Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

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Brandon R
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Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#1 Post by Brandon R » April 16th, 2019, 3:02 pm

In a post over on the CT forums, someone re-posted a TN on a well-respected California Bordeaux-style blend (2012 Insignia). The original TN author was clearly not a fan of the wine and, among other things wrote, "I can't for the life of me understand how anybody could be willing to part with 250€ for a gloopy monster wine like this." Now, my point isn't to bring any attention to this particular TN author at all. This TN, however, is so similar to so many I see here (TNs and mentions in discussion) and on other wine forums. It happens all the time: tasters who clearly prefer Old World wines take the time to make it clear how much they dislike a particular well-known California Cab or blend.

Sure, we can all pile on a bag on a clearly over-the-top wine like an out-of-balance, high RS, fake oak mess and agree. There seems to be joy to be found by some, though, in being heavily critical (and going out of the way to be so) of many widely-regarded and well-made new world wines.

My question is why don't we see the same level of disgust in reverse? Why don't more New World-palate-leaning folks take the time to bash classified growth Bordeaux in the same manner as the above? Where is the, "Why would anyone fork over $500 for this thin, watery, green, under-fruited, tannic..." that would seem to be as plentiful as the opposite? Sure, there are the cute tongue-in-cheek quips here about weedy Loire Cab Francs, but there have got to be people out there who detest Old World wines. Why don't they go to the same lengths to pontificate publicly?

For what it's worth, I love new world wines and I love old world wines just the same.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#2 Post by Alan Eden » April 16th, 2019, 3:10 pm

You obviously have not seen some of the burg knocking that goes on, watery over priced piss water
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#3 Post by Scott Brunson » April 16th, 2019, 3:16 pm

Alan Eden wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 3:10 pm
You obviously have not seen some of the burg knocking that goes on, watery over priced piss water
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#4 Post by Todd F r e n c h » April 16th, 2019, 3:25 pm

Brandon R wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 3:02 pm
In a post over on the CT forums, someone re-posted a TN on a well-respected California Bordeaux-style blend (2012 Insignia). The original TN author was clearly not a fan of the wine and, among other things wrote, "I can't for the life of me understand how anybody could be willing to part with 250€ for a gloopy monster wine like this." Now, my point isn't to bring any attention to this particular TN author at all. This TN, however, is so similar to so many I see here (TNs and mentions in discussion) and on other wine forums. It happens all the time: tasters who clearly prefer Old World wines take the time to make it clear how much they dislike a particular well-known California Cab or blend.

Sure, we can all pile on a bag on a clearly over-the-top wine like an out-of-balance, high RS, fake oak mess and agree. There seems to be joy to be found by some, though, in being heavily critical (and going out of the way to be so) of many widely-regarded and well-made new world wines.

My question is why don't we see the same level of disgust in reverse? Why don't more New World-palate-leaning folks take the time to bash classified growth Bordeaux in the same manner as the above? Where is the, "Why would anyone fork over $500 for this thin, watery, green, under-fruited, tannic..." that would seem to be as plentiful as the opposite? Sure, there are the cute tongue-in-cheek quips here about weedy Loire Cab Francs, but there have got to be people out there who detest Old World wines. Why don't they go to the same lengths to pontificate publicly?

For what it's worth, I love new world wines and I love old world wines just the same.
My wife does plenty of complaining about 'Old World' wine styles for everyone, trust me. She calls it 'poop and dirt'.

I think those who favor Old World styles are typically more 'geeky' than those who favor New World, and, as such, have a tendency to complain more loudly about the 'gloop', as they feign offense to it.

Good query, though - don't recall this ever being discussed previously.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#5 Post by Wes Barton » April 16th, 2019, 3:27 pm

Some wines are "controversial", while others aren't. Can you identify any highly rated $500 thin, watery, green, under-fruited, tannic wines? Is there hype for any specific wines like that? Hype up wines that many find revolting, them shove them in those peoples' faces over and over, and you might get some unrestrained opinions. You may get a different reaction from someone tasting a revolting $500 wine than with an equally revolting $3 Trader Joe's wine. If some critic score convinced *you* to spend $500 on the bestest wine evarrr from the vintage of the centuriest vintage yet, and you found it digusting, you might express an opinion with a fair degree of outrage.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#6 Post by Howard Cooper » April 16th, 2019, 3:39 pm

Brandon R wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 3:02 pm
In a post over on the CT forums, someone re-posted a TN on a well-respected California Bordeaux-style blend (2012 Insignia). The original TN author was clearly not a fan of the wine and, among other things wrote, "I can't for the life of me understand how anybody could be willing to part with 250€ for a gloopy monster wine like this." Now, my point isn't to bring any attention to this particular TN author at all. This TN, however, is so similar to so many I see here (TNs and mentions in discussion) and on other wine forums. It happens all the time: tasters who clearly prefer Old World wines take the time to make it clear how much they dislike a particular well-known California Cab or blend.

Sure, we can all pile on a bag on a clearly over-the-top wine like an out-of-balance, high RS, fake oak mess and agree. There seems to be joy to be found by some, though, in being heavily critical (and going out of the way to be so) of many widely-regarded and well-made new world wines.

