A 2017 Observation About 1980s Vintage Bordeaux

[Marc_Frontario]

@Neal.Mollen

I don’t know what evidence one might cite for the belief that the wines of the last 15 0r 20 years won’t be terrific when they are this age. They might all fall apart, but what evidence we currently have suggests otherwise.

The lesson I have learned from the wines of the 80s is that “off” vintages are capable of producing long-lived and deeply pleasurable drinking. The 82s and 89s, sure, but the 83s and 85s too.

I wonder if this will be a pleasurable fate for '01&'04?

[Jeff_Leve]

@Robert Alfert

I agree, in part, with Jeff’s last point, and appreciate his views, while they do not always square with my more basic observations. Now where I differ with Leve are on the Chateaux that have gone modern… While the jury may be out in the long haul, my own, fairly extensive tastings of many of these Chateaux at 10-15 years out, suggests these wines will not age…

Robert, what wines and vintages are you specifically thinking of?

[Pat_Martin]

@Craig G

If you have a hard time finding 80’s Bordeaux that you like, you don’t really like Bordeaux

My sentiments exactly.

[Robert.A.Jr]

@Jeff Leve

@Robert Alfert

I agree, in part, with Jeff’s last point, and appreciate his views, while they do not always square with my more basic observations. Now where I differ with Leve are on the Chateaux that have gone modern… While the jury may be out in the long haul, my own, fairly extensive tastings of many of these Chateaux at 10-15 years out, suggests these wines will not age…

Robert, what wines and vintages are you specifically thinking of?

The 2005 vintage, in particular. The modern St Ems that I tried were not good at all. I have quite a few notes on this board regarding my thoughts. Mine alone, of course, and I realize my views may not be the average, especially based on what I see on CT. Some left banks as well, like Lascombes, were terrible.

I should clarify, my use of the term “fairly extensive” is overstated. Was really meant in the context of my own holdings.

[Marc_Frontario]

@Jeff Leve

@Robert Alfert

I agree, in part, with Jeff’s last point, and appreciate his views, while they do not always square with my more basic observations. Now where I differ with Leve are on the Chateaux that have gone modern… While the jury may be out in the long haul, my own, fairly extensive tastings of many of these Chateaux at 10-15 years out, suggests these wines will not age…

Robert, what wines and vintages are you specifically thinking of?

just look at the alcohol levels of rive droite over the not so distant past and present… the alcohol levels of risen considerably.

[Jeff_Leve]

@Robert Alfert

@Jeff Leve

@Robert Alfert

I agree, in part, with Jeff’s last point, and appreciate his views, while they do not always square with my more basic observations. Now where I differ with Leve are on the Chateaux that have gone modern… While the jury may be out in the long haul, my own, fairly extensive tastings of many of these Chateaux at 10-15 years out, suggests these wines will not age…

Robert, what wines and vintages are you specifically thinking of?

The 2005 vintage, in particular. The modern St Ems that I tried were not good at all. I have quite a few notes on this board regarding my thoughts. Mine alone, of course, and I realize my views may not be the average, especially based on what I see on CT. Some left banks as well, like Lascombes, were terrible.

I should clarify, my use of the term “fairly extensive” is overstated. Was really meant in the context of my own holdings.

What wines are you specifically talking about from 2005?

[Marc_Frontario]

though lascombes is variable in 2005
…i actually had a beautiful bottle of the Lascombes and an overoaked bottle…
much like '05 Meyney

while not right bank, I remember tasting 2005 SHL about 4-5 yrs back with Robert…it was wayyy over the top…while the '04 SHL previously was a gorgeous, classic sip

[Jayson_Cohen]

There are great red Bordeaux wines from the 60s, 70s, and 80s… And after. And before.

I like 'em aged. I’m not shy about that. I’m not that interested in drinking young Bordeaux. Never have been in my 20-year adventure into wine. In my experience young Bordeaux can be great but does not attain the heights of older wine. It can’t for many of us. It’s literally almost chemically impossible and in practice is impossible. Once one acquires the taste for what traditionally-made Bordeaux becomes, which is magical, one can’t unring the bell. But it’s plain this doesn’t happen to everyone.

