Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

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Victor Hong
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Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#1 Post by Victor Hong » May 13th, 2019, 4:42 am

Or am I becoming senile (or both)?
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#2 Post by Rob Weaver » May 13th, 2019, 6:20 am

Victor Hong wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 4:42 am
Or am I becoming senile (or both)?
I can’t speak to sparse, but if my “winning” bids at the most recent Zachys’s auction are any indication, I would say there are no deals out there.

After premium and tax:

2010 Leoville Poyferre $140
2010 Bouchard “Baby Jesus” $110
1989 Pichon Lalande $210
2012 Togni Cab $95
2014 Boillot Clos Mouchere Blanc $120
2009 Pichon Lalande $150
2014 Montrose $90
2005 Delas Hermitage Bessards $120
2003 Leoville Poyferre $120

I haven’t checked winesearcher but could likely have found them at around the same price.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#3 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 13th, 2019, 6:35 am

Rob Weaver wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 6:20 am
Victor Hong wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 4:42 am
Or am I becoming senile (or both)?
I can’t speak to sparse, but if my “winning” bids at the most recent Zachys’s auction are any indication, I would say there are no deals out there.

After premium and tax:

2010 Leoville Poyferre $140
2010 Bouchard “Baby Jesus” $110
1989 Pichon Lalande $210
2012 Togni Cab $95
2014 Boillot Clos Mouchere Blanc $120
2009 Pichon Lalande $150
2014 Montrose $90
2005 Delas Hermitage Bessards $120
2003 Leoville Poyferre $120

I haven’t checked winesearcher but could likely have found them at around the same price.
Several of those prices look to be 25% off Winesesrcher retail. Prices have been increasing so fast lately, including at retail, that it’s hard to keep track. I’ve never seen prices go up across the board as fast as they have in the last year — I wonder if it’s permanent or a bubble

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#4 Post by Andy Steinman » May 13th, 2019, 7:17 am

Definitely harder to find deals these days though recently picked up some Cathiard and Leflaive at decent (10% below CT low) prices.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#5 Post by NoahR » May 13th, 2019, 7:46 am

Only way to find deals is to for wines that don’t move (there are tons of bottles that have been sitting on spectrum or winebid for several months), the reserve prices are close to retail once you factor in premium...
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#6 Post by Josh Espinosa » May 13th, 2019, 8:27 am

I agree, there appears to be several auction houses that have increased their prices over the past few months and bottles continue to stay on the auction blocks month after month. Funny thing is several of the auction houses are off to their best start in months in terms of revenue haha

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#7 Post by DavidFrankil » May 13th, 2019, 8:28 am

I've noticed this generally but at Brentwood in particular - reserve prices seem to be set at or close to retail. Unless a particular wine is not available elsewhere, not worth the risk unless there is some meaningful discount.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#8 Post by R. Frankel » May 13th, 2019, 9:09 am

Auction offerings are certainly not sparse. In the US I'm seeing more breadth and depth come into market via auctions. Those with cellars of any size are seeing the market froth and selling. K&L is running 750 - 800 auctions a week, that seems very high. Zachy's is running more frequent in-person auctions in both NY and Hong Kong. Their online only "zCollections" have gone from being a few dozen interesting wines just a few years ago to 1500+ lots (several times a month!) like the most recent one. HDH, Acker, etc. are all running bigger auctions that run over more days more frequently. Volume is absolutely up.

Pricing and competition on the other hand are definitely up far more. The word is out on online auctions. The ease of access and the maturity of the Internet market has led to an explosion of demand. Supply is nowhere near catching up.

