Advice for someone just starting out

[Sc0tt_F_tzgerald]

@Bryan Price

He go so excited I think he went online and bought another case of wine from Three Sticks.

You sure he’s not already a member of this board?

You were smart to find this board and ask your questions. A treasure trove of wine info with hundreds of years of experience, just on this thread. Wishing you well on your wine adventure…cheers!

[R_Gilbane]

Y’all a bunch of enablers!!

Loads of great advice here. I would only caution that it’s a life long pursuit so don’t fall prey to the desire to buy it all at once. You’re never going to miss out on a life changing opportunity simply by passing up on buying something that seems like a “must buy”. Something else is always right around the corner. Find a good group of like minded enthusiasts and it will take you further than you could ever imagine. You’ll find out this trip is as much, if not more so, about the people you meet and friends you make as it is about the wine.

[Bryan_Carr]

@Bryan Price

I am so genuinely excited by this list! I know where I’m traveling the next 20 years! I wonder for those living in the US, what was your introduction to international wines?

We’re in our early 30’s and about 3ish years into our journey, and have largely gotten our in-depth wine knowledge through travel as well. Honestly we initially got into wine through Lauren’s parents. They have been really into Washington wine since the early '80s, though international wine almost not at all, so discovering international wine was a deliberate effort on our part after we’d already decided that wine was “it” for us. We’re just starting down that road after getting a pretty thorough education on our local region these past few years. We’ve been on trips to Sonoma/Napa, Penedes (Cava), and Priorat and those trips have been incredibly educational. We’re doing the Mosel and the Rhone valley later this year which we’re super excited about as we know we love Rhone wines and don’t know much at all about German Riesling so it’s one part comfort one part education.

As far as learning more while we’re home, we’re part of a small local group of 30-something wine nerds that formally meet once a month for an educational tasting to broaden our horizons and maximize our exploratory dollar, and actually formalizing it has been really helpful. For a lot of regions it’s been hard to just sort of randomly buy and pray, having a group to kind of set goals and pool money has been really helpful. Also these forums have been really great to kind of see what producers people recommend and what people are buying as some regions can be a total minefield.

Also, check around town to see if local places are offering tastings! Sometimes it’s just a distributor tasting a bunch of random crap or a wine bar with a bad selection offering flights of cheap stuff that’s been open too long but sometimes there are places with an incredible wine program that do really great events that can be invaluable. Case in point, a local restaurant (Bastille) has a Beaujolais Nouveau release party every November and in addition to pouring the current year Nouveaus they also pour like 15-20 half-glasses of basically every relevant Cru Beaujolais producer from a variety of vintages. Our friends invited us to join them two years ago and having never tasted the region before I’m now a SERIOUS believer. Our local European food import store also has a great wine program and has educational tastings from time to time. We took a grower Champagne class and learned a ton.

The following posts definitely resonated with me.

@Barry Paul Price

Over-taste. Under-buy.

@Warren Taranow

I wish I had bought more high-end wines and less mid range or every day drinkers. However, things might be a little different for you today, as many high-end wines have become astronomically priced. You need to find a balance between every day drinkers, and wines to lay down. There are some wines that accomplish both; examples include Olga Raffault Chinon, Pepierre Briords Muscadet, Huet Vouvray, Lopez de Herredia Rioja Reservas, Felsina or Monsanto Chianti Classico Riservas, to name a few, as well as the above mentioned 2015 German Rieslings. (but don’t fall for the hype!)
5. Don’t ignore champagne. There are still some spectacular bottles that are very age worthy, and priced much lower than top notch Burgundies or Bordeaux.
6. I agree with the suggestion above to buy some older wines and see what you like with some age
9. Don’t trophy hunt, and don’t speculate.

@Ian Sutton

and the people side is not to be underestimated or under-rated. Wine can be the catalyst for great friendships and great memories (though too much wine can affect the latter, and far too much wine can affect the former!)

@andy velebil

Try anything and everything and don’t be afraid to say “Not my wheelhouse”, even to what has gotten a high score. It’s about what you like, not what anyone else likes. Over time you will learn what people’s palates are close to yours and you’ll learn to trust their recommendations.

