Interesting disjunction, Julian. Am I remembering right that there was a generational transition in the winemaking sometime in between the two vintages?
To add to the timeline, I opened a magnum of the 09 Clos de l’Echo over the summer. It was neither epiphanous nor horrendous. Just a pleasant bottle of Chinon that made relatively little impression.
Absolutely, Elliot - anything before 2003 is likely to be good, anything after could be either good or awful! I’ve yet to try a 2009.
For those interested in exploring a lesser-known producer, VDLT is doing a Zoom tasting with Domaine Nau Frères on Saturday, November 28th at 3pm ET. Two of their Bourgueils (Les Varennes & Vieilles Vignes) from 2014 will be featured.
I recently tasted the 2014 VV with 3 other experienced wine friends. It was paired with the Olga Raffault Chinon Les Picasses (a wine I happily drink and cellar) from the same vintage. It was blind for me and double-blind for the others. The wines were decanted for an hour and then tasted over several hours. Both are young (probably too young) but they were jockeying back-and-forth as to which was preferred by each taster. I try to avoid posting qualitatively about any of the wines I offer, so apologies if this crosses lines of propriety. I mention it only as a means of providing some perspective on a producer I mentioned previously in this thread but most readers will be unfamiliar with.
Recent bottles of Baudry Grezeaux and Guillot from 2009 and 2010 have shaken up my appreciation of the potential of good Loire CF, which I now rank among the best reds in my ‘cellar.’ Personally, I find little to compare between them and Bordeaux wines, they are a different animal altogether - somewhere between Bordeaux and Burgundy, perhaps, with some of the “sinister, sombre bite” of the former, and some of the flavor pallet of the latter. They utterly sparkle with food, even when young and ‘green,’ but I’m only coming to really love them now that I’ve tasted them at age 10-11.
I took a small leap of faith stocking Baudry eight years ago and holding them this long - partly on the strength of Nathan’s durable advocacy of their quality - but these wines are now a permanent featured of my long-term cellar. Not to mention, except for Rougeard, there’s no universe in which Bordeaux pricing compares favorably.
For those interested, connection info for this tasting posted here:
Our participating members often ask what snacks or food they should have with the featured wines. While doing the prep for this event with Abel Osorio (a Nau Frères as a result of marrying a Nau Soeurs), he made some expected suggestions like goat cheese. But then surprised me by saying that with the more structured and tannic VV, he likes dark chocolate?! Never considered or tried it, but I will! Anyone heard of or experienced this?
An 09 Grezeaux a few months ago was one of the most enjoyable bottles I’ve opened all year. All the hallmark aromatics and flavors of Loire cab franc, while also super-focused and energetic. It really blew me away. Haven’t tried the Guillot since release, but putting it on my to do list before year’s end.
The Loire never surprises me anymore - good luck with the Zoom tasting, sounds like a blast!
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2018 Baudry Grezeaux - is green pepper notes (pyrazine) a feature of most Loire Cabernet Franc’s? I don’t recall the strong bell pepper notes in a Chimney Rock CF - perhaps the difference between new and old world. Does the green pepper note dissipate with years of cellaring? I feel like I have had Carignan with similar notes of a strong twist at the end of the palate.
Pyrazines, mainly in the form of bell pepper ranging from crunchy green bell peppers to sweet, roasted bell pepper, is definitely the hallmark feature of old world Cabernet Franc - especially one from Loire. Only if left to become too ripe / overripe, CF tends to lose the herbaceous notes. For example some 2015 Cabernet Francs from Loire have not shown any green pyrazine character, suddenly making some wines have a somewhat new world quality - as normally producers in new world aim to levels of ripeness where CF retains no pyrazines whatsoever. Normally these green qualities do not disappear with age - I’ve had +30 yo Cab Francs that still have been herbaceous.
Can’t remember having a similarly green Carignan, though. Unlike CF, that can retain quite high levels of pyrazines in grapes that are otherwise completely ripe, Carignan isn’t known to have particularly high levels of pyrazines. So if you have a Carignan showing bell pepper notes, that might be just underripe fruit.
Adding to Otto’s comment. I’ve almost always found the bell pepper note in Chinons, also going back 30+ years. It’s one thing that makes the wines so polar. Some people can’t stand that note - I love it though.
And while I get it on almost every Chinon it’s quite hit or miss on new world (particularly California) wines, presumably for the ripeness reasons that Otto cites.
If my Cab Franc isn’t at least a touch herbaceous then I’m usually less than thrilled. It just comes off like a wanna-be Cab S. It’s the reason I’ve almost never been impressed by Cab Franc from California. It’s never distinctive.
Domaine des Roches Neuves is an estate which I regularly drink and where the green notes are more limited (note: I am drinking 15 and 16). It’s a highly regarded estate, that’s also mentioned in this thread, so you may want to look into that to confirm whether to your tastes, there are less green pepper notes.
Thanks all for the comments everyone really helpful. Now, I know why the wine buyer keep mentioning that I should try it before I cellar it. Maybe the carignane wasn’t pyrazine, it did have a overwhelming twist at the end that was bitter. (2018 Vinca minor Mendocino). Thanks for the tip on one to try and vintages.
On the Carignan that sort of bitter finish was likely something like stem inclusion or just something not quite ripe enough. Hard to say from a distance and one note. Sometimes those things can make the tannin green and astringent feeling.
Thanks Cris.
Had a a really good bottle of 2009 Domaine de la Butte Bourgueil Mi-Pente tonight:
“Effusive” is an apt term for the nose, which shows lots of ballpoint ink and currant, with some barnyard in the background and maybe a faint hint of wood char. The palate exhibits plenty of juicy red and black berry fruit that still retains lots of freshness, along with some typically herbal notes. There’s an interesting disjunction between the mouthfeel, which is quite elegant (and which would compare favorably with plenty of classified Bordeaux), and the aromatics, which are on the wild side. I like it very much, and am happy to have more. I also think it provides evidence in favor of the vintage, which seems to be evolving beautifully.
Even though the domaine is young, I think Jacky Blot deserves a pretty choice spot in the classification.
Is that in general or more vintage specific like '15 and '16 you noted?
Elliot - thanks for the note - I haven’t tried any of mine yet - sounds excellent. I agree that Jacky Blot deserves to go up a rung, maybe two. His wines are not necessarily for Loire purists but they are really good.
Mike - I would say that Roches-Neuves is definitely less green in any vintage. I had this one earlier in the week:
2015 Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur-Champigny Terres Chaudes
Interesting aromas of black cherry, raspberries, a little tar and something like dried autumn leaves. The attack was fresh and crunchy, tongue tingling, but not the red fruits I was expecting - this one was all about crunchy black fruit, so blackberry, blackcurrant, black cherry, then it veers off into a fun middle section with lots of little tastes of raspberry, candy, even a hint of sherbet, coming back down to earth with a decent finish of black fruit again. Not a hint of green.
I had never tried a Terres Chaudes before so it was especially interesting. It was a fun wine, really enjoyable, smile-on-your-face stuff. Ripe, but not overripe, it didn’t have the stuffing for long ageing, but it’ll still be great over the next few years. At 16€, very good value.
Mike, I defer to Julian on this (see above) who is much more knowledgeable than me 
. But it corresponds with my impressions: overall more red fruited than some other estates mentioned here. But it’s still cabernet franc, not pinot noir of course.