It’s sad that traditionally-made wines that had no problem whatsoever aging brilliantly for 40+ years (and really did need decades to develop) have gone to the dark side and adopted a modern winemaking philosophy that tends to mask the qualities of these wines that made them so brilliant. My favorites were Poyferre, Pape Clement, and Domaine de Chevalier. The view that somehow these wines are better now - more pure or texturally superior or have better fruit - is not an objective truth. It’s only one view. And I’d posit it’s now passé to think it’s the objective truth as some continue to think.

We frankly don’t know how the younger wines made in a modern style will age. I hope those of us who have doubts are proven wrong. Only time will tell. But for those of us who feel the wines from the 80s and 70s and 60s did need time (many still need more from the 70s and definitely from the 80s), we are not wrong to be skeptics of modern winemaking. It’s plain in other regions where a similar modernization occurred that the traditionalists were “right”, and the wine world has been coming around – for example Barolo/Barbaresco, Northern Rhone, Rioja. It’s not a rejection of the technology and techniques of the last 35 years. It’s a recognition that they have their limits, their drawbacks, and their repercussions.

I’m still invested in this ongoing discussion because the dirt hasn’t changed even if the climate has. Poyferre, Pape Clement, and DDC can still reverse course, throw out their oenologists, and start making the vin de garde they never should have stopped making. If that were to happen in 2018, I might still be here to drink those wines when they start to reach the level of maturity I really like, 30+ years out.

[Marc_Frontario]

Poyferre, Pape Clement<

at our grand 2010 vintage release tasting, these two were completely open new world leaning wines and unfortunately two of the most popular.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Neal.Mollen

I don’t know what evidence one might cite for the belief that the wines of the last 15 0r 20 years won’t be terrific when they are this age. They might all fall apart, but what evidence we currently have suggests otherwise.

The lesson I have learned from the wines of the 80s is that “off” vintages are capable of producing long-lived and deeply pleasurable drinking. The 82s and 89s, sure, but the 83s and 85s too.

There is a real problem today with people calling too many vintages off vintages. 1980, 1984 and 1987 were off vintages. 1981, 1983 and 1988 were not. And, in no possible universe was 1985 an off vintage. The value is not in off vintages (more recently, 2007 and 2013 for example). It is in good vintages like 2001 and 2014.

[Marc_Frontario]

@Howard Cooper

@Neal.Mollen

I don’t know what evidence one might cite for the belief that the wines of the last 15 0r 20 years won’t be terrific when they are this age. They might all fall apart, but what evidence we currently have suggests otherwise.

The lesson I have learned from the wines of the 80s is that “off” vintages are capable of producing long-lived and deeply pleasurable drinking. The 82s and 89s, sure, but the 83s and 85s too.

There is a real problem today with people calling too many vintages off vintages. 1980, 1984 and 1987 were off vintages. 1981, 1983 and 1988 were not. And, in no possible universe was 1985 an off vintage. The value is not in off vintages (more recently, 2007 and 2013 for example). It is in good vintages like 2001 and 2014.

and 2004

[Howard_Cooper]

There were great wines in the 1970s and I love them, esp from the 1970 vintage. But there were tons of underperforming estates then. Taste Lafite or Ausone from 1970 or Margaux from that era and you will see what I mean. But, taste 1970s from Latour, Leoville Poyferre or Barton, Lynch Bages (which I had this year - it blew away a 1982 Lynch Bages we had with it), Palmer or Haut Brion and you will see what the vintage was capable of in the right hands.

More estates make good wines in the 80s, but there were still under performers.

Today, same thing. There are vintages where I love the wines, including 1996, 2005 and 2010. And, from recently tasting a 2016 Pichon Lalande, I wonder if this could be a historically great vintage. There are still great properties making great wines. I was at three fabulous verticals this year - Montrose, Leoville las Cases and Pichon Lalande that really proved this and over long stretches of time.

So, my view is that there have been great wines in all eras and you cannot buy blindly to find them.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

I firmly believe the “newer” vintages will “get there.” I am constantly amazed at what passes for “aged” or “peak maturity,” even among the wine geek crowd. Some of that, for sure, is attributable to differences in opinion as to what “aged” and “peak maturity” is, but a lot of it owes (I believe) to a general lack of patience and folks trying to convince themselves they opened that bottle at the perfect time.

