I’m having a cellar built in my basement, and was looking for recommendations when it comes to cooling options. I realize that there’s no shortage of these threads on WB, and at this point I’m fairly confident that I’ve read through all of them. However, it seems as though size, location, insulation, etc. all play a role in determining what cooling option is best for that person’s specific set up. Also, like anything else, as time goes on the cooling solutions available on the market change as technology improves, etc.
The specs for my cellar are as follows:
10 ft x 11ft with 82” ceilings (roughly 770 cubic feet)
R-21 (3”) closed cell spray foam for all walls and ceiling
Flooring will be “thin brick”
2 of the walls are exterior walls
The house is air conditioned and in the summer the basement shouldn’t get above 75 degrees
There’s no windows in the cellar
There’s no glass in the cellar
I haven’t picked out a door yet, but it will be something which has function over form in mind with good insulation
Located in a basement which is mostly underground
Located in Long Island, New York
Wooden racking from WRA which accommodates approximately 1,500 bottles
After reading all of the threads here, the option which I’m leaning towards the most is a ductless mini split with a CoolBot.
From what I’ve read, the things I like about it are:
Reliability/ease of servicing: It appears as though it’s cheaper to service, and it’s easier to find a tech capable of serving a “normal” ductless mini split as a opposed to a wine specific unit
Cost: Looks like a good unit can be purchased for ½ or even a ⅓ of the price of a wine specific split system
My dislikes/concerns:
Humidity: This is a major concern of mine. I want to make 1000% sure that by going the CoolBot route, humidity is correct. I’ve read that some people have trouble keeping the humidity under control. I don’t want to run into an issue after the unit’s been installed, and I come to find out that humidity is either way too high and I’ve got labels peeling off or mold issues. Or humidity is too low. Having to add a dehumidifier after going through all the work, and expense of building a cellar from scratch would be extremely upsetting.
Cracking open a brand new ductless mini split, and “hacking” it to function in a way that it wasn’t originally intended. To be honest, this isn’t a huge concern of mine, in fact it’s a very minor concern, but it’s somewhat of a drawback I suppose.
With all of that said, I’m still somewhat open to the idea of a wine specific split. I’m curious to hear what everyone’s thoughts and recommendations are. If you have a CoolBot do you like it? Any issues with it? Have you owned a wine specific unit in the past which you liked more or less? If you have a wine specific unit, do you like it? Any regrets? Given the specs of my cellar, what cooling unit do you recommend? Any and all feedback, thoughts, suggestions, etc. are greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!
Follow-up question. Is this storage for extremely high end / rare bottles of wine? I see very serious wine collectors using two systems (one back-up) with a generator.
Nothing too crazy. If there’s a loss in power or if the unit breaks and I have to wait a day or a few days for a replacement I’m not concerned if the bottles are room temp for a few days.
I think the hard thing is that most of us can only speak to the system we have (and most of us only have one cellar). I’m sure you’ve seen the previous threads with Coolbot users extolling its virtues. It seems like most folks who have that setup are happy with it. I have never used a Coolbot, so I can’t address your questions or concerns. (I did consider it, but I have a weirdly-shaped space that made fitting a traditional mini-split or window air conditioner tricky, and I also didn’t love the aesthetics of most of the options.)
I have a Wine Guardian that has been working without issue for a few years, but I had a rough start with it (and with the company), so I would probably go in a different direction in the future.
Retired Mechanical professional engineer here primarily HVAC with some refrigeration experience.
I would opt for a commercial split system, that’s what I have. It won’t be as pretty as a mini-split but should be a lot more reliable. I don’t know if they have improved over the years, but we had a client who used them for data closets and they replaced them every 4-5 years and often had drain pan overflows. Don’t waste your time looking for wine room cooling units, search for a local mechanical contractor who specifically does commercial refrigeration work and they will know where to source the equipment. Here’s my evaporator it’s made by a company called Peerless of America, it’s not pretty but it works.
My outside condensing unit looks a little rough, it will be 20 years old next year. They typically come without an enclosure as they are sometimes installed in the unconditioned space, for outside installation you’ll want to get what they call a doghouse. It’s a Copeland M2FH-0026-IAA-001. Here’s a pic.
NOTE This may not be the size you need for your cellar! There’s a way to calculate that which your installer should be able to do as it’s a pretty straightforward calculation.
Finally this is the electronic controller I use to set my cellar temperature and the deadband. This is a commercial quality controller and original to my room so it’s over 30 years old. I use what’s called a pump down control system so there is no wiring between my temperature controller and the condensing unit and highly recommend you use this approach. You want to sense the air temperature not the bottle temp as the air temperature changes much more quickly.
Your normal mini-split is designed for comfort cooling and to remove humidity so it uses a nominal 20 degree temperature differential. Depending on the application refrigeration equipment (specifically the evaporator) is usually sized for a 15-10 degree split meaning they move more air than a comfort type of system so the air is not as cold and doesn’t remove as much condensate. I believe my system is around a 10 degree split, it will vary depending on the actual evaporator and condensing unit used which should be selected by your installer.
If at all possible use a gravity based condensate drain arrangement, a pump is just one more thing to go wrong and require periodic maintenance.
I avoided answering the first time you posted because I don’t have a mini-split, and I don’t have a CoolBot. But I have been very happy with my CellarPro 1800 series cooling unit. The folks at CellarPro were very easy to work with, and they were able to take all my cellar information and turn that into a properly sized unit recommendation. I’ve only had the unit in service for about 9 months, but I haven’t had any problems at all. Everything works as promised, and both temperature and humidity are spot on.
So I guess that’s my way of saying that if I were looking for a split unit to cool a cellar, I would look at CellarPro again.
