You clearly have a lot more experience than I do, Mark, and I’d be inclined to trust your judgment over my own when it comes to long-term forecasting. My last taste of 2010 Pape was not long after release, and I don’t have any in the cellar, so I’ll have to mooch off of Bob H. to find out how it turns out. Have you tried the 2005 Pape? I’m waiting on a few of those in the cellar.
I think we agree on what constitutes “aging well.” I’m looking for more than just softening. I want complexity.
Several themes in this thread.
One is, do “today’s” Bordeaux (say, 1995-present) develop more slowly irrespective of style? The answer is an unequivocal YES. At least for the vintages 1995-2000 — which are old enough that we have a good sense of how they’ve aged — and especially for more traditionally style chateau. The 96s are now 22 years old and I’m still amazed how primary these are. Same for the 95s and 98s by and large. When I attended a big horizontal of top 1986 Bordeaux at age 22, they were far more developed than the 96s today.
This is a separate question if modern styled Bordeaux age well (they don’t).
Tried it David, and I am afraid I found it too lacked any real sense of terroir. Post 1998, I have not enjoyed the reds here.
If you can find a 1986, they are at their apogee. 1996 is also pretty good, and just beginning to develop those tertiary characteristics.
I have very much liked the 1966 and 1970 and, while it has been a long time since I had the 1966, I have had the 1970 in the three years or so and thought it was fantastic.
I think we should divide the topic into three sub-discussions.
How will the classified growths age?
IMO, the 09 and the 10 will age exceptional well. In general, I find most of them to be beautifully balanced, very pure and clean. The selection, both at the vineyards and the cellar, is much more severe. For the most properties, grand vin production is significantly lower. I can only think of one property that has gone over the top. IMO, the modern Cos D’estournel wines will overcome the modern expression with time.
How will the super modern garagiste wines will age?
I recently opened the 01 Valandraud. The fruit started to fade and the oak tannins was bothersome. It is a fight between the fruit and oak. Also, the fruit expression is not terribly complex.
How will the rest age?
I believe 97% plus of the production. In general, the quality has significantly improved. A small number of producers went overboard, way too ripe and too much oak. Most of the wines have better concentration which will help them to age.
For those who love the 60s through early 80s Bordeauxs, these are anomalies. The pre 60s, especially 20s and earlier, Bordeauxs are much more concentrated and structured not unlike the 09 and 10. BTW, the 47 CB shows a pronounced port note, perhaps the 03 Pavie in thirty years? Not that I like the 03 vintage, but a lot of the wines shed the ripe 03 expression.
Kevin, I very rarely disagree with you… but, I seriously doubt that they way wine from the 1928 or 1929 vintage was made even vaguely resembled – in terms of yield, cellar practices, brix at harvest, sugar additions, whatever – what was made in 2010.
None of us were there and, regardless of how many of them someone has tasted – no one really knows. Also, most of what people have tasted is probably some combination of fake or adulterated anyway.
Also:
I don’t wax nostalgic for 1970s or 1960s Bordeaux. Most of it was shit. My fundamental premise is this:
Picking ripe grapes earlier, producing a lower alcohol wine, and subjecting it to less / less toasty oak produces a different wine than you get when you restrict yields in a draconian fashion, go for absolute full phenolic ripeness / include over-ripe fruit, achieve much higher alcohol, RO the wine, and put it in a lot of new, high toast wood.
The latter wine will be rated higher by most critics en premier. This is an objective fact. The latter wine will be preferred by most people on release and for the years following release. I’d argue that the more one goes toward the latter, the more the wine starts to taste like everything else made in a similar style (ripe fruit covered in oak).
To say that they will necessarily evolve similarly or that because one shows better younger to a wider audience shouldn’t be confused with it’s long-term quality. Note: I am not saying it won’t be better because I don’t know. However, I am increasingly skeptical at the extremes, in particular.
Cheers.
And this is what they used to say about Burgundy(!), which I find is more transparent about what you are getting. I’m not a large Bordeaux drinker, but some of the more modern styled ones I’ve had with age have seemed a bit dense and monolithic, showing younger than their age but nothing transformative happening. I’d like to be wrong in how they eventually turn out, but I think I would drink them on the younger side than to see them become an oak shell.
Does advances in storage play a part here? It seems to me ---- don’t know if it’s true or not ---- that there is a much greater focus on proper storage now (with the modern wines) than there was previously (with the traditional wines). How long have actively-cooled wine cabinets, or actively-cooled cellars, or offsite storage, been commonplace?
Interesting question. I have 96 Lynch Bages from 2 sources, one where it was stored in a cool store for the first 5 years of its life, the second stored in a very warm store. The stuff that was stored less well early on is drinking very nicely right now with really nice tertiary aromas. The other stuff is still so young and secondary- at best- that I am waiting another 5-10 years before cracking open my last couple of bottles. Right now, those wines are much less enjoyable to me. However, I am guessing that when it is at that same stage of development, it will be at least slightly better than the other bottles, but I don’t know for sure. My takeaway from this so far: if you like those tertiary wines (and I do) you either have to wait 30+ years, or get wines that were stored too warm for at least awhile. (of course, by the time I answer this for sure to my satisfaction, I’ll be so old it won’t matter anyway.