Sure, it's a bit sad, because deals are much harder to find. The really interesting thing will be what happens in the next recession. We all know our US economy is cyclical. There will be a recession some time in the next 5 or 10 years. Does the online auction market tank? My guess is that it will follow the path of all luxury goods markets and suffer but we'll see.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#9 Post by c fu » May 13th, 2019, 9:31 am

DavidFrankil wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 8:28 am
I've noticed this generally but at Brentwood in particular - reserve prices seem to be set at or close to retail. Unless a particular wine is not available elsewhere, not worth the risk unless there is some meaningful discount.
That's because Brentwood is basically another arm for Benchmark to sell their wine. When they weren't part of Benchmark there were some nice deals to be had.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#10 Post by Markus S » May 13th, 2019, 9:57 am

R. Frankel wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 9:09 am
.... There will be a recession some time in the next 5 or 10 years.
Look, an optimist! There'll be one coming earlier than that.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#11 Post by blarmston » May 13th, 2019, 10:42 am

The current recession is already here folks...

Leading economic indicators have been rolling over for several months, since late last year. Markets would've never V-bottomed if it weren't for the full bending over to the markets by Jerome and The Fed. Economic "green shoots" in China is a mirage, spurred short term by massive stimulus (8% of China's GDP in January alone). Sure, unemployment numbers are "best ever", but the true reading on that is more like 15% (don't believe the official # or else I would like to sell you a bridge in Brooklyn). This year to date performance is a last hurrah, designed to bring back in the retail dumb money (as institutions de-risk and a final blowout for corporate buybacks, who have been the ONLY marginal buyer of equities this year). The Fed and global central banks see what is coming, and they are SCARED SHITLESS.

Batten down the hatches, and head for cover, because whats to come will be brutal. Kinda like the dragon and Kings Landing last night...
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#12 Post by blarmston » May 13th, 2019, 10:44 am

And yes, I have seen an uptick on K&L auctions. Prices still inflated but come back in 6-12 months for a better entry point (on everything- wine and non wine related)
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#13 Post by GregT » May 13th, 2019, 11:10 am

Leading economic indicators have been rolling over for several months, since late last year. Markets would've never V-bottomed if it weren't for the full bending over to the markets by Jerome and The Fed. Economic "green shoots" in China is a mirage, spurred short term by massive stimulus (8% of China's GDP in January alone). Sure, unemployment numbers are "best ever", but the true reading on that is more like 15% (don't believe the official # or else I would like to sell you a bridge in Brooklyn). This year to date performance is a last hurrah, designed to bring back in the retail dumb money (as institutions de-risk and a final blowout for corporate buybacks, who have been the ONLY marginal buyer of equities this year). The Fed and global central banks see what is coming, and they are SCARED SHITLESS.
There are plenty of people who say the opposite.

And they use capitals too, because they're absolutely certain.

That has little to do with the OP though. Sure demand for luxury goods will increase/decrease with the economy, but the overall wine auction market seems to have been catching up with what people will actually pay. The only reason I would buy at auction would be to save 30-40 percent off the lowest retail I can find, or because something is so absolutely rare that it's not available anywhere. And in the latter case, I still lowball. If I can't do well, I'm not interested.

The risk isn't worth a savings of 20%. For other people that may not be the case. Anecdotally, people seem to be willing to pay close to retail. The auction houses are either getting smarter at pricing, or the buyers are getting stupider and are willing to pay retail prices at auctions.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#14 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » May 13th, 2019, 11:14 am

Part of the problem is auction houses competing. There are only so many competitive terms to be negotiated when trying to land a collection. If two auction houses are offering zero seller's premium, covering insurance, etc. then higher estimates becomes one of the only remaining points of competition. It's very compelling for a lot of sellers to choose the highest estimate. That strategy can backfire, obviously.

Then there is that sellers are getting more price aware and insistent. Anecdotally, I have heard there's a lot more push-back on estimates. Sellers won't sign contracts until they've approved the reserves, and they see prices on WineSearcher and elsewhere and think they should not have to sell below those levels.