My question is why don't we see the same level of disgust in reverse? Why don't more New World-palate-leaning folks take the time to bash classified growth Bordeaux in the same manner as the above? Where is the, "Why would anyone fork over $500 for this thin, watery, green, under-fruited, tannic..." that would seem to be as plentiful as the opposite? Sure, there are the cute tongue-in-cheek quips here about weedy Loire Cab Francs, but there have got to be people out there who detest Old World wines. Why don't they go to the same lengths to pontificate publicly?

For what it's worth, I love new world wines and I love old world wines just the same.
[rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] I guess you don't read this board much.

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Review the posts of Nathan Smyth in viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16493&p=215834&hili ... dy#p215834 or virtually any other thread.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#7 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 16th, 2019, 5:25 pm

Brandon R wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 3:02 pm

Sure, we can all pile on a bag on a clearly over-the-top wine like an out-of-balance, high RS, fake oak mess and agree. There seems to be joy to be found by some, though, in being heavily critical (and going out of the way to be so) of many widely-regarded and well-made new world wines.

My question is why don't we see the same level of disgust in reverse? Why don't more New World-palate-leaning folks take the time to bash classified growth Bordeaux in the same manner as the above? Where is the, "Why would anyone fork over $500 for this thin, watery, green, under-fruited, tannic..." that would seem to be as plentiful as the opposite? Sure, there are the cute tongue-in-cheek quips here about weedy Loire Cab Francs, but there have got to be people out there who detest Old World wines. Why don't they go to the same lengths to pontificate publicly?
I would posit - generally speaking, of course - because classic never goes out of style.

A timely analogy: Compare Notre Dame to the Pompidou.

I have never heard anyone say Notre Dame is disgusting. I have heard many people say the Pompidou is disgusting. But it also has fans. I had a few architecture professors that hated it, and one that loved it.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#8 Post by Markus S » April 16th, 2019, 5:33 pm

Because hate is a powerful thing, and one of the only things spewed forth in this day and age of the internet. :-o
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#9 Post by Anton D » April 16th, 2019, 5:51 pm

Wasn't Parker the wine world's preeminent fruit-bomb glop-lover who coined the phrase "anti-flavor wine elite" about people who like to "old world" style better?
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#10 Post by Philip G » April 16th, 2019, 5:54 pm

Markus S wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 5:33 pm
Because hate is a powerful thing, and one of the only things spewed forth in this day and age of the internet. :-o
Yes! And people with different opinions, or preferences than our own must be idiots, or classless, or...
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#11 Post by brodie thomson » April 16th, 2019, 7:55 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 5:25 pm
Brandon R wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 3:02 pm

Sure, we can all pile on a bag on a clearly over-the-top wine like an out-of-balance, high RS, fake oak mess and agree. There seems to be joy to be found by some, though, in being heavily critical (and going out of the way to be so) of many widely-regarded and well-made new world wines.

My question is why don't we see the same level of disgust in reverse? Why don't more New World-palate-leaning folks take the time to bash classified growth Bordeaux in the same manner as the above? Where is the, "Why would anyone fork over $500 for this thin, watery, green, under-fruited, tannic..." that would seem to be as plentiful as the opposite? Sure, there are the cute tongue-in-cheek quips here about weedy Loire Cab Francs, but there have got to be people out there who detest Old World wines. Why don't they go to the same lengths to pontificate publicly?
I would posit - generally speaking, of course - because classic never goes out of style.
I think this is definitely a significant factor. The higher end of the old world wine world has established their style and their identity over decades/centuries. There is a global appreciation and recognition for these wines. Many are priced accordingly.

In comparison many high end (and higher priced) new world wines have a much shorter track record and their popularity is often limited (mostly but not entirely) to their country of origin.

To give a local example here in NZ: The very top local Syrahs sell here for the same price as Jamet and Clape ($120) and about double the price of Gonon ($60) and about half the price of Chave ($250). They are good and serious wines but I seriously doubt there is much of a market outside NZ for these wines. I reckon the same applies in California, Australia etc etc

In my mind the asymmetry the OP is referring to arises from situations like this. Well made new world wines (but perhaps lacking a bit of soul or some sense of individuality) that are priced against old world classics with much longer track record and much greater global market recognition. This opens them up for criticism in my mind. Not saying it is all deserved just I can see why it happens

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#12 Post by Carlos Delpin » April 16th, 2019, 8:35 pm

Even though I am a confessed Francophile my disgust with goop from California is measured only against California of old. Why can’t they make anymore the wines they were making before 2002? Napa from the 70’s and 80’s are some of the most profound wine experiences I’ve ever had. The goop is just caricature.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#13 Post by Mattstolz » April 16th, 2019, 8:48 pm

Carlos Delpin wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 8:35 pm
Even though I am a confessed Francophile my disgust with goop from California is measured only against California of old. Why can’t they make anymore the wines they were making before 2002? Napa from the 70’s and 80’s are some of the most profound wine experiences I’ve ever had. The goop is just caricature.
I think this is a big piece of it.