Don’t ignore bubbles, they’re something I didn’t really pay attention to early on and lately decent bubbles is what I’m always craving, they’re SO versatile. The go with EVERYTHING and can be great on their own.
We have to second the recs for Olga Raffault Chinon, Huet Vouvray, and Cru Beaujolais from Foillard, Lapierre, etc. for their combination of “best in class”, “cellarable” and “not a bazillion dollars”.
Start buying some middle-aged and older wines early if you can, we’re only now starting to, and now that we’re mostly out of space I wish we’d bought more medium aged drinkable-now wines because we spend so much time hemming and hawing about what to drink as our cellar is relatively young.
Everyone likes different stuff, there’s things people here and elsewhere RAVE about that I absolutely can’t stand and there’s stuff that I love that people love to trash and vice versa. I really like barnyardy bretty horsey poopy wines, and I wouldn’t have discovered that if I’d taken someone’s word that they were gross. I don’t like Zinfandel aside from a few very small exceptions but I wouldn’t have found those exceptions (that I really really like) had I given up on Zin after trying only a small handful. Our tasting group is full of different opinions. There’s a guy who also loves funky, briny wines and we tend to agree on things, Lauren loves floral, elegant, ethereal wines, there’s someone who likes soapy, herbal, grandma’s purse wines. I think tasting with others and talking about it has made me more open-minded.

Your palate will change, holy heck will it change. I really liked big oaky WA Cab when I first started out and I’m less into it than I used to be. But it won’t change completely! One of my first epiphany moments with wine was a really barnyardy Chambolle Musigny VV and what I liked about that wine has been a through-line that has stayed steady, and I think plays out in some of the more sauvage Cru Beaujolais that I currently obsess over. Listen to your palate but don’t over-commit to stuff early on.

Wow that was a long rant. Great advice in this thread everyone! Also, welcome to the “Bryans on WB Club”, there’s like 6 of us.

[alan_weinberg]

store your wine properly.
There will always be another great vintage or great wine.
Buy an older wine of what you want to collect/store to see if you even like old wine.
Take expert reviews w hesitancy until you align your palate with a particular expert.
Subtract 5 from anything Buzz reviews–but learn a lot from experienced tasters like him.

[Nathan_Smyth]

@Bryan Price

Two questions:

1. Are these suckers bone-dry?
2. Where is the best place to buy them?

Traditionally the two biggest outlets for Riesling in Orange County were Winex & Hi-Time, but they’re not showing much dry Riesling right now - I had to look up towards Los Angeles & San Francisco for that.

Here are a few sample tastings from California shops:

Introduction to Off-Dry Versus Dry German Riesling

Donnhoff Riesling Nahe 2015
$21.98
https://www.winex.com/product/15465/Donnhoff_Riesling_Nahe_2015.html

DONNHOFF 2015 RIESLING TONSCHIEFER TROCKEN (DRY)
$26.98
https://www.hitimewine.net/donnhoff-2015-riesling-tonschiefer-trocken-dry-321206

Introduction to Sweet German Riesling

J. JOS PRUM 2015 RIESLING SPATLESE ZELTINGER SONNENUHR
$33.95
https://www.hitimewine.net/f-weins-prum-2010-riesling-kabinett-331135

J. JOS. PRUM 2015 RIESLING WEHLENER SONNENUHR SPATLESE
$38.98
https://www.hitimewine.net/jj-prum-2012-rl-wehlener-sonnenuhr-spatlese-320488

Introduction to Nicer Dry German Riesling

2015 Muller-Catoir Haardter Burgergaarten Breumel In Den Mauern Riesling Trocken Grosses Gewachs
$36.95

Muller-Catoir Haardter Burgergaarten Breumel In Den Mauern Riesling Trocken...

Donnhoff Riesling Dellchen Grosses Gewachs Trocken 2015
$49.95
https://www.cellardoorfinewines.com/product/donnhoff-riesling-dellchen-grosses-gewachs-trocken-2015/

Introduction to Dry Austrian Riesling

Nigl Riesling Kremstal Hochäcker 2015
$49.95
http://www.whwc.com/p/327576

Prager Riesling Smaragd Wachau Trocken Klaus 2015
$67.95
http://www.whwc.com/p/328157

Introduction to Nicer Dry Austrian Riesling

2015 FX Pichler Kellerberg Riesling Smaragd Wachau
$84.99
http://www.klwines.com/p/i?i=1279889

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

@Bryan Price

@Nathan Smyth

The only urgent need for you right now is to stock up on as much 2015 German Riesling as possible.

It’s a great vintage, and in a few more months, the big names [JJ Prum, Donnhoff, Selbach-Oster, etc] will have disappeared from the shelves, and you might have to wait another 10 or 15 years for a similar vintage.

Everything else can wait, but you need to hit 2015 Germany while you still can.

Two questions:

1. Are these suckers bone-dry?
2. Where is the best place to buy them?

Do you want them to be? I mean, Rieslings come in all different sweetness levels. Are you particularly looking for the dry ones? Because the producers who make the best sweet are not always the ones who make the best dry and vice versa. There are several extensive threads on 2015 Riesling, if you want to mine information.

[jcoley3]

All I can add is don’t worry too much about the mistakes you will (inevitably) make. No one gets it perfect.

