Chenin Blanc must die

[Gary York]

Ok, so maybe that is a little strong. But after reading the NY Times article that is kind of how I feel. I rarely find a wine from this grape that I like. And I get tired of being told how much and why I should like them. It certianly didn't change after reading this, and I am more convinced. Even the panel seemed to struggle with the wine. And the prices for some of them are a non-starter for many. Yes I do run into a Vouvray or a Savennieres that I like every so often. But I just don't like them enough to buy. Maybe it's the wine or the price or both. I guess as a wine person I am supposed to like something like this, the little grape, kind of an underdog. But for me I have enough projects to work on. I am trying to get everyone I know to drink more Lugana and Pigato.

http://events.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/di ... 6wine.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Howard Cooper]

Are there any wines you actually like?

[Gary York]

In general?

[DCowell]

Huet makes some of the most reasonably priced great wines in the entire world. Whether you like them or not does not change the facts.

[Howard Cooper]

In general?

I don't care. I have never seen a written note by you that was even the slightest bit positive about any wine.

[Loren Sonkin]

A bit strong perhaps, but more for me. At least the Loire varieties which are some of my favorites in the wine world.

[Gary York]

Really? Where should I start? Do you want grapes, wine or producer?

[Dan Hammer]

Here's my favorite... from Long Island. 2008 Paumanok Chenin Blanc CT 91

[Gary York]

You must be trying to derail my thread. Last night I had three pretty nice bottles.
1 Dal Maso Gambellara
2 Broadbent Vinho Verde
3 Chateau Peyrassol Rose

[Gary York]

Long Island? They do make some nice whites there, but I am not sure that even LI can make a respectable wine from Chenin.

[Howard Cooper]

You must be trying to derail my thread.

That is all you ever do - try to derail threads.

[Frank Drew]

I'm with Loren -- more for us, without the prices going through the roof.

[Gerhard P.]

No need to die !

Chenin blanc is a very special grape - it is not for everyone and not for everyday ....

... it can produce extraordinary wines sweet as well as dry ones - and also sparkling wines are an excellent cheap alternative for Champagne!

One problem is that there are (as everywhere) a lot of mediocre wines produced ... but production nevertheless needs labourful efforts - and the wines therefore cannot be too cheap ...

The good news is that production is rather tiny - compared to other regions - and the top-wines are usually sold ... and a good lot is consumed locally ...

I admit the quantity of Chenin blanc in my cellar is not huge - but I don´t wanna miss the fine bottles of Savennieres, Vouvray, Coteaux du Layon, Saumur, Quarts de Chaume etc.

If the quality is still improving I don´t see any problems in the future.

[Lyle Fass]

Savennieres is one of the more "difficult" Chenin appellations. Many styles, some oxidized (Joly, e'Pire) so of course there will be variability. I look at Savennieres as I look at say, oxidized savagnin or chardonnay from the Jura, Not for everyone, but I am glad it exists, as it makes the wine world a hell of a more interesting place. For the record I like both, but am actually more picky about Savennieres as there are so few good producers.

[Randy Sloan]

[snip] But after reading the NY Times article that is kind of how I feel. I rarely find a wine from this grape that I like. [snip] Even the panel seemed to struggle with the wine. [snip]

Thanks for the link. However, my reading of the tasting report was different. The panel didn't seem to struggle with the wine, but did recommend extended decanting, serving with a meal, and realizing that the Chenin Blancs were often misunderstood and required some thought. The local did lament that she thought more could be done with the terroir. In fact, the article seemed to be encouraging you to continue your exploration of Chenin Blanc because good ones are out there. Quite of a few of the panel's tasting notes were quite complimentary and Asimov's closing sentence was that recommending the wines was a pleasure.

Anyway, a couple of very nice Chenin Blancs from this neck of the woods are Casa Nuestra Chenin Blanc Old Vines Home Vineyard and Milat Chenin Blanc Estate Bottled.

[Rick Gregory]

So? Don't fricking buy or drink them if you don't like them. You're this way about Burgs too. I'm with Howard here - wtf is your issue? No one likes everything. Buy and drink what you like, don' buy or drink what you don't like. But telling people who do like Chenins or Burgs or whatever that the wine sucks is asinine. Your ability to drink what you want isn't at all affected by the existence of Chenin, Burgundy or anything else..

