2005 vs 2007 Southern Rhone...who wins?

WINE TALK
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The reason I ask is that because many people are piling on the back of Robert Parker (by people, I mean sheep, really) by saying 2007 Southern Rhone is absolutely amazing. Now I have tasted some great wines and there is no doubt that it is a very very good vintage, however, many other “experts” including Domaines in CDP have said that 2005 is clearly a better vintage than 2007, something that Josh Raynolds and James Molesworth seemed to have indicated in their reviews of 2005 CDPs (which, interestingly enough came out in advance of Parker’s, which did not happen in 2007).

I enjoy both vintages, and sold both very well. We had some amazing deals on 2005 Cotes du Rhones when the wines came out and we have some great 2007s…what say you? Are you in the Parker camp? The Molesworth/Raynolds/Rhone camp? Or is the verdict still out?

2

Had a 2007 Vieux Donjon last night. Thought it was FAR superiour to the '05 that I have had twice from 750 and once from maggie.

3

I’ll let you know when I have my first ones in 2025.

4

I have had so many great S. Rhones from 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 its hard to believe that my little old taste buds are going to be able to detect much of a qualitative difference in the 2007s. I certainly hope so but I really doubt it.

5

What Ray said. But I’ll get back to you sooner, say 2017 or so…

6

I think our server situation should be working by then…

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Right now, I am digging the 07’s. You can pretty much close your eyes, and pluck out one of these guys and it’s going to be drinking well, no matter the price-point.

8

I’ve had a lot more overblown hot wines from 07 than 05… not the big names, but still… put me in the 05 camp, though I do look forward to 07 Les Quartz

9

Veronica

Did you not have the same success with 2005s? I am not picking on you but just curious?

Did anyone have bad 2005 Cotes du Rhone wines? Bad CDPs? Bad Gigondas?

I am more in the Daniel M camp…all of these vintages are great and from the Cotes du Rhone standpoint, was there a real discernable difference in the quality of 2005 vs 2007 CDRs? Or are people just buying more 2007s because Parker told them to?

We already had an interesting “debate” on the 2007 Delas CDR, a wine I sold lots of, but tasted on 3 occasions, and did not enjoy. But I think that will be the exception.

2005 is a great vintage and with 2007s starting to appear, 2005 CDPs will just get cheaper, IMO.

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I don’t hold my CDP’s as long as Ray does, but unfortunately Premier Cru sometimes does. pileon [swearing.gif]

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For Cotes du Rhone, Lirac and base Chateauneuf du Pape, 2007 seems to have more across the board consistency to me after only a little sampling.

At the high end of Chateauneuf du Pape, I think the differences will be smaller. The best 2005’s are fine wines !
After 5 years or so, we should have a better data point.

12

So, I had the good fortune last night to have another bottle of the 2005 Donjon to compare/contrast with the 2007 the night before.

My opinion based solely on these two vintages from the same producer: '05 is softer and more well rounded. The fruit concentration is off the hook and the nose is amazing. The '07 is a much larger and monolithic wine right now that when compared to its older brother is harder around the edges and needs refinement. I wish that I could have had the two side by side to have an academic comparison. With that said, 2005 is better for Donjon right now.

13

I don’t know. '07s aren’t even all bottled yet so hard to say. I was impressed with what I got to taste when I was over there. Only wines I found hot and overripe were some of the Font de Michelle offerings.

14

You don’t like trying a wine young so you can get more perspective when it’s older? I think it’s great to try old wines, but I always wonder sometimes what a great older wine tasted like when it was young. Just the geek in me I guess.

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I think the 2005s will be longer lived than the 2007s. But as others have pointed out, in 10 years time will I really be able to distinguish between 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007 in the Southern Rhone? All of these are excellent vintages.

17

Fair points by many, then why are people so gung ho on 2007 Cotes du Rhone right now? I did not get the impression about the 2005s, however I loved the wines, and saw no complaints from customers.

Besides 2002 and 2003, have there been bad vintages for Cotes du Rhone this decade?

18

I have not tried any of the 07 CDP’s yet Dan and I bought many good ones as I do in good quality years. I did buy an enormous amount of Cotes du Rhone from the Vintage and do agree with you that they were just well priced decent quaffers. The Maximillen Crois du Bois was very good, the others good to fair. I have not enjoyed many of the 05 CDP’s because of their large tannins and massive structure. Not what I enjoy about Rhones. After all I still have a palate and can taste without extremes. This is a debate for me that will have to wait into the next decade.

19

So far, I have liked the 07’s at least as well, but I think they have more structure and I plan on laying down a box or two for the next 5 to 7 years. I did not do that with the 05’s although I still have some left. They are holding fine, but I did not see much improvement. Just got my first 07 CdP’s in hand today so I can’t comment on those yet.

20

I figure, as long as Trey’s server survives, this thread will go to 2025 for Ray to chime in!