Long story short. I inherited a cellar space. Spent years with commercial refrigeration and other technicians trying to fix the existing commercial unit, and then craft a new solution when we couldn’t fix it. It was all a disaster and a huge hassle and expensive.
Finally someone introduced me to a local guy who designed cellars and he recommended and installed a mini-split with a coolbot. Actually two mini-splits. That was in 2015. I have had no problems and I know that I could fix/replace either unit without any problem because they are simple off-the-shelf refrigeration mini-splits.
I have a stand-alone dehumidifier. No problems and would do it again in an instant. Forget about all these bespoke cooling systems - they just exist to make other people money.
your overall post looks extremely informative, nicely done - I can’t comment on most of it, but I can on this - I agree! Having had to replace my condensate pump now not once, but TWICE in less than five years, it’s a real PITA!
Thank you Mike, this is very helpful. I haven’t investigated commercial cooling units at all, as I just assumed it would be far more costly than the mini split + CoolBot solution.
How’s the humidity with an application like this, does it require a dehumidifier?
Regarding your outside unit is the “doghouse” a cover of sorts like a central AC system or mini split would have on the outside of your house? I’m assuming it’s ok to leave it uncovered like you have in the photo?
A lot of the posts I read about people using the CoolBot I saw people mention that they have to use a dehumidifier, which I’d rather not do. Is there a way around the dehumidifier?
If not, I’m curious to hear what kind of dehumidifier setup you have. I don’t know anything about dehumidifiers other than the little box on wheels typically found in a basement which holds around a gallon of water which then you have to empty. I’m wondering if the dehumidifier is a must, if there’s a more inconspicuous, and integrated option out there. Perhaps something that’s also plumbed (not sure if that exists). What do you use, if you don’t mind me asking? Do you use it year round?
I have a CellarPro split system and it is “plumbed” - sort of. I would prefer a more robust design, but it drains via plastic tubing (not included) to the drain line I had built into the cellar wall, which then runs into one of our waste stacks. I never need to dehumidify, but the humidity does get lower than I’d like in the winter. The unit has a humidity adjustment but it’s not enough to keep the humidity up to 70 in winter (it’s more like 50). Adjusting it the other way, I can keep the humidity down to 75 in summer. The drain line does get that gunk in it that is common to a/c systems so it needs to be flushed or treated every so often which is a PITA. I’m not aware of any wine cooling unit that will both add and remove moisture as needed to really keep humidity dialed in to 70 year round, if that is your goal.
I only mentioned the dehumidifier because you mentioned it in your initial post. I could look, but it IS basically a box in my basement - because my basement is my cellar. I have an old house and old cellar and would need a dehumidifier whether or not I have a coolbot, so I don’t know that my experience is relevant. You set it at a relative humidity and then it runs until you reach that humidity. In the summer, that means it runs most of the time. It has a hose that goes into a cellar drain. In the winter, it doesn’t run as often (not surprisingly).
My bottom line advice is to not overthink it. I keep data collected at numerous points in the cellar and my cellar operates within a narrow and consistent range all year around. Obviously it is well-insulated and below grade as well.
From the IT side of things the thing that trips people up with many mini-split systems is that the cheap/residential ones aren’t made to run constantly, they assume that they only kick on when it’s hot. In a situation where it will always be on (like an equipment room that is actively generating heat 24/7/365) you need a unit with a 100% duty cycle. I’m not an HVAC professional (though I have a few clients who are and have taught me a thing or two), but the newer mini splits are reputed to be significantly more reliable.
I think regardless of which option is picked though, doing the research and paying for an expert installation is extremely important. Even with the best/most correct equipment you can’t just hand Flannery beef to a day 1 chef and expect the best, to use a crude analogy.
I only mentioned the dehumidifier because you mentioned it in your initial post. I could look, but it IS basically a box in my basement - because my basement is my cellar. I have an old house and old cellar and would need a dehumidifier whether or not I have a coolbot, so I don’t know that my experience is relevant. You set it at a relative humidity and then it runs until you reach that humidity. In the summer, that means it runs most of the time. It has a hose that goes into a cellar drain. In the winter, it doesn’t run as often (not surprisingly).
Thank you both, this is very helpful!
I’m curious if anyone else has feedback regarding commercial refrigeration units, the CoolBot set tup, or wine cellar specific systems. I’m not ruling any of these out just yet, though I’m still leaning towards the CoolBot set up. The more feedback the better. I’m just curious what the overall consensus is from the group. You’ve all been extremely helpful so far.
Also, is anyone by chance located on Long Island, or the NY area and has a recommendation for someone familiar with cooling systems for cellars, i.e. commercial refrigeration units, the CoolBot set tup, or wine cellar specific systems?
In the photo for my existing unit the doghouse is an aluminum enclosure with a louvered front hinged at the top, in the photo I’ve opened the front louver and what you’re seeing is the condenser coil where the hot air comes out. In the screenshot of the new unit the condensing coil is in the black box at the far end. Here’s an example:
It’s encouraging to see positive replies from those who have gone the mini split route. If you could get them to use a larger size evaporator (indoor unit) you will operate at a higher relative humidity level.
As for my arrangement I have a very old hygrometer on my cellar wall and it shows the RH in the high 70’s pretty consistently, years ago I checked it with a sling psychrometer from work and it was reading within 5%. I haven’t had any problems with labels.
Another happy Coolbot user here. Works well with the Mitsubishi mini split I had installed. I don’t use a dehumidifier - maybe it’s just me but I don’t really measure humidity or care about it. Nothing feels out of the ordinary in there and I’m not seeing any widespread label issues.
