Hi Ray
Why not tell us about them from your experiences, to set the record straight as it were. Who they were and what they were like?
regards
Ian
For who? For what?
Well Ray was complaining about people making erroneous assumptions.
He has no obligation to tell anyone anything. The entire thread is just a bunch of sick conjecture. Beats out just about everything for worst thread on WB.
Indeed no obligation - but if complaining about misconceptions, then why not want to set the record straight.
Not intended as a route to then bash Ray - and he won’t get any argument from me in what he posts. I have no skin in this game.
edit Indeed I’m quite happy to make a request that others don’t use any such explanation by Ray as ammunition to attack him. As with the Lion thread, sometimes it is informative to hear an opinion that is away from the opinion of the crowd, and John gave a very thoughtful response on that thread.
I can’t imagine why Ray would waste his time posting here to clarify. It would be the equivalent of painting a big red Berserkers-friendly target on his chest, regardless of the content of anything he posted. The pitchforks and torches are always ready here…
The only interest I have is in knowing who they are is so that I don’t reference their tasting notes in CT. Once Rudy was found out they lost credibility due to not picking what bottles were Rudy’s fraudulent wines and which were not. They were posting label notes, not wine notes.
Hence the edit!
Maybe you’re right, as I don’t know if this forum is capable of a ‘truth and reconciliation’ process.
For those that are actively involved with this thread, would you agree to a deal where Ray gives the sort of info that would be useful to Mike, and a perspective from the inside of the group, in return for accepting the statement as something he won’t engage on further discussion about?
Without this, I doubt I would engage any further if I were him, so if you really want any more insight, such a deal may be your best route.
regards
Ian
When did this become an episode of Law & Order???
Good lord, 2 in a row.
You guys need to get your facts straight.
Rudi (not a y) was NOT one of the 12 Angry Men. He may have been in attendance a few times, but was not a regular.
From what I recall, none of them used CT, so you are fine (although Kapon’s notes go under the critics…), but you are DEFINITELY missing out on Ray’s notes.
If you want to make a rule for this thread, it should be how well you know the people involved, and whether or not you have any real, hard facts to bring to this thread.
Rumour has it that The 12 Angry Men are the proprietors of The Great Lakes Paperclip Company :
I wouldn’t go so far as David in labelling this the Worst Thread On WB…there have been numerous others that are likely ahead of it…but it surely ranks as one of the silliest threads. ![[wink.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/04707e6a7bbb03e0153e349d8a9270d30e1e9525.gif "wink"){kind=small}
Hank ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Thanks for the response Ian.
I take that as a ‘No’.
As you were folks.
Really? Don C., FBI, court, NY Times, LA Times, etc all spell Rudy.
In any case, I agree this is silly. Ray doesn’t need to bargain. He can contribute what he wants. Kapon and Rosania made themselves targets with their posts, but these other guys just drank some expensive wines. They were identified then with nicknames and didn’t post on the boards, so no reason their names should be “outed” now. Ray doesn’t need to invade other peoples’ privacy .
Mike, if you really think those people are posting on CT then you should be able to figure out by comparing who posted notes on same wines as Kapon on a single date. If I had to pick the 10 people I know with the greatest cellars, not one posts on CT (and only a couple occasionally post here)so not sure what Mike is worried about. As to They were posting label notes, not wine notes. I think with super-trophy wines one should assume that’s the norm, not the exception, unless you know the poster.
I wouldn’t post a list of people that were in the tasting group even if people here would recognize their names, never mind that the vast majority wouldn’t recognize a single name.
Considering this group hasn’t met in over ten years, I think I’ve spent enough time posting in this thread.
+1
this thread has been a great read. keep it coming.
I also think it is fine of Ray that he does´t tell the names of the anonymous members of the 12 angry men. They did´t post on BB and therefore it is a matter of privacy. We are not the NSA.
Another point is the role those played who were very active on the BB. It was always clear that Kurniawan and Kapon were not members of the 12 but they were partly participations. At least this is what we were told from Ray or/and Rob at that time. This interaction between the tasting group and Kurniawan/Kapon and their postings is mainly food for the controversy we are talking about.
It well may be that the 12 were “used” by Kurniawan/Kapon because they may have been potential buyers of the wines at Kapon´s auctions. Today we all know that something was very wrong with the behavior of Kurniawan/Kapon. 10 years ago it was not so clear but I and others had a feeling that something is doubtful. Also the fact that Rob put some wines into auction he raved about in his posts on Parkers BB. This was even discussed 10 years ago. So he was at least partly “ITB” without making this clear. He even said he is solely a consumer and not a seller. This was obviously only half of the truth. He even had to answer the question of Parker what the reason is to sell these wines … . What the role was of other members of the group is something I actually don´t know and I will not speculate.
The only thing I would be interested to know from Ray is if he sees some things different with the knowledge of today. He was someone who posted a lot about the tastings with the 12 men and of the tasting(s) with Kurniawan and Kapon. But I remember his tone was moderate in comparison to the ones of Rosania and Kapon. ok – it was long ago. But the scandal with fake wines and the methods of the gangsters to give credibility to their wines and to themselves is not and old story. It is and will be always actual. It´s the Rodenstock model – create an image with the help of the media and today the internet, consume the rarest wines and report about it, use people with a good name, taste together with critics like Parker and Meadows, and then sell your stuff to people with deep pockets and the believe to get the real thing from a reliable source. It is a subtle receipt.
I happen to know that at least 2 The 12 Angry Men are responsible for this video:
The fraudulent stock promoters of US listed Chinese stocks follow the same playbook. To them Rudi/Rudy is like a minor deity. Why mess around with selling “Lafeet Rothchilde” a faked case at a time, when one can sell millions of dollars of fake stock, at a time?
When most people refer to the 12 Angry men dinners, they are really referring to the John Kapon dinners that he, and others wrote about, and which he now continues to write about.
In fact they took an ospicious break, at least in writing about the events, until right after the Rudy trial when it all started up again.
I think it fair to correct that these are the dinners, and the subsequent write ups and email accounts to which most are referring.
I’ve stated that I think Ray is a good guy. But I find the righteous indignation here, quite unnecessary.
Those notes, posts and emails about the “heavy lumber” (f-Ing LAME!) dinners, certainly helped to substantiate Greenberg, Rudy and AMC- and caused many people to be victimized by them.
MD
This thread is more about innuendo and hate that you gargale with DRC than anything else.
It is rather easy to find a relationship between posting about a wine, and having that same wine up for auction. So show the two taking place, or just accept it as some will always live better than others.