2016 the new 1961 in Bordeaux?

Thanks Jim. This is pretty much what I recall. Even dividing by 2, as you must do with Suckling’s ratings, this is the story of a vintage that produced some prodigious, delicious, and atypical wines, but a lot of dreck as well. Exceptionally uneven. That is what all the major critics said at the time, as I recall. As best I can recall, no one ever claimed it was a Vintage of the Century, although people here often like to claim that that was the case

I’m curious – how old are you? And when did you start drinking serious Bordeaux?

Wow. We could do away with all the debates about points – discrepancies in ratings and the merit of point scales in general – if we simply looked at an objectively measured “oomph” scale.

Is this the same as a gobs scale.

You are so right! With all the awesome tech coming, soon we won’t even need to grow the grapes – agriculture is such an anachronism – we will make the best wine ever straight up in the lab. And then after that, we won’t even need to drink anything, virtual reality technology awesomeness wired directly into our brains will make it seem like we are all drinking (wait for it)… the 61 Latour every night.

What a Luddite you are! Soon, you will be able to neuro-stimulate a 47 Cheval from your smartphone (Apple only) without any liquids involved at all! There’ll be an app for that!

That day is today, as Peter Kleban pointed out: “Many mass-market wines are designed by sensory scientists with the help of data-driven focus groups and dozens of additives that can, say, enhance a wine’s purple hue or add a mocha taste.”

There’s no reason the same techniques can’t be applied to high-end wines.

I know there are nice Petit Bordeaux that are always available for a nice price, but looking at some of the chateaus in the quality/price range you mention, they’ve been pretty overpriced from 2009-2013. 09/10 prices are just plain ridiculous to me, I don’t care if it’s a great vintage or not. 11-13 were also overpriced for the mediocre quality in an era where there are plenty of good vintages in other regions. I actually bought a few cases in 14 (a lot for me!), which is no vintage of the millennium, but gives me reasonable prices for a solid vintage, which is what I’m really looking for.

The huge price fluctuations with vintage are a huge turnoff for me. I get that Bordeaux is a region that requires a ton of age and therefore the quality is perhaps the most vintage sensitive, but it rubs me the wrong way that they try to extract every penny out of their customers. And honestly, as the years go on, who will ever buy Bordeaux from 11-13 unless they slash those prices in half?

Daniel, the wines Jurgen references are not “Petite Bordeaux”. I actually like the vintage-pricing model, compared to Napa Cabs for example, which do not lower prices in lower quality vintages, and if anything, raise prices in most years. Bordeaux appears to price what the market will accept. I’m ok with that. It generally works very well for me as I tend not to be as “wowed” by the Uber-ripe critics’ choice vintages, say like 2009, and tend to buy more restrained, classic vintages, like 2001, 2004, 2014. I may have more 2014 than 2005, as it was a vintage priced almost back to 2004 prices, with many classified growths at $50 and some less.

I also disagree with the premise that Bordeaux as a whole is over-priced. Yes, some hyped estates in hyped vintages are, but values abound. Yesterday I bought 2000 Chasse Spleen for $50. Show me where I can get a comparable Cab-blend with maturity for that price.

Pricing for the 09s and 10s in the US market also reflected the exchange rate, in part. The euro was over $1.40 in 2011 when the 09s were coming in and the '10 futures were pricing, and Chinese demand was still high. Now it’s at $1.08.

newhere Hmm.

Thanks for your comments but my intent was not actually to re-ignite the new-school vs. old-school Bordeaux-blood fued.

Rather I had hoped to hear some thoughts(from someone a bit more reliable than Rimmerman) on the actual quality of the vintage.

Mark seemed to suggest that his sources indicate that it actually may be one of the great ones.

Jeff, any more info for us?
newhere

Yes, I just mentioned the Petit bdx, because in every thread about bdx prices, there is always someone who will point out Petit chateaus as proof of the great value of bdx. I don’t find the argument convincing, because there are such equivalents in every wine region. I think actually you and I are in agreement here, since I also found 2014 to hold great value. What I will disagree on is the idea that the Bordelaise are pricing what the market will bear. I wonder how well the prices of 11, 12, and 13 have borne for sales of those wines.

I claim no great experience in wine, i only speak for myself as a a young consumer. And my consumer preferences are for solid, ageworthy wines that speak of place without breaking the bank. 2014 was that vintage for me, but with growing hype now for 2015/2016 and the propensity to jack up prices for hyped vintages, I am afraid that it will prove to be more of an exception then the general rule.

That being said, of course there will always be value bdx buys that I am happy to engage in. You’ll get no argument from me that Bdx gives more value than Napa. But if 2014-like vintages are going to be far and few in between, there is plenty of Loire, Riesling, and nebbiolo, and rioja that id love to buy broadly in.

I think 2011 - 2013 may become restaurant vintages. But I could be wrong.

