Hi Brad,
A fantastic reply… ![[worship.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/9/99a8907a1d5b3c023582052741dc72dc9823c044.gif "worship"){kind=small}
Exactly what I was trying to understand. Thanks very much!!
I’ve a bottle of 1980 Dom Rose I bought for my wife’s birthday (a birth year champagne).
It is in a few weeks, so we are planning on cracking it then. Anyone had any experience or notes on this wine??
Will it be past it, or is there a chance (I hope) it is still ok, or maybe even very good???
BTW, had another NV Vilmart Rubis, great little Champagne…It’s going to be hard to keep my hands of the remaining 10 bottles…
Paul,
The 1980 Dom P Rose is a very good wine and a nice effort for the 1980 vintage, but not a great example of what Dom P Rose can be in my book. It is a little lighter than normal and doesn’t pack the intensity and/or complexity I normally look for in this wine (or any wine at this price point). As far as drinking window, it is enjoyable right now and opens up with air time. Expect to enjoy the bottle, but don’t expect to be blown away. To me, it really doesn’t offer much more quality than most releases of the NV Vilmart Rubis that you mention liking and in some years the NV Vilmart Rubis is superior in my book. Keep in mind that this only applies to the 1980 vintage of the Dom P Rose and 1980 was a weaker Champagne vintage (for a 1980 this is a good choice).
Like any Champagne, Roses change their flavor profile over time, but they can age well. Dom P Rose can be mesmerizing with age as long as you aren’t looking for fresh, fruity flavors.
Thanks very much again Brad.
Yeah,
I expect it will be very different, having had a few older champagnes (and a couple of '80 Dom’s before), I hope I understand them a little bit, so really looking to see the different angles of complexity and the secondary characters of an mature, older rose champagne, even if it’s not the greatest example…
And, if it’s not that great after all, then there is always another Vilmart…
If one wanted to buy a bunch of vintage rose champagne with the aim of extended aging, what’s the best bet? I love Bollinger, but Brad’s opinion seems to be that Bollinger has vastly improved within the past 15 years so that there is really no extended track record of aging. However the Bollinger roses are certainly a hell of a lot more affordable than, say, DP rose.
Contrary to popular belief, most vintage rose champagne suits extended ageing and in deed demands it. I don’t buy a lot at the top level (DP, Cristal etc) because they’re outrageosly expensive, but most of them develop beautifully with time.
Top of my list: Veuve Clicquot (no joke…), Paul Bara Special Club, Vilmart Grand Cellier Rubis
Runner up: Roederer, Pol Roger, Roses de Jeanne (not really “affordable” though)
I generally do not recommend buying grower rose champagnes. They’re usually either even more of an afterthought than the NV roses from major houses. And if they’re not a run of the mill afterthought, they may be crazy experimental styles (Leclapart, Vouette & sorbee, Larmandier Bernier).
Out of the mature rose champagnes I’ve had, I’d say Dom Perignon, Dom Ruinart, Cristal and Veuve Clicquot are the most ageworthy. If you want to check out mature rose champagne, the currently available Vve Clicquot Cave Privee 1989 is a good start.
If you’re buying to cellar, Clicquot 2004 and Pol Roger 2002 offer the best value QPR.
Nick,
I’ll try to elaborate a bit on my Bollinger Grande Annee Rose comment. I was never really a Bollinger Grande Annee Rose fan prior to the 1996 vintage. The wine always seemed disjointed with oak and spice overpowering the fruit. Toss in some sherry and acidity and it just never really did it for me whether young or old. Yes, a few vintages were nice enough, but not worth the money. Starting in 1996, the wine seemed to get a bit more fruit driven and balanced. Each vintage since 1996 has seen the wine get better and better. It is still full bodied, but it is no longer disjointed and has a wonderful purity and power to it. I don’t see there being a problem aging any the wine, but with a perceived style change occurring so recently, any comments as to aging really would be a best guess. Personally, I see no issue aging the 2002 Grande Annee for a couple decades, but I think I will like it best over the next ten years or so. It is just so darn good right now.
DP Rose can age and age and turns into a beauty. Is it worth the premium to the Bollinger GA Rose? Only you can decide. I love them both and purchase both, but when you can buy 2-3 Bollinger GA Roses for the price of 1 DP Rose, it can weight your cellar in a certain way.