[dteng]

@Mark Y

@Warren Taranow

I wish I had bought more high-end wines and less mid range or every day drinkers.

this. never have enough of the former… always endless supply of the latter…

But don’t over do it otherwise you will be posting in the “I have nothing to drink while my wines mature” thread!!

[Albert_R]

Everyone has a different formula. Take your time as you develop your formula. Yes, no one gets it 100% right so be prepared for that. A lot of good advice above.

[dcornutt]

@Paul Jaouen

I’m sure you’ll get a lot of responses. The first two tips that come to mind are 1) join or start a wine group. You can do different wine themes which will allow you to taste a lot more wine for less money than if you went out and bought all the wines. 2) Even if you are crazy about certain wines now like California pinot, do not go out and buy a ton as I guarantee your palate will change and the wines you like today may be the wines you dislike tomorrow.

Enjoy the ride.
You will have lots of fun.
There is no roadmap.
Treat it as an adventure and you won’t be disappointed.

I put in bold something that Paul said.
This is probably the best single piece of advice that I can think of at this point.

[Dennis_Borczon]

All of the above suggestions are worthy of thoughtful consideration. THE most important thing of all to realize is that NOBODY here has all the answers. Anyone who tries to tell you that your taste or likes of a certain type of wine indicate that you are a “sniff” peasant, is not worth your time.

Relax, this is a lifelong hobby/pursuit/experience. Travel, taste a lot, buy carefully. There is ALWAYS the next vintage.

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him…

[Max_K]

You’ve already got a great set of replies - and some contradictory advice - to work from. I would strongly endorse three things that have already been mentioned.

1 - Taste as much and as widely as you can when you don’t have to buy entire bottles. But definitely keep track somehow of what you’ve tasted, otherwise it’ll be harder to recognize patterns.
2 - Sarah’s recommendation to shell out for higher-end tastings and events is spot on, and will save you a lot of money in the long run. There are many different styles of “great” wine, sometimes from the same region. But what is technically great (or subjectively in the eyes of the market) may not be to your taste. Plus, having some high-end reference points will help you navigate how your palate aligns with others, and what sort of experience you’re chasing.
3 - As your palate develops and you begin to identify specific wines and regions that you really enjoy, make the transition from buying low and mid-range to buying more at the bottom for value, and the top for quality. Perennial sticker shock can lead to drinking lots of okay-to-good wine but rarely if ever having the kind of really exciting experiences you’re probably seeking if you’re adopting this as a hobby.

And I’d add one further recommendation of my own: while you should seek out ways to broaden your palate through free tastings and social events, I find it really helpful to focus my own drinking (and reading) on one region after another. It’s easier to learn things like regional geography, history, grape varietals, and producer profiles systemically for a given region than to try to build knowledge while constantly bouncing back and forth. If you focus for a month or two on a region, you’ll build a base of knowledge that will likely stick, and give you a comparative perspective over time.

Cheers, and welcome!

[Howard_Cooper]

A few thoughts - First, I found this rather funny: “French wine seems very interesting in my limited tastings but it seems so much harder to get into due to language barrier (it’s hard to remember the producer names) and limited access we have in California.” Limited access??? Half this board gets their Burgundies, Champagne, etc., from Envoyer Fine Wines in Irvine. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/‘’/envoyer+fine+wines/@33.6320511,-117.8104498,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m8!4m7!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x80dce7ded8e55cd5:0x8669900dcdc5c490!2m2!1d-117.7404097!2d33.6320708 I am sure there are other stores in your area with a ton of European wines - my guess is Wine Exchange and Woodland Hills Wine Company, but others can comment on where to get European wines in the LA area.

One thing you are doing well is getting to know one or a few retailers. A good retailer is the best way I know to learn about good wines. Many stores have tastings on Saturday afternoon or whatever. Find out what is available and go to them. As a good retailer gets to know what you like more or less, they will turn you onto a whole bunch of wines that you would not be able to find yourself.

Don’t get on a bunch of lists. I know it will be tempting, but it will limit your ability to learn because you will be buying the same wines over and over again. One exception might be Ridge because their wines are so good.

As others have said, form a wine tasting group and experiment. Have fun.

Don’t buy too much too soon. You can buy wines with age on them. Try them to see if you like the wines with age. I have received emails today (and most days) from Envoyer about aged wines.

If you like Pinot Noir from California, try Burgundy, try Oregon pinot, experiment.
If you like Cabernet from California, try Bordeaux.

Experiment with Nebbiolo from the Piedmont of Italy.

Southern Italy and Southern France are home to some of the best wine values in the world. A retailer can help.

Try, try, try.