I don’t get too concerned as the pricing isnin cycles. Vintage 2000 was expensive, 2001 was not; vintage 2003 went up again, 2004 went down. Vintage 2005 went crazy, then 2008 had some nice, classic values. Of course, 09/10 went nuts. I did buy a lot of 2010, as that vintage spoke to me. Vintage 2012 has some lovely, well-priced wines, I grabbed some classified Growths for $50 and under, just like I did in 2014. I think the 1990s were similar. So yea, prices are going up again, but a poor vintage, an economic pull-back, something will happen to bring it down for another classic, well-priced vintage.

I have to say, however, the smarter play for me at age 51 is to backfill. I get offers every week with more mature Bordeaux that are priced better than new releases or things like 2015 futures.

I also buy lots of those killer Chinons! Glad you like them too, as values abound.

I don’t know how old he is but I believe he was drinking seriously for at least several hours before posting.

I fear for Blake’s safety! He has neither been seen nor heard from since his binge!

Kids these days…

:wink:

Prices go up, prices go down. That is what happens in a free market. That is what the market bears. Any winery can ask what they want for a wine, it’s up to the market to decide what it will bear.

I claim no great experience in wine, i only speak for myself as a a young consumer. And my consumer preferences are for solid, ageworthy wines that speak of place without breaking the bank. 2014 was that vintage for me, but with growing hype now for 2015/2016 and the propensity to jack up prices for hyped vintages, I am afraid that it will prove to be more of an exception then the general rule.

I like some wines in 2014. But at least for me, having actually tasted a lot of those wines, 2015 and 2016 are better than 2014. Better wines cost more money. Where is the problem with that? You want to pay less money for lesser quality, and thus lesser demand, which is fair. So, why isn’t it also fair to pay more for better quality wines with higher demand?

My I ask you a question Daniel? What is your comfortable price point for a wine? It does not matter if it’s high or low, I’m just curious as to what it is…

I certainly agree with that statement. I am not saying that the Bordelaise are “wrong” for how they price their wines, this is a free market; I don’t feel indignant about it, but I will choose not to buy, which is a shame for a region with such history and wines. If this strategy is what is most profitable for the Chateaus, who am I to argue? I’m just a drop in an ocean of wine buyers. That being said, Bordeaux is just one of many wine regions competing for my current wallet, and more importantly I might argue, for my wine preferences and memory.

Based on many posts here, I imagine that what wines one drinks in his/her early years shapes their preferences and wine memory. Surely many Bordeaux lovers here love Bdx not only because of the “objective” greatness of these wines, but also because of how much great Bdx they enjoyed in their past. I imagine if I had many great experiences with Bdx in my past, then drinking Bdx wines might give me even greater pleasure than an equivalent bottle of wine from another region.

However, I don’t have those same ties to Bordeaux. I have a sort of tabula rasa when it comes to buying, and am only beginning to develop preferences for styles and regions. As such, I’m buying, drinking, and loving far more wines without dramatic price fluctuations, including Loire reds/whites, German Riesling, Piedmontese Nebbiolo (to a certain extent), Rioja, etc. I suspect the longer I continue to drink these wines, the more I will become historically and emotionally invested in them to the point where Bordeaux will lose its opportunity to imprint itself upon me. Most bordeaux lovers I find are much older than I am (I’m 28 years old), and I know very few people my age who regularly drink Bordeaux, but this is only the US market. I am sure that the Asian markets will make it a net positive for the Bordelaise.

I haven’t tasted 2015 yet, I did buy a mixed bag of halves so I can sample them young and then choose to buy more of what I like, if I like it. That being said, my tastes don’t always line up with critics, so why pay even more? I find these statements of “better” are far more tied to stylistic preference than any sort of objective truth (though 2013 would seem to objectively suck). It’s not a question of fairness, that would imply Bordeaux owes me anything. They don’t. But I just loaded up on 2015 German Riesling, which, while extremely hyped, wasn’t significantly more expensive than past vintages. I’m not even sure that I prefer 2015 to some other past vintages, but because the pricing was not much more expensive and the wines were tasty, it was an extremely easy choice for me to make. Some of that money could’ve gone to 2015 Bordeaux, but it didn’t because the increased prices were unpalatable.

I really don’t like spending more than 60 USD on a bottle of wine, although I have done it on occassion. The wines I bought in 2014 include Beychevelle, Leoville Barton, Grand Puy Lacoste, Rauzan Segla, d’Issan.

I’m getting excited for 15 and 16, and am grateful that 12 and 14 are available at reasonable prices. The 12’s I’ve tried are quite solid, and I’ve put a few of the right banks down to cellar.

There are still a few wines from 2010 available. Surprisingly they never fully sold out, and as of late last year, there were still stock in Bordeaux. This was partly due to the Chinese not buying as futures, and then the wines did come to market, demand was beginning to drop. Couple this with a few merchants holding onto stock because they could and they realized prices would go up, means that there are plenty of late releases coming to market and decent prices. for instance, I just bought some half bottles of Giscours 2010 from Flickinger for $33 a half. Better I think than the Giscours from the glory days of the sixties and seventies, and from half bottle will probably be ready to drink in five to ten years.

Good price, good wine.