Just a couple of additional factors among many, to be sure.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#15 Post by GregT » May 13th, 2019, 11:24 am

Part of the problem is auction houses competing. There are only so many competitive terms to be negotiated when trying to land a collection.
Good point! They're all over the place now.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#16 Post by Josh Grossman » May 13th, 2019, 1:02 pm

I've certainly not been finding as many deals in the last few months. K&L doesn't ship to my state though, even from auctions, so I'm a bit more limited.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#17 Post by Ethan Abraham » May 13th, 2019, 2:36 pm

This week's zachys online auction had 500 lots with no bid as of Friday before they lowered reserves on most of them. Lots of relatively recent burgundy. Found some decent deals outside of the "best" vintages (ie 10/15 red and 14 white).

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#18 Post by Sh@n A » May 13th, 2019, 2:40 pm

Have the NY auctions decreased in price by 10% to reflect sales tax?
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#19 Post by Mike J ewesson » May 13th, 2019, 2:46 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 2:40 pm
Have the NY auctions decreased in price by 10% to reflect sales tax?
I am adjusting my bids to take this into account. I thought prices were soft on the Acker online auction this weekend. The Zachy's Zauction that closed yesterday appeared to be a disaster based on a quick look three hours before closing [UPDATE: Turns out I was looking at a different auction that was closing at a later date....sorry]. I thought it was only 130 lots though. saw very few with bids.

I think the sales tax issue is really hurting sales. You have to add 32% on top of the hammer price for an Acker bid now. Winebid is now about 27% (before it was 17%). Seems like a bad time to be a seller right now.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#20 Post by DanielP » May 13th, 2019, 2:48 pm

I'm always shocked that people are willing to pay retail prices at auction... and sometimes for case lots too. Do these people know something that I don't?
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#21 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » May 13th, 2019, 3:02 pm

DanielP wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 2:48 pm
I'm always shocked that people are willing to pay retail prices at auction... and sometimes for case lots too. Do these people know something that I don't?
Yes

Convenience of purchases.

I'd much rather buy a full case or cases that have any age on them from an auction house than a retailer.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#22 Post by Tom Reddick » May 13th, 2019, 3:02 pm

It all depends on what one is buying.

Most CA Cabs are in the toilet right now. Eagle 2016 is holding reasonably well, but there is so much of it that keeps coming to auction that I wonder if it will not start to sink a bit.

High end burgundy is feeling some pressure. I actually turned down an offer of several bottles of 2016 Rouget Parantoux at $960 per because I do not think I would get a decent flip out of it- a year ago it would have been unthinkable to pass on an offer for that wine, but then again it would been offered at a much lower price too). Burgundy is a dangerous game right now with prices at insane levels and now the warning bell from Burghound on brett as the potential premox for red burgundies. The demand is there, but the audience at the top levels is very small making that demand very unstable and unevenly distributed.

Bordeaux is on fire- it got relatively cheap compared to CA and Burgundy and now with such a succession of great vintages, there is strong interest all across the board.

Germany is getting more attention in the auction market now as well, and Schaefer took a 20% jump on the first 2018 Kabinett he released. So things are moving upward in that world- driven heavily by growing interest in Asia in the traditional Pradikats from top producers. Both online and live auctions have a lot more German offerings than in the past overall.

Italy is very strong as well. Champagne doing good, but there is strong resistance to attempts at big price increases for 08s and library selections.

As a couple of people pointed out, the number and presence of online auctions has really soared. But it still cannot keep up fully with demand. And I am seeing demand from all fronts- not any particular country on an overall basis. I do think there are some bubbles out there- high end Burgundy in particular- but generally speaking I think the broader market is seeing a sustainable boost in demand. It will slow eventually, but I do not see prices for most things retreating significantly.