[Roberto Rogness]

I'll take a good Chenin (Loire, South Africa) over Chardonnay any day (unless it's a great BdB Champagne).

Re the excellent value sparklers, try the Domaine des Rocher des Violettes Petillant Naturel. Under $25 and fantastic. And, it's hard to beat Villiera Chenin Blanc from SA as a fantastic value (well under $15) seafood wine...

[Chris Blum]

So? Don't fricking buy or drink them if you don't like them. You're this way about Burgs too. I'm with Howard here - wtf is your issue? No one likes everything. Buy and drink what you like, don' buy or drink what you don't like. But telling people who do like Chenins or Burgs or whatever that the wine sucks is asinine. Your ability to drink what you want isn't at all affected by the existence of Chenin, Burgundy or anything else..

+1,
actually isn't the reverse happening in South Africa where they tear up great old chenin blanc to plant more currently fashionable grapes.

[Kent Zimmerman]

I'll take a good Chenin (Loire, South Africa) over Chardonnay any day (unless it's a great BdB Champagne).

Re the excellent value sparklers, try the Domaine des Rocher des Violettes Petillant Naturel. Under $25 and fantastic. And, it's hard to beat Villiera Chenin Blanc from SA as a fantastic value (well under $15) seafood wine...

I totally agree. And why hate on a wine just because you don't care for it, or just don't get it? I really don't care for raisiny late-harvest zins, but I found that the best way to deal with that is to simply not buy them.

[Matt Latuchie]

Here are some great chenin's:

• 2006 Richard Leroy Anjou Les Noëls de Montbenault - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Anjou (3/22/2010)
  Wonderfully rich bottle of chenin. There is a nice amount of tropical fruits; pineapple especially. There is a subtle sweetness to this wine that comes across in a very elegant manner. There's no flabbiness on this wine, and the back end has great acidity. I would be very interested to revist this wine every 3 years for the next 15 years, as aged Chenin can exhibit some of the most exciting aged whites in the world. Great bottle. (92 pts.)
• 1990 Soulez Quarts de Chaume L'Amandier - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Quarts de Chaume (3/12/2010) 94 pts.
• 2005 Domaine des Baumard Savennières Clos du Papillon - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Savennières (2/7/2010)
  29th Birthday Celebration; 2/5/2010-2/7/2010 (my apartment): My first glass was too cold...and had a nasty metallic aftertaste. Once the bottle was opened longer, it began to really develop into a stunning bottle of Chenin. At one point I felt like the bottle began to take on bordeaux blanc type characteristics...with diesel, dandilions, and pineapples. Mouthfeel is great with this bottle, and I think this can last for another 10 years! (92 pts.)
• 2005 Domaine des Baumard Coteaux du Layon Cuvée Le Paon - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Coteaux du Layon (12/30/2009)
  December 30th (Washington, DC): Stunning bottle of chenin blanc. Aromatics are off the charts with apricots and honeycomb. The balance of this wine is amazing - it has a great sweetness, but the acidity keeps this bottle in check. I think this bottle can be the ideal desert wine, but could also do a number on many main courses. Seek out this stunning bottle. (95 pts.)
• 2005 Domaine des Baumard Coteaux du Layon Cuvée Le Paon - France, Loire Valley, Anjou-Saumur, Coteaux du Layon (11/11/2009)
  JC, Blake and I Drink Wine (my apartment): Amazing depth on the nose of caramel, apricots, and kerosene. Mouthfeel of this wine is outrageous - totally coating my palate. The tropical fruits explode here, with pineapple, guava, passion fruit, mango and banana intermixed with caramel and white chocolate notes. Extrdoinarily sweet, but with extreme finesse and balance. Stunning bottle. (93 pts.)

Posted from CellarTracker

[Frank Drew]

Well, I'm all for more Chenin love, but let's not throw the great white Burgundy baby out with the Chardonnay bathwater.

And, sadly, Loire Valley Chenin Blancs have not been immune to premature oxidation.

