The wines are typically good and inexpensive. Add Spain to the list.
Add in building ownership typically not rent and family staff…
Plus the lower cost of wines.
Exactly. Why don’t restaurants offer a modest, reasonable, interesting (with maybe lots of local wines) on a list for most of the “regular” diners. less inventory, less risk for corkage, less storage etc. Then charge a corkage fee for those geeks who want to bring an exceptional bottle or two for dinner. Make the corkage fee high enough to deter the customers wanting to bring yellow tail in 1.5 Liter bottles to have cheap alcohol for dinner. In a good restaurant in a large city I have never blinked at a 30-35 buck corkage fee per bottle, or a buy one off list and get reduced or free corkage on your own wine.
Restaurant gets to sell wine, have a reasonable profit on BYOers with NO risk, and everyone is happy. What am I missing here? And charge what you need to for food to reflect the actual labor for prep. The cost shifting model that has been in place forever in the restaurant industry seems outdated.
I live in a state where liquor licenses are allocated by population in each town, and as a result, many if not most of the good restaurants are BYO with no corkage fee (since they do not own liquor licenses). This is one reason why we originally started buying and collecting wine - EVERYONE, not just geeks, brings wine to restaurants in NJ. Some of the really good BYO restaurants have excellent stemware, decanters, etc., but most have mediocre but serviceable glasses. So I have become spoiled, and except for the occasional dinner in NYC, I rarely even go to a restaurant with a wine list, as I choose to support the places that are BYO and bring something from my cellar. To those who insist good restaurants cannot survive without huge wine markups, come to NJ and I’ll show you that’s not true.
I have been spending the winter in a different state, where it’s the usual high markup, often on pedestrian wines, and BTG is an even bigger rip off (but usually my default). I shipped myself several cases of wine from home, but I am finding that it’s a hassle and sometimes not allowed or very expensive to bring a bottle to dinner, and as a result, I am spending more on wine in restaurants but drinking not nearly as well. Most of the time, I buy one glass of overpriced mediocre wine to drink with dinner, whereas if the list was priced reasonably, I would buy a bottle. I can’t stand it, and every time I open one of those crappy overpriced lists, I appreciate even more how fortunate I am to spend most of my time in a place where I can BYO (for free) every night I go out.
It’s funny…but then it’s not. One of my favorite restaurants in Portland, ME used to be so small that they couldn’t have a liquor license. Their prices were high, but they had $0 corkage policy. They were expensive as far as food was concerned (I think I usually spent about $100 on myself) but it was easy to go there because the food was worth the opportunity to drink amazing wine with amazing food; I could justify the price. I think I went there about every 3-4 months. Then they moved out of those small walls and into the busier “Old Port” with enough space to meet all the requirements for a liquor license. With the wine list being “ok” and the prices of wine no longer being a deal…I’ve gone there once in 5 years. Are they successful, I think so. Did they lose business…they lost mine. So many people missed the old location that they briefly tried a spin-off at the old location…but it wasn’t the same. I went once…and it was ok…it’s tough when there are changes we don’t agree with…but the owner has to live with their answers. My guess is they’re far more profitable in a larger space where they now capture all alcohol sales with their food. Still…it’s a shame their wine list is so meh.
It is illegal to BYOW in Colorado so we choose restaurants based many times on wine lists alone. If you have good, reasonably priced wines, we’ll probably visit, if not, we go elsewhere.
Local spot has done a Phoenix and risen up with $7.50 corkage. Got big bowl glasses with designs on the side, they’re clean. New favorite spot.
08 Drinkward Peschon last night with four cheese Mac n Cheese with good local bacon, and lots of it, for $3 extra. Whole bill for three with appetizer and dessert was under a hundo, with tip.
No chance I ever dine in the 300-400% wine mark-up joints, there are other ways to spend money and other places to eat. CO, and other states that disallow BYOW, are dead to me.
As others have pointed out, the BYO are a tiny percentage of the restaurant market. I also realize we have a very different POV than the average diner; we know the market, the cost of most wines on the list, and in almost every case, even with corkage, we can bring a better wine, and have a more satisfying experience than we could had we ordered from that list.
This is a major gift that the restaurant allows us, and we should enjoy it quietly and realize the privilege it is, and act and pay accordingly. Lately even when I am offered free corkage, I insist on paying something as I have found it makes for a better experience for all concerned.
I think for the most part, it also disqualifies us from really discussing wine pricing; I know that as an insider they cannot possibly compete with what I can bring. After all I am bringing a couple of bottles that I know and love, and that I have cellared for years; they are trying to put together a list which will please as large a group of diners as possible, doing it on a budget, and rarely do they have access or the know how to get older wines from the secondary market, which are the kind of wines I like to drink. And of course they have this strange need to make a profit to stay in business.