Final note- and this is not directed at anyone who has posted on this thread- but I have been having a lot of trouble lately with people who- to give a sort of generic example- want to buy Roumier for 20% less than auction, but ask near full winesearcher prices in selling their crappy CA Cabs. So take doomsday predictions with a grain of salt- a lot of times they are coming from people who are too wrapped up in finding themselves "bargains" versus bothering to consider the true state of the markets.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#23 Post by Mike J ewesson » May 13th, 2019, 3:28 pm

On the lower end (i.e., people who are not buying case quantities of Lafite), I think BDX is a bit soft. My unsubstantiated, unscientific theory based on past campaigns, is that people in this category are focused on buying the new hot vintage and saving their dry powder for that rather than buying recent vintage BDX. Picked up 2012 Tertre Rote at $900/case on Sunday, which I was shocked to win. Saw 2005 Clos St. Martin go for $850/case. 2010 La Conseillante go for $115/btl. 2010 Troplong go for $100/btl. (all pre-premium/pre-tax). You add the premium and the tax at 32% and things get a little more pricey, but if I were a seller, I would be extremely disappointed.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#24 Post by Victor Hong » May 13th, 2019, 3:36 pm

Tom Reddick wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 3:02 pm
It all depends on what one is buying.

Most CA Cabs are in the toilet right now................
Point me to any porcelain with the older, non-cult stuff.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#25 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum » May 13th, 2019, 4:24 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 2:40 pm
Have the NY auctions decreased in price by 10% to reflect sales tax?
No, the adjustments are coming on the buyers' side, as noted already.

Sellers are seriously considering venues other than the US for significant collections, though. It's even tougher choosing a venue for spirits, given taxes in Hong Kong. Selling in London has it's tax issues as well, complicated by Brexit uncertainty.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#26 Post by M. Meer » May 13th, 2019, 5:12 pm

Always deals to be had, lest the WineHunter has turned into the LabelHunter. [wow.gif]
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#27 Post by NoahR » May 13th, 2019, 5:19 pm

I think the “softness” of the Bordeaux resale market is real, especially as reports start surfacing that 82’ are getting to be past prime. 89, 90 are robust, but there are relative deals to be had elsewhere. It’s just that 2015/16 prices are so inflated that old stocks seem a deal by comparison.

In Burgundy there seem to be fairly few old wines being sold at auction for much less than the retail price of current vintages.

With sales tax added now, and shipping, and ever escalating premiums, the deals are rare.

Just bought 6x2010 Jadot Corton Pougets 1.5L for $1000 all in ($850 hammer), which is a great deal, IMHO but the only deal I got on the most recent Zachys.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#28 Post by Glen Gold » May 13th, 2019, 6:08 pm

Just got 2 X 2009 Taupenot-Merme Chambolle Musigny 1er cru Combe d'Orveau at Zachy's for $172 including the vig. That probbably doesn't mean much to most people but it looks like a deal to me because a) I haven't been in this game long and b) I do a lot of research. My dad, who was an obsessive collector of clocks and watches, says, "There's no substitute for information. Except money."
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#29 Post by P L owet » May 13th, 2019, 6:21 pm

NoahR wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 5:19 pm
In Burgundy there seem to be fairly few old wines being sold at auction for much less than the retail price of current vintages.
Why would you expect mature burgundy to cost less than the same wine from a current vintage (assuming comparable quality reputation)? That type of arbitrage always seems short-lived, even during steep price run-ups of new releases.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#30 Post by NoahR » May 13th, 2019, 6:29 pm

P L owet wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 6:21 pm
NoahR wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 5:19 pm
In Burgundy there seem to be fairly few old wines being sold at auction for much less than the retail price of current vintages.
Why would you expect mature burgundy to cost less than the same wine from a current vintage (assuming comparable quality reputation)? That type of arbitrage always seems short-lived, even during steep price run-ups of new releases.
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I’m not talking top year mature Burgundy (90,93,96,99,02,05,09,10, etc), I’m talking , 2004, 2007 and 2011 and 2013, years that inspire a collective “meh”. I would expect the good wines of those vintages to sell for a lot less than equivalent wines from 2012, 2015 and 2016, and the arbitrage seems nearly nonexistent.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#31 Post by Tom Reddick » May 13th, 2019, 8:53 pm

Victor Hong wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 3:36 pm
Tom Reddick wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 3:02 pm
It all depends on what one is buying.

Most CA Cabs are in the toilet right now................
Point me to any porcelain with the older, non-cult stuff.
Hence my use of the term "most". :) The good old days wines are as expensive as ever. Even Dunn has finally found some traction and is selling decently well.