I’ve had a similar experience with two different wines: 1983 Prieure Lichine and 1989 Lynch Bages. It convinced me that storage temps do make a difference in speed of evolution.
My father and I split 3 cases of the 83 Prieure Lichine on release. His was stored in his basement, which got up to 73 or 74 degrees in the summer. Mine was kept in a temp controlled cellar at 55 degrees. I inherited his bottles after 6 years and had multiple chances to compare them over the years, both blind and unblind. The passively stored bottles developed several years ahead of the actively stored bottles, and had a shorter plateau, though they seemed to reach the same height.
The 89 Lynch that I’ve had in the cellar since release continues to develop at a glacial pace, just starting to show signs of aged complexity. I keep saying “5 more years.” They contrast with magnificent bottles of this wine that were bought on the secondary market at least 10 years post release. I don’t know exactly how they were stored but I’ll bet they weren’t at 55 degrees all that time. They have been so much better than my still-young cellared since release bottles that I’m tempted to take a few out of the cellar and let them see temps in the 70s for a few years.
If you haven’t enjoyed drinking 1989 Lynch Bages, that’s a problem with you, not the wine 
It’s a wine that defies age and who knows when it will be “mature,” but there was never a bad time to drink it in my opinion.
Storing Temp. does certainly influence the aging curve. Constantly 55 degrees may be perfect if you are young but if you plan to drink your Grands Crus at age 15 probably not the best idea.
This “battle” between the fans of modern and classical styled Bordeaux is senseless IMO because there are fans of both styles and the majority of wine drinkers is in between. I buy Bordeaux since a very long time and in the 70th last century etc. most Bordeaux were undrinkable when young. Before tannins and acid melted away it was hard if not impossible to predict what may happen. Your mouth was almost burnt when tasting wines after release. Some of the wines got actually better after 10 to 15 years in bottle but many never came around. Today its almost impossible to find such a questionable product. That is a big advantage for anybody who buys Bordeaux today. Only few wines are incompetently or careless made these days. That was very different 40 years ago. The truth was that mediocre wine was the rule and the good wines an exception. Today the opposite is reality. What a difference!
I see no reason why modern Bordeaux should not age well. A few Chateaux worked with too much new oak. Former Monbousquet comes to mind but the last vintages are better. And prices came back to reason. With few exceptions I am happy with the situation today. So many more opportunities to buy fine Bordeaux in all price categories. That is true in about any wine growing area. Germany is exploding in quality. I live in Baden / Germany and I discover a new talented young wine maker almost every month. So no shortage of fine wine in the world.
No disagreement here Craig. There’s enjoyment, and then there’s that peak experience enjoyment from a profound Bordeaux. I’ve never had an unenjoyable 1989 Lynch Bages, but I’ve wished I’d waited on some of my bottles when compared to those profound examples.
I just read this, and am writing to revoke your Sauvignon Blanc membership card. Please post a picture of said card cut into at least 5 pieces.
Signed: AFWE Sauvignon Blanc investigatory working group, International division.
I think 60 degrees F is a happy compromise. Still gentle ageing, but a bit faster than 55.
My natural underground cellar is 46-47°F in winter and max. 55° in summer - and I´m very happy with it.
I’m honestly not sure how these modern, riper, higher%
new oak. higher% of alcohol wines will age. I can only go by what I have noticed with the aussie fruit bombs.
These wines fall apart to the point of epic proportions.
What I can say about the more modern contrived
bordeaux is that they seem to lack that classic, old school soul that brought me to bordeaux in the first place. I hate having to spend my hard earned scheckles culling through the endless bordeaux producers to find that Sociando, '98 la grave a pomerol, '01 Bahans HB, '99 D’armailhac, '97 Potensac or '82 Talbot (using these examples as classically styled wines that blew my socks off in recent years) It appears much harder these days to find those wines, especially when your last bastian of classically styled fav’s go modern. Drink a La Grave a Pomerol now…yeesh, no heart, no soul, no nuance.
Alfert remember our Pavie tasting a few years back?
It completely left us scrambling to the cellar for redemption. We couldn’t erase that pain from our minds fast enough. Pavie is not bordeaux, it is a caricature of modern ultra-boring soul-sucking bordeaux…as for Monbousquet? I need not say more
Will they reveal itself in time? I hope so, but I am not optimistic. I believe many of the purists share the same opinion. Though there is evidence to support both sides, it’s clearly too early to say who is right and who is wrong.
May the most obvious, realistic, logical and rational thinking prevail in the end…and if that fails? Well then we must all apologize to Jeff…lol…jk
Your wines will be ready in 50 years!!
Alan…for Mrs. Alfert…M.E is ultimate panty dropper.
Don’t ask me how I know this…therefore I ask u to reinstate Sir Alfert’s privileges immediately.
Ok Alfert u may have to pop a Vatan for atonement…
and because I care so much, I’ll come along as a witness. ![[wink.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/04707e6a7bbb03e0153e349d8a9270d30e1e9525.gif "wink"){kind=small}