2015 is an excellent vintage for German wines. But so have been 2013, 2012, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, etc. And these will not be the last excellent vintages from this or any other region. Don’t buy too much of anything right now. Buy to drink, not put away, until you know what you like. Buy broadly, not deeply.

Have fun.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Bryan Price

@Nathan Smyth

The only urgent need for you right now is to stock up on as much 2015 German Riesling as possible.

It’s a great vintage, and in a few more months, the big names [JJ Prum, Donnhoff, Selbach-Oster, etc] will have disappeared from the shelves, and you might have to wait another 10 or 15 years for a similar vintage.

Everything else can wait, but you need to hit 2015 Germany while you still can.

Two questions:

1. Are these suckers bone-dry?
2. Where is the best place to buy them?

Try both before you decide whether you only like dry Riesling or Riesling with residual sugar. Try them young and with some age. You may find surprises.

Look for local retailers that import wines from Rudy Wiest or Terry Theise. They are both really high quality importers of German wines.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Max K

2 - Sarah’s recommendation to shell out for higher-end tastings and events is spot on, and will save you a lot of money in the long run. There are many different styles of “great” wine, sometimes from the same region. But what is technically great (or subjectively in the eyes of the market) may not be to your taste. Plus, having some high-end reference points will help you navigate how your palate aligns with others, and what sort of experience you’re chasing.

If you really want to go wild with this, try the Grand Tasting or Verticals at 2023 Program - New York City — La Paulée next year when it will be in SF.

See if Wine Tasting Events - Wine & Food Festivals | LocalWineEvents.com is back in LA again next year.

These should broaden your palate and open your eyes.

[Randall_McFarlane]

Good advice, counselor!

[Brandon_J]

Bryan you’re going to have a lot of fun. I’m 30 and got into wine about 8 years ago and seriously got into wine about 3 years ago.

I won’t be saying much that hasn’t already been said but I’m going through exactly what you did.

For Buying

Find a wine shop employee or even nice grocery store employee who you trust and have similar palates with. I’m extremely fortunate to live a mile from a nice worldly grocery store with a guy who used to make wine for a great Oregon producer and his palate is very similar to mine. I have bought cases upon cases of wine from him totally blind and they’re always fantastic. I have not had a dud in years.

As others said, don’t be afraid to buy a few higher end wines $50+ but do it very slowly. Your palate will almost certainly change in the next 3-5 years. So if you’re spending money, stick to classics (old world), worst case you can trade them off later if your palate changes.

Exploring

If you have access to a good bottle shop, you don’t need to spend over $25 to drink really nice wine and learn a lot. I don’t know what your consumption will be, the misses and I have 5 bottles per week between the two of us so it’s easy to go explore the Rhone valley for a month and drink 15 or so rhone wines and learn a lot. It helps some to drink region and varietal specific wines close together so you don’t have issues with recalling why you liked or didn’t like a particular wine.

Wine Folly Book? Great GREAT piece of literature and she has a great website too.

Cellar Tracker and Delectable are two apps that are also a great resource.

Oh and the advice about not trying a good Burgundy? Very VERY sound advice, don’t go down that rabbit hole…

Lastly, my favorite wine regions for value and exploration are:

Northern Rhone
Jura
Alsace
Savoie

[J_Fontamillas]

One word… Mollydockers.
You’re welcome

[jhowe]

@dcornutt

@Paul Jaouen

I’m sure you’ll get a lot of responses. The first two tips that come to mind are 1) join or start a wine group. You can do different wine themes which will allow you to taste a lot more wine for less money than if you went out and bought all the wines. 2) Even if you are crazy about certain wines now like California pinot, do not go out and buy a ton as I guarantee your palate will change and the wines you like today may be the wines you dislike tomorrow.

Enjoy the ride.
You will have lots of fun.
There is no roadmap.
Treat it as an adventure and you won’t be disappointed.

I put in bold something that Paul said.
This is probably the best single piece of advice that I can think of at this point.

I agree with both Paul and Don. The problem is that you know what you like now but you really don’t know what you will like in a few years. I also agree with drinking wine with food and not just tasting alone. If you just taste a bunch of random wines you tend to gravitate towards the styles you already like. Organize some multi course meals with friends and pair with different wines. You’ll be surprised at the results. All of this is a long learning process that we’ve all been through. I’m not sure there are any shortcuts.

[Bryan_Price]

@Brandon J.

As others said, don’t be afraid to buy a few higher end wines $50+ but do it very slowly. Your palate will almost certainly change in the next 3-5 years. So if you’re spending money, stick to classics (old world), worst case you can trade them off later if your palate changes.

Am I just getting picky already or does it seem hard to find a pinot noir, chardonnay, or cab under $50 that I think is REALLY good?!!!