I actually have been getting requests for 70s and 80s Cabs lately. Not many- but historically that is not something people asked for.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#32 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 13th, 2019, 9:07 pm

Prices for older wines from good vintages seem to be strong. This is where auctions have far better and more wines than most retailers.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#33 Post by jordan whitehead » May 14th, 2019, 1:09 am

SQN is softening. Ask Yaacov. Curious to see how Acker does with their auction on wednesday
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#34 Post by Markus S » May 14th, 2019, 4:59 am

Sh@n A wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 2:40 pm
Have the NY auctions decreased in price by 10% to reflect sales tax?
The NY tax is not 10%
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#35 Post by DavidFrankil » May 14th, 2019, 5:58 am

Markus S wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 4:59 am
Sh@n A wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 2:40 pm
Have the NY auctions decreased in price by 10% to reflect sales tax?
The NY tax is not 10%
From my invoice from Sunday's auction - NY tax is 6.625% - add in the 24% buyers premium and the total is 30.625% on top of hammer price.

Makes finding the wines with a sufficient risk premium discount to retail more challenging.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#36 Post by Jay Miller » May 14th, 2019, 6:08 am

There are occasional values but they seem few and far between these days (and definitely not in Burgundy).

For example someone did a huge Copain sell off on winebid recently with cases of good vintages and vineyards so those were priced very well.

But these days it's mostly a matter of only bidding if there's something I really want as opposed to seeing great values.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#37 Post by Rob Weaver » May 14th, 2019, 6:41 am

DavidFrankil wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 5:58 am
Markus S wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 4:59 am
Sh@n A wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 2:40 pm
Have the NY auctions decreased in price by 10% to reflect sales tax?
The NY tax is not 10%


Makes finding the wines with a sufficient risk premium discount to retail more challenging.
Maybe I have just been lucky, but the above statement doesn't reflect my experience. I prefer to buy older vintages through reputable auction houses rather than retail.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#38 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » May 14th, 2019, 6:54 am

DavidFrankil wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 5:58 am
Markus S wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 4:59 am
Sh@n A wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 2:40 pm
Have the NY auctions decreased in price by 10% to reflect sales tax?
The NY tax is not 10%
From my invoice from Sunday's auction - NY tax is 6.625% - add in the 24% buyers premium and the total is 30.625% on top of hammer price.

Makes finding the wines with a sufficient risk premium discount to retail more challenging.
6.625% is not NY sales tax, it is NJ sales tax which I assume is where your wines are shipped. Additionally, the sales tax is calculated based on the hammer price plus the buyer's premium. So, your total is not 30.625% on top of hammer, but 32.215%.

NYC sales tax is 8.875% (not quite 10%, but close) for an effective add-on of 35.005% assuming the buyer's premium is 24%.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#39 Post by jeff ostroff » May 14th, 2019, 7:13 am

The last Zachys internet auction was far from a disaster. Burgundy was 827 lots out of 1487 (55.5% in total). Total dollars was most likely well over 60%. The Burgundy reserves were very aggressive (low estimate) until Friday when the reserves on non selling wines were reduced by an increment. I already had bids in, but added another lot that had a reduced reserve (ended up losing). I won one lot in total and not a great price. 779 Burgundy lots sold out of 827 even with aggressive reserves. Most of what did not sell were recent vintages or next tier down's second/third vineyards. Recently royalty has been holding its own, but it is the under card that has seen its prices moving up. The last six months of 2018 you could still find deals on these wines and plenty of older stuff from the 90's and before. Now 2005 is old. Nothing is falling between the cracks.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#40 Post by DavidFrankil » May 14th, 2019, 7:37 am

R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 6:54 am
DavidFrankil wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 5:58 am
Markus S wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 4:59 am


The NY tax is not 10%
From my invoice from Sunday's auction - NY tax is 6.625% - add in the 24% buyers premium and the total is 30.625% on top of hammer price.

