What do you mean by that, Alan? Was 2020 a very hot and dry vintage? (that’s what I seem to recall, but am not confident about it …)
Yes, pretty much everywhere a across France.
Just to make sure we’re on the same page, Julian, you’re talking about the Coudraies (yes, the very wine you explicitly identified), and not the “Closiers” bottling, correct? I rated the 2020 “Closiers” out to 85 — really wasn’t impressed. I rated the “Coudraies” out to 90, but felt it was difficult. I’ll repost my TN here, for easy reference. Also, FYI: my closing line means I felt it drank in the 85-88 territory. My “very good” = 87 - 89, and my “good” = 84 - 86. Therefore, if I bothered to say “good-to-very good”, then I feel I should chop-off one number from the opposing ends of the range that statement creates.
– decanted 1.5 hrs. before initial taste –
– tasted non-blind over a couple hrs. on Day 1; revisited on Day 6 –
NOSE: purple-fruited; a touch stony; tight; had a light-to-medium cheap wine/froo-froo smell upon uncorking, but this was gone after 1.5 hrs in the decanter; no pyrazine. Day 6: deeply-embedded pyrazine; very tight.
BODY: violet color of great depth; medium to medium-full bodied.
TASTE: impressive depth; reserved; purple-fruited; some medium-fine grippy tannins; little bit of oak; dark soil; medium+ acidity; alc. is well-hidden; hint of liverwurst; no noticeable pyrazines. Day 6: completely closed. I have the sense this could be truly excellent with 5 to 10 more years of age on it; as it drinks today, however, it resides in “good to very good” territory. Best to Hold.
50, 5, 11, 16, 8 = 90+
Been meaning to post a few recent bottles:
2021 Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur Clos Romans - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Saumur (4/25/2025)
A fair bit of medium honey color, and a bruised apple nose is not a good sign. This is my first time with this wine in any vintage, so going blind, but it is pretty clearly moderately oxidized, and not what I look for in great Chenin. Maybe just this bottle, maybe something about this vintage, but not a good start. I can sense a good base of flavor, excellent acidity, even some minerality, but the dominant character is apple juice. NR.
2021 Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur-Champigny Clos de L'Echelier - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Saumur-Champigny (4/2/2025)
Fairly dark, not quite opaque, classic cooler vintage cab franc nose, lightly green with some nice spiced herbs; there’s more fruit and density here than the Franc de Pied I had a week ago, but they are cousins for sure. Not quite as lean or austere, but definitely reserved, with a bit of tartness. Enjoyable for someone who likes old style classic Franc, and I’m really not sure how this will develop with some years in bottle.
Night 2: Not much change. If anything, seems more lean and austere. Is it possible that a decade from now this will blossom into a wonderful wine? I think that's possible. Have another bottle I'll stash away for a long time to see. Unfortunately, I wasn't drinking Loire wines when some of the very delicious older bottles I've had were young. (88 points)
2021 Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur-Champigny Franc de Pied - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Saumur-Champigny (3/25/2025)
Medium body, dark see-through garnet, just a hint of cab franc green on the nose, taut, sinewy, a bit lean on the palate, acidity seems a bit high, but that could just be a lack of depth and intensity, very fine tannic structure, finishing with a slight hint of tartness. Was looking forward to trying this, but frankly am underwhelmed. One bottle to put away, maybe it will surprise me in a decade, but not going back to stock up.
Day 2: bit more green on the nose now; palate might be even more lean and austere 24 hours later, underripe, frankly not enjoyable. (83 points)
2019 Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur-Champigny Clos de L'Echelier - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Saumur-Champigny (3/21/2025)
Quite dark, not quite opaque, beautiful nose, more dried brown leaves in this vintage than green pyrazine of a cooler vintage, some lovely savory spice notes; darker fruit, with a brighter, slightly acidic streak riding on the surface, nice complexity, subtle spice notes, moderate grippy tannins. Drinkable now, better in a decade.
Night 2: more integrated, the acidic is better balanced, everything in place, quite a nice young cab franc. (91 points)
Posted previously, but including with this group
2021 Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur-Champigny Terres Chaudes - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Saumur-Champigny (2/6/2025)
Fairly dark garnet, all kinds of lovely earthy, leafy, green notes on the nose, classic cooler vintage loire cab franc, palate follows, with classically framed darker fruit, reserved and restrained, some lovely pyrazine bite, lightly chalky tannins, this is drinkable now with food, but will be better in a decade or more. Very nice mid-week bottle.
Day two: nose is more on the dusty side, still with that mix of leaf pile and green veg, palate is a touch softer now, not quite the pyrazine presence, actually fairly easy to drink. (90 points)
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Ehhhh … seems like a rough ride, with the occasional scenic overlook. Thanks, Alan.
Wow, bummer. I’ve had excellent experiences with their FdP, but most recently the '17 and 19. The other cuvees have been more of a mixed bag for me.
Nice note Alan and consistent with my experience across a couple vintages. Really frustrating considering the price. I’ve found his whites so lackluster that I now pass on my allocation (I’ve never found the others oxidises but I find I vastly prefer the reds).
Do you have more experience with the whites? I opened the same wine from 2019 last night, and while not quite as obvious, it is clearly somewhat oxidized.
I’m really curious if this is the style, or a common problem, particularly as I have gone through several of the reds from 2021, and they have mostly been lackluster, austere, frankly not very enjoyable. These all came from the same source, and I wonder if there was some problem in shipment or storage at some point, or this is just what the domaine produced.
I bought across the board in 21 so these notes are pretty worrying! I’ll speak to the importer and get his take. I know him well enough that if there’s a pox issue he’ll reimburse.
My bottle of 2020 FdP was mousey. I assume we’re “having fun” in the world of Natural Wines with these ones, and further assume that explains your oxidized whites.
Thought you guys might like this.
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Who imports the bottles you have?
I’ve only had the Insolite, which I thought was very good. Even though the Romans comes from young vines & has a shorter elevage, still not a good sign to hear it’s dead/dying at such a young age
In the UK, it’s AB Vintner.
I haven’t had any other bottlings that tasted oxidized, but some that just felt flat/tired/headed towards oxidized. It’s primarily why I walked away from the whites.
FWIW, in late 2022 I preordered their complete range, red and white, so mostly 2021s, one of each. Those were drank over the following year or two, with no issues whatsoever, and fond memories of particularly Les Memoires and the whites.
Can it be that something went wrong with your batch?
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A 2014 Roches Neuves Clos Romans that I opened a few weeks ago was great. Simultaneously rich and brisk with years of development ahead of it. The color looked good to me; here’s a pic.
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@Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m Yes absolutely, the Coudraies - I haven’t tried the other yet.
Yes, this matches my own multiple experiences with Roches Neuves Clos Romans 14 and 17. But I think we were just unlucky, seeing Joe’s post. It may be low sulphur levels? I had an identical experience with Domaine du Collier 17 last weekend. Anyway, I’ve given up with RN whites for now.
As for Roches Neuves reds, I’ve never ever had a bad bottle, and I go through a lot! The only 2021 I have tried so far is the entry-level domain wine, which I really enjoyed. I’m a big fan of 2021 in general, which reminds me strongly of 2014.
Talking of 2014, the chat about Chevalerie prompted me to open a Breteche 2014: delicious stuff, far better than a rather disappointing bottle opened two years ago, just lovely red fruits and the fresh, crispness that characterizes 14s.
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That’s what I’m wondering as well. I’ve enjoyed a number of other 21 Loire wines from other producers.
So many of these low intervention/low sulfur/natural wines do not make the trans-Atlantic journey well ----maybe that’s a factor here. (?)