Yes of course there are restaurants with terrible lists. Generally the food is probably less good than the restaurants who care enough to put a good list together. There are exceptions; Peter Luger may have the best steaks I have ever had, but they also have one of the poorest overpriced lists I have seen in a top steak house. And absolutely no BYO. Of course I will still go back and eat there, but I drink beer or water. Their loss. I can’t imagine what it would be like to live in states like Colorado and have no BYO whatsoever. We are looking for places to retire, that literally took it off my list (it probably would have been pretty low anyway, but that is non-negotiable).
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Ha! Can’t BYO but you can buy some hash oil on the way home from the restaurant. Crazy world
So what’s the typical restaurant markup on beer and spirits? I’m sure it’s high, but would be curious as to how it compares to wine. With beer, you still have cold storage, glassware, service and other related activities (e.g. cleaning out the kegarotor). Spirits I assume would be less, but you have all of the accoutrements that come with making a mixed drink.
Much higher, don’t get started on fountain drinks.
This is why focusing on markups by percentage instead of actual increased cost is stupid. If a restaurant sells a soft drink it buys for a quarter for 2000% of cost instead of 1000% of cost, the cost difference to the consumer is $2.50. If a restaurant sells a bottle of wine that retails for $20 for 300% of retail, it costs the consumer an additional $40 to buy from the restaurant. If the restaurant sells a bottle that retails for $150 for 200% of retail, it costs the consumer an additional $150 to buy the bottle from the restaurant.
From a consumer perspective, I care a lot more about the number of dollars by which I’m being overcharged than the percentage by which I’m being overcharged. From a business perspective, total dollars of profit matters much more than margin but many restaurants seem fixated on margin over profit when it comes to their wine programs.
Wine is different from almost everything else in a restaurant in that it (1) is sold by the restaurant straight from the package in exactly the same form as it is sold anywhere else and (2) typically costs the consumer significantly more than any other item on a per item ordered basis.
Nice to hear something positive about NJ these days. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Yes, and in the city I live a very good Italian Restaurant (again) has way less mark ups on the wine than the other ones. Needless to say that this restaurant is full every day.
we’re working on that. 
No kidding. I have been known to say that BYO is BY FAR the best reason to live there! (But notice I headed south for warmer climes for the winter.)
Mike, I completely agree with the first part of the paragraph above. It used to drive me crazy that the Margin was all any upper management person wanted to see. The best margin in a wine program is by the glass, however the best total dollars(and best consumer experience) are in the best wines on the bottle list.
Your second quote is correct, except that wine also ties up more money in inventory than any other revenue stream by a large margin on a good list. Plus it has the highest rate of issue(cork taint, etc.) and variability, as compared to coffee, beer, cocktails. It also should be noted that liquor, beer, and wine service in Oregon requires a hefty liability policy while food, coffee, and soda do not.
That said, I would not price top end wines by the same margin as the more modest offerings on a wine list(unless I was allowed a significantly more modest cost than the typical restaurant runs)
We are looking for places to retire. . .
Mark, the answer is clear.
NEW JERSEY!
Hoboken baby. Only way to go.
Being a veteran of the restaurant industry for over 20 years I hesitate to enter in these conversations as most people have never dealt with real numbers running a restaurant, but one perspective I will add is this…
What do all of you do for a living?
It seems easy to pick apart a restaurant for their huge mark ups or how they abuse customers, but what is it that you do to earn a dollar?
Are you a doctor? Lawyer? Architect? How much do you charge and why?
It seems that there is a common thread to rip on service industry people for their vocation, but when it comes to ‘normal’ jobs it’s just accepted that the public should pay for the going rate in each of your professions.
I may present a completely contrarian point of view but it is extremely disrespectful to say that a 400% mark up on wine is unexceptable when you are a doctor and have a 1000%+ mark up on what you do.
It’s easy to look down on service people as simply cogs that fill a hole, but it is actually a very honed skill set to run a 10 million dollar restaurant.
Many here are top wage earners, what justifies your salary? Is it years of school?
Years of honing your craft? Do you not think service industry people do this as well?
I’m not trying to start a fight (many here already have) but by diminishing the value of the restaurants you patronage, you are dimishing the people that service you…
I’ve worked 80+ hours a week for years on end to get to the point of making $100k+ a year sacrificing knees, back and inevitably my heart (and liver) to service people dropping several hundreds (and thousands) of dollars when they go out. It’s a 2 way street, when your at work commenting on this board making really good money while bitching about corkage, think of the 15 people making $12 an hour to make that experience happen…
No they didn’t go to college, but I guarantee they work as hard as you and sacrifice just as much.
Sorry, end of rant