When I say they’re not relevant, I mean, quite clearly, that they don’t by and large buy the wines we care about. I’m not saying you should serve them an off vintage Chinon, etc and I have zero idea how you’d get that from what I said.
I think we need to define terms here - when people invoke the “average wine consumer” I assume they’re talking about people who spend ~$10 on mass market wines to drink within a day to a week. These people don’t cellar things and aren’t ‘into’ wine in any way. It’s something to drink either alone or with food for them. This is perfectly fine, but they’re not concerned with the sort of wine we drink and the producers we’re talking about don’t sell to this segment. Hence, not relevant.
A step up from this are the people who might buy a ‘nice buttery Chard’ ala Rombauer etc. This group, to me, is much like the first just with more money. They’ll buy St Francis, Clos du Bois, etc. They like good wine but it’s not really a focus for them either - they’re willing to spend a bit more to get something nice, but they’re not really who we’re talking about either.
Next are the people who DO buy some of the wines we like - the people who drove a lot of the mailing list activity of the last 15 years, who might have watched and been influence by Sideways, etc. They’re us, minus the geek/wine board factor. If THIS is what you guys meant by the average consumer, I don’t disagree with you.
The only reason I’m pushing this a bit is that whenever we talk about things like oak in wine or other winemaking trends someone always says we have to consider the magical ‘average wine consumer’… and I don’t think we do when we’re talking about collectible/high end/serious wines IF what we mean by that are the people who buy $10 mass market wines.
Well explained, Rick. What I was getting at is that the opinions of the wine drinking public at large – and everything I’ve ever observed is that they overwhelmingly prefer wines with ripe fruit and medium to higher levels of oak – do affect me when it comes to hosting people, choosing wine off the restaurant list, giving gifts, etc.
For example, if I’m hosting a bunch of relatives and family friends for a holiday dinner, I’m much more likely to serve a Sea Smoke pinot than red Burgundy, or a Kistler chardonnay than a Chablis, or a Larkmead cabernet instead of a Mayacamas, or a Monbousquet rather than a . . . you get the picture. Most people appreciate good wines much more in the former style, and it’s part of the reason I purchase some portion of my good wines in that style (though not the only reason – I like good wines made in all styles, for different moods, weather, times of day, food, company, etc.).
Well, Ponsot uses used oak and mostly for a considerable amount of time. The family has even historically prematurely aged barrels that are too new. I think this shows in the wines, especially when young, when in a fine vintage, and a small vintage, and when blessedly they get everything else right, the wines can show some amazing complexity unmarred by the sensation of oak. I’m thinking mainly of their Clos de la Roche and would cite the 1990 as a prime example. 1991 similar. But both bespeak the utility of used oak to preserve the fruit and complexity of the Pinot Noir.
Funny thread, Alan - thanks for starting! Ironically, earlier today I was praising Bdx on another thread for being able to carry off “modern” . . . and tonight I am sucking on a stick of fermented oak in a 2005 Ch. d’Aiguihle. Started off decently and then just plunged into something I could not longer palate . . . . Ugh, perhaps one of the grosser uses of oak I have seen in a Bdx.
Edit: Just checked CT. A 90.7 rating average. Wow, Ct users consistent with RMP on this one. Quite a high CT rating.
Tech sheet on the wine:
Harvest : By hand, into small crates to avoid bruising Sorted before and after destemming No crushing. The grapes are put into vats by gravity flow
Winemaking : In temperature-controlled wooden vats for 25-30 days depending on the vintage Extraction par pneumatic pigeage (punching down the cap)
Malolactic fermentation and barrrel ageing : In new oak barrels (up to 80%) on the lees Fining and filtering as necessary, depending on the vintage
I’m sure the % of new oak has increased a bit, as has the ‘size’ of the barrels/toast profile, but a lot of the trashiness of a lot of wines goes with ripeness of fruit and insufficient fruit/wine quality, i.e. if you put a lot of toasty oak on a wine with some serious density, tannin and angularity (not totally green, but walking that line) the oak will often combine with the tannin and the two will marry over time to produce a very nice wine; if you put a lot of oak on a very ripe wine (farmed at 3 tpa from a six year old irrigated, loamy vineyard in a coastal valley) with soft tannins, you get that sweet, fruity (and short-lived) profile that gives Cali wine a bad name. Fact of the matter is the easiest wine for anybody to make is to buy fruit from a known vineyard for a lot of money, get it real ripe, put a lot of expensive oak on it that everybody else uses, and wrap it up in a big price tag. Not real exciting or special. Problem is, that’s often what sells.
Kind of matches my hypothesis on oak as well. Less ripe grapes probably really need a little something extra to balance them out. I’ve heard Cab described as the classic ‘donut hole’ mid-palate grape, which oak can help fill. But if the grapes are ripe and round, then there’s no hole to fix. The wine would just get richer. Plus I also suspect higher alcohol wines extract more from the oak, though there are many variables that factor into this.
There are containers that offer oxygen permeability and aren’t made out of wood. I might they are (or were) widely used by producers who don’t care about points.
What kind of materials are used? I’ve heard of concrete tanks, but I’m not sure how oxygen permeable those are. I suppose it would also be possible to use micro-ox in a tank, though that seems like a technological solution to a problem that could be circumvented. Plus, if someone is micro-oxing in tank, then he’s probably also throwing oak chips in to spoof it up!
At one time Marlene Soria was making some pretty nice no-oak mostly Syrah wines at her Domaine Peyre Rose, in the Languedoc. Haven’t tried them in a while, though – prices went up, distribution became spotty, etc.
I think in some more recent vintages she’s used foudres for a minor percentage of the wine.
I was indeed thinking of concrete. Not sure either abuot permeability but some people are definitely making good wine out of concrete tanks. All the old houses here in Languedoc have a concrete tank (or two) in the cellar. Since they are hard to dispose of most new owners cut a door in them and use them as a wine cellar or small room.
Yeah, my feelings exactly on this wine. I see it hasn’t improved since the last time I had it, about two years ago now. As I said I really like the 03 and 00. The 05, which Uncle Bob said was far better has until now turned out to be a horror show. It seems to me not only did Bob blow the call on this one but more importantly the winemaker screwed big time. Any chance it’ll improve? Hope so, I’ve got two more taking up space in my cellar.
I agree- There are a ton of wines like Silver Oak and Darioush that do a fine brisk business of selling highly oaked wines to the affluent label conscious folks out there.
This is a good point. I think some of the techniques (in this case, extended aging in new oak) became traditional because they were necessary or appropriate for old world sites and earlier times and styles, but when applied to riper grapes from different climates and soils using newer technologies and so forth, they are essentially solving a problem that doesn’t exist in the first place, and then they swing the pendulum too far in the other direction.
Using an oak regimen that makes sense for lean, acidic white Burgundy on very ripe chardonnay from the valley floor of Napa, it can become a mismatch. The latter could still make a nice wine in its own right, but it probably shouldn’t use the same regimen as is optimal for the white Burgundy.
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I think I’ve expressed my thoughts earlier in this thread, so I’ll leave it at that.![[pillow-fight.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/3/365d4ae6de5fe0cd9e7345760c12ceae1ed5e206.gif "[pillow-fight.gif]")