[Bernard Roth]

OK, Gary. Ignore the advice to like chenin blanc. You only need to follow your own palate. But why should critics and journalists stop advocating for the varietal because of your palate? If that is not your message, then what is your message? Just blowing off steam? That's kinda hard to respond to intelligently.

[Berry Crawford]

I'm trying to think of a Chenin Blanc I have not enjoyed

Question: Why do you think that if you don't like something it isn't good? I see a strong pattern. And why so negative all the time?

[jcoley3]

I guess as a wine person I am supposed to like something like this, the little grape, kind of an underdog.

For some reason, this reminds me of watching some trade people discuss an Alsatian Pinot Noir a few weeks ago. they all wanted to like it a lot more than they actually liked it.

[Dan Hammer]

Long Island? They do make some nice whites there, but I am not sure that even LI can make a respectable wine from Chenin.

Haven't you ever heard of an exception to the rule?

[Blake Brown]

Aside from the fine chenins from Loire, the best one I`ve had in the US comes from Santa Barbara`s Foxen Winery where Bill Wathen has been making chenin for 20 years plus and they are always very good and especially for the folks who do not like the varietal.

[Merrill Lindquist]

Here's my favorite... from Long Island. 2008 Paumanok Chenin Blanc CT 91

Me. too.

[David K o l i n]

Huet makes some of the most reasonably priced great wines in the entire world. Whether you like them or not does not change the facts.

Agreed. I'd flip it and say a great wine that's not too expensive. Goota get out more, Gary.

[Roberto Rogness]

Chalone used to make one that regularly beat their Chard in blind line-ups...

[Robert Pollard-Smith]

Gary, thanks for starting a very informative thread!

[Jim Brennan]

Gary:

Next time, perhaps you could give some examples of what wines you drank and why each was less than appealing.

[Blair Ridley]

In general?

I don't care. I have never seen a written note by you that was even the slightest bit positive about any wine.

Amen. I'm growing weary of this guy's posts too...

[Joe G a l e w s k i]

For some reason, this reminds me of watching some trade people discuss an Alsatian Pinot Noir a few weeks ago. they all wanted to like it a lot more than they actually liked it.

This is exactly the situation I was in a month ago. I love Alsatian whites, never had an Alsatian pinot noir, and I really wanted to like it, but there wasn't much to like about it.

[Bruce G]

Amen. I'm growing weary of this guy's posts too...

Let's vote him off the island!
Seriously, I just thought Gary's thread starter was the typical internet entree to discussion... half pontification, half provocation, full-on bombast.
Everyone's got their own way of expressing themselves.... no need for a hanging.

And he's right, by the way: Chenin blanc is a terrible, terrible grape. All those wines by Huet and Chidaine and Baumard and Nicolas and Sansonniere and Pithon and Puzelat and Cousin and Joly and... none of em worth a plug nickel. Nobody should be buying these wines.
You hear me out there? Stop buying these wines!
Now!
Please.

[Dan Hammer]

Maybe we should have a chenin blanc:

- offline
- virtual offline

[Andrew Christiansen]

Gary, thanks for starting a very informative thread!

Ironically, this thread reinforces my fondness for Chenin Blanc, and particularly Savennieres and Vouvray. I always appreciate information about new producers from this region.

[DCowell]

For some reason, this reminds me of watching some trade people discuss an Alsatian Pinot Noir a few weeks ago. they all wanted to like it a lot more than they actually liked it.

This is exactly the situation I was in a month ago. I love Alsatian whites, never had an Alsatian pinot noir, and I really wanted to like it, but there wasn't much to like about it.

One of the very few generalizations that is essentially valid in wine is that Alsatian Pinot Noir stinks.

[J a y C a i n]

As a general rule, if I'm out with my in laws and they want a white, I always look for a Vouvray. Unlike you, I rarely find a Vouvray that I DON'T enjoy. A couple of months ago I had a NV Huet sparkling Vouvray that was outstanding -- crisp, green apples. At $25 (or there abouts), a great bargain. If you were at my table when this was poured and made this Chenin Blanc must die pronouncement, I'd just move the bottle out of your reach and revel in your loss.

