual aspects of his approach and question the validity of some of his choices.
But “nothing”?.. that’s not a defensible statement.

[DougS]

“[T]he very essence of the scientific method” was the nonsensical comment. I’m not saying everyone has to share my views on whether or not his approach makes sense, but without any basis for comparison (farming some vines with treatments, using SO2 on some of the wine, etc), it is in no way scientific. He is certainly not experimenting or testing anything with an approach even reminiscent of the scientific method, let alone the essence of it.

[m_ristev]

@Eric Lundblad

@m. ristev

@Doug Schulman

I completely agree with Alan. I’ll add what is probably the biggest issue with producers who use extremely little or no SO2: lack of microbial stability. I find that to be a far more widespread issue than oxidation, which is quite preventable without SO2 with appropriate winemaking and handling techniques. At this point, I can usually tell when a winemaker is in the low/no SO2 camp upon tasting the wine, and that isn’t a good thing. Some people like Lapierre seem to have gotten quite good at it, but even he has had problems in ripe vintages (I’ve seen multiple bad bottles from 2009 and 2015). I recognize that there are other exceptions, but even among them, consistency isn’t there, and you never know when you’re going to get a bottle that’s been overwhelmed by issues with brett or malolactic bacteria. I think this style of winemaking is irresponsible to the consumer.

this is the culprit. bizot is successful at sans soufre because he only uses new wood which thus avoids problems concerning sanitation.

Unfortunately this isn’t the case. A significant sources of Brett contamination is new oak…the Brett yeast feed on the sugars in the new oak staves, only to find wine later to feed on. Old/neutral oak that has been steamed, barrel blasted (a device that shoots high pressure water in the barrel to remove stuff) and ozoned every year is a more reliable safeguard.

interesting, i was referring to mousiness (think kombucha aftertaste) which from what i have read is a lacto spoilage. it is very common in natural wines where hygiene practices are not up to par and old oak is used. although, i can’t think of any wines aged in 100% new oak i have tasted which had brett.

[DougS]

No, because those using 100% new oak are spending quite a bit of money on that wine and are likely to do well with quality control. I think what Eric says is true, though: new oak is one of the major potential sources of brettanomyces.

Yeah, I think that kombucha thing in wine is from malolactic bacteria. So gross. My understanding is that those bacterial issues are usually from a failure to stabilize the wine before bottling and that they tend to happen in bottle.

[Bruce_G1]

@Doug Schulman

but without any basis for comparison (farming some vines with treatments, using SO2 on some of the wine, etc), it is in no way scientific.

The premise is that he can grow grapes and make economically viable quantities of quality wine without chemical inputs (or something akin to that… I don’t intend to speak for him).
There is no reason to test the anti-thesis as it is already proven. Indeed the entire world of wine is dependent upon the fact that you can do so if you use sufficient amounts of certain chemicals.

[larry_schaffer]

@Bruce G.

@Doug Schulman

but without any basis for comparison (farming some vines with treatments, using SO2 on some of the wine, etc), it is in no way scientific.

The premise is that he can grow grapes and make economically viable quantities of quality wine without chemical inputs (or something akin to that… I don’t intend to speak for him).
There is no reason to test the anti-thesis as it is already proven. Indeed the entire world of wine is dependent upon the fact that you can do so if you use sufficient amounts of certain chemicals.

Not exactly. This was a fallow land until he planted. Perhaps this piece of land is 'unique ’ and requires different inputs.

Is always a good idea to test hypotheses.

[Bruce_G1]

@larry schaffer

Not exactly. This was a fallow land until he planted. Perhaps this piece of land is 'unique ’ and requires different inputs.

Is always a good idea to test hypotheses.

So you’re saying that this piece of land may be so different from the rest of the appellation that it might be impossible to farm WITH chemicals?

[larry_schaffer]

@Bruce G.

@larry schaffer

Not exactly. This was a fallow land until he planted. Perhaps this piece of land is 'unique ’ and requires different inputs.

Is always a good idea to test hypotheses.

So you’re saying that this piece of land may be so different from the rest of the appellation that it might be impossible to farm WITH chemicals?