Big-time wines need big-time time. Nobody Said It Would Be Easy …

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

@Neal.Mollen

I don’t know what evidence one might cite for the belief that the wines of the last 15 0r 20 years won’t be terrific when they are this age. They might all fall apart, but what evidence we currently have suggests otherwise.

The lesson I have learned from the wines of the 80s is that “off” vintages are capable of producing long-lived and deeply pleasurable drinking. The 82s and 89s, sure, but the 83s and 85s too.

Almost all of the '14’s I’ve had (a couple more humble ones this past weekend) have me firmly applying this feeling to the vintage. Now, have I had a lot? No. But I believe I’ve had enough to have a firm grasp on the vintage. Structure and low alcohols are not a thing of the past in Bdx.; they’re simply not.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

@Robert Alfert

Great post, Pat. Do you have a link to that BWE thread? Some smart peeps over there.

I came into Bordeaux in 1992, so was trying young Bordeaux from 1986, 88, 89 and shortly thereafter, 1990. While some were lean and hard, some closed, some monolithic - and many did actually have open windows - I still vividly recall a musky perfume that I really do not get from the vast majority of Bordeaux being produced today. I’m sure some will attribute the musk to the cleanliness of the cellar, or that pariah, brett, that is even being called now the genesis of bacon in Northern Rhone, but whatever it was, and is on these old wines, I love it. It was what clearly differentiated Cali Cabs to me, which was the other wine region that I was exploring, especially after having clerked in San Fran just prior to law graduation. I am not suggesting that Bordeaux from 2000, 05, 2010 and 2014 are not as good, I actually voted with my wallet by going deep here, but perhaps they are a bit different stylistically. Maybe it’s like comparing a Tesla to the muscle cars of the 1980s.

ummmmm …

[Robert.A.Jr]

@Jeff Leve

I like all those wines, but 86 Gruaud can show a lot of brett, and while 89 Montrose is a stunner, the 90 is marred by brett.

But does seem to be one of the higher scored vintages of Montrose on your site, even with the presence of some horse and barn per your notes.

[Ian_Sutton]

@Jayson Cohen

We frankly don’t know how the younger wines made in a modern style will age. I hope those of us who have doubts are proven wrong. Only time will tell. But for those of us who feel the wines from the 80s and 70s and 60s did need time (many still need more from the 70s and definitely from the 80s), we are not wrong to be skeptics of modern winemaking. It’s plain in other regions where a similar modernization occurred that the traditionalists were “right”, and the wine world has been coming around – for example Barolo/Barbaresco, Northern Rhone, Rioja. It’s not a rejection of the technology and techniques of the last 35 years. It’s a recognition that they have their limits, their drawbacks, and their repercussions.

Such an interesting debate.

I share the same concerns that we can’t ‘have our cake and eat it’, and that making wines to be more appealing / softer when young, is going to greatly risk longevity. For some wines (and wine drinkers) that’s fine, they were going to be drunk young anyway, so I can see the positives. However some wines that are expected to be long-term, have fallen well short due to experimentation in making them more approachable.

Barolo/Barbaresco is interesting, as what was a very polarising debate, appears to have settled into a more complex landscape of subtle differences. I’m still traditionalist leaning in my preferences (if I want lush, immediate fruit then other wine regions do that much better, so why compete with them?), but there is a spread of styles in the cellar. Some modernist-leaning wines are ageing pretty well, though whether they ever achieve the delicate, ethereal brilliance of the best (and luckiest) traditional examples, I’m not so confident.

Even something as seemingly clear-cut, as cleanliness in the cellar, isn’t so certain for those of us who like Ch Musar, old Barolo, old Rhone, etc. A little VA or Brett can be appealing to many, and conversely the drive for ultra-clean wines (seen most obviously in Australia), for me risks producing wines with less character/complexity.

Some vine training systems, touted as perfect for quality, have since been ditched as growers rediscover the advantages of a simpler traditional approach (e.g. Gobelet / Bush vine reappearing in warmer parts of Italy).