[Brad Kane]

And he's right, by the way: Chenin blanc is a terrible, terrible grape. All those wines by Huet and Chidaine and Baumard and Nicolas and Sansonniere and Pithon and Puzelat and Cousin and Joly and... none of em worth a plug nickel. Nobody should be buying these wines.
You hear me out there? Stop buying these wines!
Now!
Please.

You betcha!

[Jay Miller]

And he's right, by the way: Chenin blanc is a terrible, terrible grape. All those wines by Huet and Chidaine and Baumard and Nicolas and Sansonniere and Pithon and Puzelat and Cousin and Joly and... none of em worth a plug nickel. Nobody should be buying these wines.
You hear me out there? Stop buying these wines!
Now!
Please.

You betcha!

Quite so. I know I've done my bit to remove them from the marketplace

[dteng]

Hey Gary,
Have you tried Chidaine or Baumard?
I'd be interested to know what you don't like about Chenin Blanc.

I can already see Gary's version of hell...watching Kei Igawa and Carl Pavano pitch while drinking Burgundy and Chenin Blanc...

[Linda Baehr]

Chenin blanc is delicious.



That is all.

[todd waldmann]

Are there any wines you actually like?

[JMunro]

Coulee de Serrant

[Bernard Roth]

Hey Gary,
Have you tried Chidaine or Baumard?
I'd be interested to know what you don't like about Chenin Blanc.

He's not interested in advice. He's just blowing smoke.

[Gerhard P.]

...

Ironically, this thread reinforces my fondness for Chenin Blanc, and particularly Savennieres and Vouvray. I always appreciate information about new producers from this region.

The Loire Valley is a fine source for values in SPARKLING wines !!!

Especially from the AOC Saumur, but also from Crémant de Loire and Montlouis (also from Vouvray, but never had a sparkling) there are coming very nice refreshing bubbling wines full of character, exclusively or predominantly from Chenin blanc.

I usually buy one or two cases each year in France of this nice stuff, first tasting a bottle each and then stocking up from the best.

Price range usually is 6-9 Euro in France.... and the quality usually is better than the cheapest range of super-market Champagnes (12-14 €), but not better than the 2nd Champagne level of around 20 € ...

The stuff I´m currently drinking is
Le Grand Saumur 2006 Chaupin & Landais and
Saumur brut by Bouvet-Ladubay ..
but I´ve had several others in the past that certainly not worse.
All are made with methode traditionelle (2nd bottle fermentation).

No idea what´s available in the US and at which prices ... but if you are loooking for an everyday substitute for your top-Champagnes ... that´s a tip !

Gerhard

(PS: usually you should taste befor buying .... there are also several negociant bottlings of minor quality)

[Gary York]

Yes, I have tried Huet wines. OK I guess, but there are plenty of other wines I would rather drink. This thread kind of proves my point. It's like because I am in the trade and into wine I have to like these wines. I have tasted dozens of wine made from Chenin. And it has never made the cut. Weak, watery and kind of oxidized would be the TN. I am happy that all of you like them, and If I ever run into one worth buying I will let you know. Don't hold your breath.

[Eric LeVine]

Yes, I have tried Huet wines. OK I guess, but there are plenty of other wines I would rather drink. This thread kind of proves my point. It's like because I am in the trade and into wine I have to like these wines. I have tasted dozens of wine made from Chenin. And it has never made the cut. Weak, watery and kind of oxidized would be the TN. I am happy that all of you like them, and If I ever run into one worth buying I will let you know. Don't hold your breath.

A little free advice. Don't drink and post. Or maybe I am making a bad assumption that someone could only be this bitter about wine if they are totally stinking drunk. If you are posting this completely sober then you have a unique and special gift for expressing yourself. In fact I think you could likely formulate battery acid with your saliva since you are so bitter. I would avoid sucking those lemons in your spare time and also recommend that you try to use your special powers for good and not evil. It might be better for you to stick with wine that you enjoy.

Above all else, I home that no one pees in your Wheaties tomorrow. Have a better day.

[Gary York]

Unfortunately nothing to drink today.

[Jim Brennan]

I'm going to go drink a watery, oxidized Huet Moelleux 1er Trie Clos de Bourg now.