Makes finding the wines with a sufficient risk premium discount to retail more challenging.
6.625% is not NY sales tax, it is NJ sales tax which I assume is where your wines are shipped. Additionally, the sales tax is calculated based on the hammer price plus the buyer's premium. So, your total is not 30.625% on top of hammer, but 32.215%.

NYC sales tax is 8.875% (not quite 10%, but close) for an effective add-on of 35.005% assuming the buyer's premium is 24%.
I stand corrected - your math is accurate
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#41 Post by Jayson Cohen » May 14th, 2019, 12:40 pm

The sales tax at auction, plus relatively recent increases in buyer’s premium and expected shipping cost, are definitely factored into my calculus and have made me a little trigger shy compared to even a couple years ago.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#42 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 14th, 2019, 12:56 pm

I think that auctions still offer some savings compared to *current* retail, but because current retail has gone up so fast people feel instinctively that they are not getting a bargain. When I looked up the prices for some of the wines Rob Weaver posted above (see post #2), the 2003 Poyferre, 2009 Lalande, and 2014 Montrose were all 20-25% off the Winesearcher lows, and the Boillot Mouchere was 35% off. But they weren't lower than what the same wines would have been going for 6 to 9 months ago. Peoples' perceptions have not yet caught up with the dizzying price increase we're seeing in wines of all types right now.

Maybe we should have another thread about why fine wine prices in general are zooming. The increase seems quite wide spread and not just at the ultra-high end, there are a lot of $100-150 wines that now are going to $200-$300

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#43 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 14th, 2019, 1:08 pm

NoahR wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 5:19 pm
I think the “softness” of the Bordeaux resale market is real, especially as reports start surfacing that 82’ are getting to be past prime. 89, 90 are robust, but there are relative deals to be had elsewhere. It’s just that 2015/16 prices are so inflated that old stocks seem a deal by comparison.

In Burgundy there seem to be fairly few old wines being sold at auction for much less than the retail price of current vintages.

With sales tax added now, and shipping, and ever escalating premiums, the deals are rare.

Just bought 6x2010 Jadot Corton Pougets 1.5L for $1000 all in ($850 hammer), which is a great deal, IMHO but the only deal I got on the most recent Zachys.
That is a pretty good deal, equivalent of $83/bottle for a solid grand cru from a great year, which by today's standards is fantastic. But for some reason Corton has been somewhat resistant to the inflation trend for other grand crus.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#44 Post by NoahR » May 14th, 2019, 1:56 pm

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 1:08 pm
NoahR wrote:
May 13th, 2019, 5:19 pm
I think the “softness” of the Bordeaux resale market is real, especially as reports start surfacing that 82’ are getting to be past prime. 89, 90 are robust, but there are relative deals to be had elsewhere. It’s just that 2015/16 prices are so inflated that old stocks seem a deal by comparison.

In Burgundy there seem to be fairly few old wines being sold at auction for much less than the retail price of current vintages.

With sales tax added now, and shipping, and ever escalating premiums, the deals are rare.

Just bought 6x2010 Jadot Corton Pougets 1.5L for $1000 all in ($850 hammer), which is a great deal, IMHO but the only deal I got on the most recent Zachys.
That is a pretty good deal, equivalent of $83/bottle for a solid grand cru from a great year, which by today's standards is fantastic. But for some reason Corton has been somewhat resistant to the inflation trend for other grand crus.
A topic for another thread, perhaps, but I have had great bottles of Corton and find it often better than some other, similarly burly GC like Bonnes Mares. And it's a bargain, and it's maybe even less of a crapshoot than Clos Vougeot and a less expensive crapshoot than Echezeaux...
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#45 Post by RyanC » May 14th, 2019, 2:03 pm