What I’m saying is that it’s never a bad idea to test hypotheses rather than simply believe what others have done before you. It may seem ludicrous, but why go to the hassles of buying land and planting it if it turns out that it’s impossible or at a minimum very very difficult to get a decent crop?

[Bruce_G1]

@larry schaffer

It may seem ludicrous, but why go to the hassles of buying land and planting it if it turns out that it’s impossible or at a minimum very very difficult to get a decent crop?

I understand your point and don’t consider it ludicrous at all.
But Ooka san obviously has different priorities and different goals.
He’s just getting started.
If he’s still at it 30 years from now and still experiencing calamitous crop losses 3 out of every 5 years I would begin to wonder what he was trying to achieve.

For now, though, I’m grateful that he’s asking questions that few others are.
I hope it ends well for him.

[Richard_Albert]

Do I have to sign a waiver to drink this “wine”?

[Bryan_Carr]

I drank a bunch of Foillard and then had a fully-paired meal at Contra on the LES and was all aboard the natural wine train. Then we went to France last week and 99% of the natural wine we had was atrocious, I think having a gatekeeper like the bev director at Contra or Kermit Lynch/Rare Wine Co. makes a big difference, and honestly I’ll probably not roll the dice on natural wine much in the future, I’m cured.

[Gene_Ferrara]

My only experience with Ooka was with the 13 Grande Colline. Both bottles had a ton of CO2 in that upon opening they frothed past the mouth like a shaken bottle of Champagne.

They also quickly developed “the mouse” on the palate - bacterial spoilage, garlic, rotten flavors.

I did a shake on one, it just made it worse.

Never went back, too many other good wines to enjoy.

I also drink alot of Foillard and other wines that some people might find too “bretty” or volatile (or just plain funky).

[m_ristev]

the mouse is the most vile of wine faults in my opinion. apparently some people enjoy it though!?

[DougS]

@Bruce G.

@larry schaffer

It may seem ludicrous, but why go to the hassles of buying land and planting it if it turns out that it’s impossible or at a minimum very very difficult to get a decent crop?

I understand your point and don’t consider it ludicrous at all.
But Ooka san obviously has different priorities and different goals.
He’s just getting started.
If he’s still at it 30 years from now and still experiencing calamitous crop losses 3 out of every 5 years I would begin to wonder what he was trying to achieve.

For now, though, I’m grateful that he’s asking questions that few others are.
I hope it ends well for him.

So, being able to make wine is the sole measure of success? Nothing about the quality of that wine? That does seem ludicrous. When the question of quality (even just a lack of faults, let alone how good the wine is) enters the picture, his approach isn’t teaching him anything. I’m not grateful to anyone who is okay with the end consumer getting a fizzy, faulty bottle that might exceed legal maximum allowable volatile acidity or have any number of other problems.

[Kevin_Kitagawa]

@Doug Schulman

@Bruce G.

@larry schaffer

It may seem ludicrous, but why go to the hassles of buying land and planting it if it turns out that it’s impossible or at a minimum very very difficult to get a decent crop?

I understand your point and don’t consider it ludicrous at all.
But Ooka san obviously has different priorities and different goals.
He’s just getting started.
If he’s still at it 30 years from now and still experiencing calamitous crop losses 3 out of every 5 years I would begin to wonder what he was trying to achieve.

For now, though, I’m grateful that he’s asking questions that few others are.
I hope it ends well for him.

So, being able to make wine is the sole measure of success? Nothing about the quality of that wine? That does seem ludicrous. When the question of quality (even just a lack of faults, let alone how good the wine is) enters the picture, his approach isn’t teaching him anything. I’m not grateful to anyone who is okay with the end consumer getting a fizzy, faulty bottle that might exceed legal maximum allowable volatile acidity or have any number of other problems.

Quality according to whom? It isn’t like he’s trying to get something by everyone because he’s just too damn lazy to do anything about it…His approach may not work out for him in the end…but he’s consciously trying to do something that maybe none of us understand…I’m with Bruce, I appreciate that someone is trying something different…even though there is a chance that it may not work out for them…

For you, the consumer, the option is simple…if you don’t like his wines - Don’t buy them.

[CFu]

i bought some more if it means anything.