Intriguing that the worldwide trend of higher alcohol levels, is starting to reverse, led rather ironically by warm climate Australia (but in truth, this is a winemaking country that doesn’t stand still, and is often setting the trends). Italy will take time to catch up, and it will be a while before we stop seeing Valpolicella at alcohol levels previously seen in Amarone.

As to Bordeaux, I’ve not enjoyed modern style St Emilion, and it feels such a prevalent style that it’s been years since we’ve bought any. Last bottle drunk (a year ago) was a 1980 Château La Gaffelière, and prior to that nothing since 2011. We still stick with the occasional Pomerol (the brains of the operation has a soft spot for it). As for left-bank, it’s not so much the winemaking changes, as the pricing that has drawn us away from buying.

Regards
Ian

[Robert.A.Jr]

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

@Robert Alfert

Maybe it’s like comparing a Tesla to the muscle cars of the 1980s.

ummmmm …

Youngsters these days . . . .

[Ian_Dorin]

@Pat Martin

@Craig G

If you have a hard time finding 80’s Bordeaux that you like, you don’t really like Bordeaux

My sentiments exactly.

Bingo!

@Ramon C

I’d love to love the 70’s Bdx wines that I had but, unlike those from 1980s, not enough of the ones that were poured my way worked for me to feel enthusiastic about the decade. In a couple of tastings that included Bdx wines from the 70s, I gave up and poured them down the spit bucket and was not at all regretful to do so as they were not something that was necessary for me to keep drinking. Others, I noticed, did the same pour down. In a couple of other tasting that had all or mostly vintages from1970’s, others also poured down the spit bucket. Perhaps, us being civilians and not ITB may have something to do with it, but I suspect that the 1970s wines we had were mostly secondary market stuff, just as the mostly good 1980’s ones that I’ve experienced drinking in other off lines.

My reference to the 70s kind of had my own personal caveat to it. The storage and quality is certainly uneven, but there are fun wines from 70, 71 and 75 that I love, and can find gems from 78 and 79 too. Most other years though are a total bust.

[William_Kelley]

@Robert Alfert

Great post, Pat. Do you have a link to that BWE thread? Some smart peeps over there.

I came into Bordeaux in 1992, so was trying young Bordeaux from 1986, 88, 89 and shortly thereafter, 1990. While some were lean and hard, some closed, some monolithic - and many did actually have open windows - I still vividly recall a musky perfume that I really do not get from the vast majority of Bordeaux being produced today. I’m sure some will attribute the musk to the cleanliness of the cellar, or that pariah, brett, that is even being called now the genesis of bacon in Northern Rhone, but whatever it was, and is on these old wines, I love it. It was what clearly differentiated Cali Cabs to me, which was the other wine region that I was exploring, especially after having clerked in San Fran just prior to law graduation. I am not suggesting that Bordeaux from 2000, 05, 2010 and 2014 are not as good, I actually voted with my wallet by going deep here, but perhaps they are a bit different stylistically. Maybe it’s like comparing a Tesla to the muscle cars of the 1980s.

Brett certainly often is part of the equation in these wines, but I think a more oxidative style of winemaking and elevage is also an important factor in producing the aromas you identify. Speaking generally, the trend over the last few decades has been for less racking and briefer barrel maturation. (And that’s to some extent an adaptation to riper fruit).

To me, the '70s and '80s in Bordeaux sometimes seem like a story of adapting to the increased yields permitted by modern viticulture (fertilizers, clones, mechanization etc). Beginning in the late 1960s, yields in Bordeaux soared. Larger crops are harder to ripen: in the '70s, they often didn’t; in the '80s, they mostly didn’t.

I certainly love '80s Bordeaux, but excepting a handful of '82s, '86s and '89s, it’s hard to think of anything from the decade that matches the sheer intensity and concentration (without heaviness) of the great post-war and interwar vintages, when yields were much lower and before the introduction of clonal selections. Of course, these days those wines are pretty old, and without perfect provenance very variable, but the highs remain extraordinary. And interestingly, as an aside, in my experience those wines very seldom show any brett.