As someone may have mentioned above, these days it's really hard to casually keep track of "market" pricing of trendy, highly allocated wines -- particularly in Burgundy and N. Rhone (and sort of Piedmont and Champagne). With wines like Raveneau, Allemand, Cathiard, Rayas etc. it can be challenging (at least for me) to know on a day-to-day basis whether you're getting a steal or getting ripped off. I feel like I used to have a pretty good intuitive sense of what these wines were selling for. But now you blink and the price has gone up 30%. This dynamic environment also makes it possible to occasionally find real steals where retailers or auctioneers (more often retailers) haven't quite caught up to the market.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#46 Post by L e o F r o k i c » May 15th, 2019, 8:53 am

NoahR wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 1:56 pm
A topic for another thread, perhaps, but I have had great bottles of Corton and find it often better than some other, similarly burly GC like Bonnes Mares. And it's a bargain, and it's maybe even less of a crapshoot than Clos Vougeot and a less expensive crapshoot than Echezeaux...
Agree with you about Corton but they usually need a lot of time in a bottle to be ready in most vintages. 2010's are drinking well now due to berries not having seeds.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#47 Post by Vince T » May 15th, 2019, 10:21 am

K&L actually has a useful tool that shows historical auction prices of wines on their site:
https://www.klwines.com/Auction/Informa ... sList.aspx

Obviously, there's going to be variance and some people will get better deals than others. But you can see (for example) Allemand Reynard used to go for $107-$126 / bottle in 2015-2016, and has been going for $175-200+ / bottle in 2018-2019. That's for a low supply wine.

For a high supply wine like '01 Yquem... back in 2011-2014, it was going for $350-400 per 375ml, and the market has softened in 2018... with the average bottle going for $275-315 per.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#48 Post by Tom Reddick » May 15th, 2019, 7:22 pm

jordan whitehead wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 1:09 am
SQN is softening. Ask Yaacov. Curious to see how Acker does with their auction on wednesday
I was on duty during the day, so only peeked in a couple of times for the early session when I wanted to bid, but saw a couple of good stretches as it went into the evening. I cannot speak to many specifics, but the times I was watching only one lot went unsold, many went within estimate range (low estimate is usually 1-2 increments above reserve) and a few things went above estimate.

Things moved very fast- and I did not have a fun time trying to keep up online. Only had one win- most here would not call it a bargain, but given where prices are headed I was very happy about it.

I did not notice any particular weakness, but the sheer volume of Screaming Eagle was something I watched because there is a ton of the stuff being sold lately. $6,000 was the magic number today for most 3 packs- that is where the 2016 held, and even some older vintages. A 2007 case went at $9K while 06 and 08 and 09 went for $6K , and 2015 did $6,500 a couple of times. One lucky buyer got a box of 2016 for $5k. Given the fact there were 34 lots of Eagle, with 13 of them cases of 2016, pricing held up pretty well.

Interest and results seemed pretty strong across the board to me- with some extra love for magnums. Big bottles tended to do well today.
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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#49 Post by Brian Thorne » May 15th, 2019, 8:38 pm

RyanC wrote:
May 14th, 2019, 2:03 pm
As someone may have mentioned above, these days it's really hard to casually keep track of "market" pricing of trendy, highly allocated wines -- particularly in Burgundy and N. Rhone (and sort of Piedmont and Champagne). With wines like Raveneau, Allemand, Cathiard, Rayas etc. it can be challenging (at least for me) to know on a day-to-day basis whether you're getting a steal or getting ripped off. I feel like I used to have a pretty good intuitive sense of what these wines were selling for. But now you blink and the price has gone up 30%. This dynamic environment also makes it possible to occasionally find real steals where retailers or auctioneers (more often retailers) haven't quite caught up to the market.
I’ve found https://www.winemarketjournal.com to be an invaluable resource. It’s a bit pricey at $200, but it’s a pretty useful tool in terms of identifying potential deals, trends etc. If you’re an active buyer or seller I highly recommend it.

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Re: Online wine auction offerings becoming sparse and pricey?

#50 Post by Pat Martin » May 17th, 2019, 11:02 pm

Prices at auction are nuts, but I feel like we’ve been saying that since forever.
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