I agree with Frank that most Roses age beautifully especially the vintage versions. What Roses age the best? It really depends on the style you are after, but my favorite cellar worthy examples are (in no particular order):
- Cristal Rose
- Dom Perignon Rose
- Grande Dame Rose
- Dom Ruinart Rose
- Comtes de Champagne Rose
- Vilmart Grand Cellier d’Rubis
- Billecart-Salmon Elisabeth Rose
- Cuvee William Deutz Rose
- A number of more basic millesime Roses from Veuve Clicquot, Roederer, Deutz, Pol Roger, Charles Heidsieck, Philipponnat “1522”, etc…
Grower Roses are a bit more challenging not because the quality isn’t there, but because not that many have made a vintaged Rose for a long enough period of time where you can gain a clear understanding of where the wine is going. There are brilliant efforts out there and a number of terrific NV Roses, but for cellaring, the above have a long track record or have shown enough that I believe in them. Just remember that some Roses will be better at the mid-term (12-25 years) and some will be better at the 20+ year mark.
In the future, I think there will be a lot more top notch grower/small producer Roses to recommend they just need more of a track record than a few vintages. Also, I think more vintaged/high end versions will be made.
For recent vintages, I really liked Pinot Noir and Rose Champagne in 2002 and 1998. 2008 shows a lot of promise too, but you will have to wait a while for the best of these. 1996 is also good to look for, but the wines are now harder to find.
(Yes, I bring this one from down the archives).
I’d add my 2c to the discussion, I personally really like the Pierre Paillard NV Rosé (and I always use it as my ref. point for NV one).
For vintage Rosé, it’s much harder. I think I’d need to try few of the ones listed above that I did not have a chance to taste yet. (The most recent vintage one I tried was '07 Deutz Brut Rosé Millésimé. It was very enjoyable, but I had both ones that were better and ones that were below in vintage rosé)
I am a big fan of both the Taittinger Comtes and the Billecart-Salmon Cuvee E on top of the DP. However, the best rose Champagne I have ever had must be a 1985 Veuve Clicquot Serie Rare
I’ve tasted much less widely than many on this thread but here’s what I buy.
For non-vintage I love Andre Beaufort, Pierre Peters (first release - the second was disappointing) and Vouette et Sorbee.
For vintage my favorite is probably Vilmart Rubis (I’m not a huge fan of their NV). I always like Comte de Champagne but I also always prefer the less expensive Blanc de Blancs so I never buy the rose. I’ve had one vintage Beaufort which was so so on its own but glorious with food. However that was the 2003 so I don’t know how atypical it might have been.
An outlier but sub $60 - NV Chartogne-Taillet Champagne Brut Rosé. These have consistently improved with cellar time.
Vintage - Taittinger Champagne Comtes de Champagne Rosé Brut - Our 02s are quite the Champagnes.
Best rosés I’ve had in no particular order:
Cedric Bouchard Creux d’Enfer
Vouette et Sorbee Saignee de Sorbee
David Leclapart L’Alchimiste
Jean-Baptiste Geoffroy Blanc de Rose (co-macerated chardonnay and pinot noir)
Chartogne-Taillet Le Rose
Georges Laval
Selosse
Haven’t been impressed by Krug or Dom Rosé, and a recent Bollinger rosé had at altitude was very ordinary.
Just bought some '02 Dom Rose, didn’t even know it had been released yet!
Anyone had one or have any notes?
If it’s anywhere like the quality of the Dom '02 vintage (and it may well be even better), then it will be pretty darn good…
2002 DP Rose is stunning - a star of the vintage and a good step up from the Blanc. The 2003 DP Rose is also out although I like the white DP better in that vintage.
This. To me, this is a remarkably consistent wine of great elegance.
(I also didn’t quite get the ‘fruit-driven’ categorisation. Probably a function of how one perceives ‘fruity’, but mine weren’t, and I’ve had quite a lot of these over the years.)
Morlet in Avenay also makes a fantastic rose’ for my money.
Thanks Brad,
Guess I might have to pop one then…
Though not a cuvee with a long track record, the releases of NV Pierre Peters Rose have been fantastic so far.
Nothing fancy, but the N/V Billecart-Salmon seems like a good starting point if you like a yeastier, fuller style which can be found in most wine stores, and though I’ve only had it once, the Selosse Rose is excellent.
You could also add a category for elegant Rose Champagne. I didn’t take it that far, but that would pull in wines like Rene Geoffroy’s Blanc de Rose, Pierre Peters’ Rose for Albane, Margaine’s Rose, etc… and probably also include Billecart’s Elisabeth Rose and Deutz’s Cuvee William Rose
I still don’t think I would put Camille Saves in the elegant category as I think it is a fruit driven wine that is mineral leaning, but I will say that it is nowhere near as fruit driven as a Billiot or Geoffroy Rose de Saignee. Just my thoughts as what is fruity to one is elegant to another. What I don’t think is up for disagreement is that Saves’ Rose rocks.
Laherte Frères “Les Beaudiers” - a 100% Pinot Meunier Extra-Brut NV Rosé always blows my mind - one of my personal faves…