I also think its an availability thing. people who like cult Napa cabs but would hate old world wines, in my experience, don't find themselves in the Burgundy section nearly as much. an old world lover tends to be a little more exploratory, and will grab a cali one sometimes just to make sure they still don't love them.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#14 Post by Wes Barton » April 16th, 2019, 8:51 pm

Carlos Delpin wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 8:35 pm
Even though I am a confessed Francophile my disgust with goop from California is measured only against California of old. Why can’t they make anymore the wines they were making before 2002? Napa from the 70’s and 80’s are some of the most profound wine experiences I’ve ever had. The goop is just caricature.
They do, but those wines don't get the ratings, so they don't get the attention, can't command the same sort of prices, don't get the distribution. That's changing, since the Parker-Laube strangle hold on California wine criticism-led influence has faded.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#15 Post by Carlos Delpin » April 16th, 2019, 9:02 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 8:51 pm
Carlos Delpin wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 8:35 pm
Even though I am a confessed Francophile my disgust with goop from California is measured only against California of old. Why can’t they make anymore the wines they were making before 2002? Napa from the 70’s and 80’s are some of the most profound wine experiences I’ve ever had. The goop is just caricature.
They do, but those wines don't get the ratings, so they don't get the attention, can't command the same sort of prices, don't get the distribution. That's changing, since the Parker-Laube strangle hold on California wine criticism-led influence has faded.
Wes, I would l9ve to hear your opinion on these producers. Please post or PM. Thanks!

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#16 Post by GregT » April 16th, 2019, 9:25 pm

I don't think the premise is totally valid but it does seem that there are a lot of people on this board who simply started out liking wine, perhaps US wine, maybe not, and then they learned that there were wines they were supposed to like and others they were not supposed to like. So like many converts, they proselytize more than the people who simply grew up with it.

I know a number of people who, having been interested in wine for maybe two or three years and having had mostly US wines, heard that they were supposed to like Burgundy/Bordeaux/Barolo and just went nuts for it. Who knows, some may have actually grown to like those wines.

And then, having left behind something they liked, they need to disown their prior love entirely.

No reason not to like many types of wine.

Unless you're independently wealthy, you probably make wine to sell, not to realize some non-commercial artistic vision. And if you sell a little bit more when it's a little bit riper, a little bit cleaner, a little bit more stable, the wise move would probably be to make wine that way. That offends people who got to like what you were doing before, and even more than those folks, it offends people who think they would have liked what they think you might have been doing before.

Then they post about it.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#17 Post by James Billy » April 16th, 2019, 11:01 pm

brodie thomson wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 7:55 pm
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 5:25 pm
Brandon R wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 3:02 pm

Sure, we can all pile on a bag on a clearly over-the-top wine like an out-of-balance, high RS, fake oak mess and agree. There seems to be joy to be found by some, though, in being heavily critical (and going out of the way to be so) of many widely-regarded and well-made new world wines.

My question is why don't we see the same level of disgust in reverse? Why don't more New World-palate-leaning folks take the time to bash classified growth Bordeaux in the same manner as the above? Where is the, "Why would anyone fork over $500 for this thin, watery, green, under-fruited, tannic..." that would seem to be as plentiful as the opposite? Sure, there are the cute tongue-in-cheek quips here about weedy Loire Cab Francs, but there have got to be people out there who detest Old World wines. Why don't they go to the same lengths to pontificate publicly?
I would posit - generally speaking, of course - because classic never goes out of style.
I think this is definitely a significant factor. The higher end of the old world wine world has established their style and their identity over decades/centuries. There is a global appreciation and recognition for these wines. Many are priced accordingly.

In comparison many high end (and higher priced) new world wines have a much shorter track record and their popularity is often limited (mostly but not entirely) to their country of origin.

To give a local example here in NZ: The very top local Syrahs sell here for the same price as Jamet and Clape ($120) and about double the price of Gonon ($60) and about half the price of Chave ($250). They are good and serious wines but I seriously doubt there is much of a market outside NZ for these wines. I reckon the same applies in California, Australia etc etc

In my mind the asymmetry the OP is referring to arises from situations like this. Well made new world wines (but perhaps lacking a bit of soul or some sense of individuality) that are priced against old world classics with much longer track record and much greater global market recognition. This opens them up for criticism in my mind. Not saying it is all deserved just I can see why it happens

Brodie
Great post, Brodie. I dare you to say that to the winemakers of these 'luxury icon' NW wines. champagne.gif

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#18 Post by Otto Forsberg » April 17th, 2019, 3:15 am

I've been bashing super-modern, over-oaked monster wines for some 9 years in CT now, but it took me some 8000 TNs to write a piece so controversial that it actually upset people enough for them to re-post/discuss it on not only one but on two forums! pileon Funny though, because I didn't feel that this particular TN was out of line from my normal writing style in any way.

Is Insignia such a sacred cow that one can't openly criticize it? [tease.gif]
GregT wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 9:25 pm
I don't think the premise is totally valid but it does seem that there are a lot of people on this board who simply started out liking wine, perhaps US wine, maybe not, and then they learned that there were wines they were supposed to like and others they were not supposed to like. So like many converts, they proselytize more than the people who simply grew up with it.

I know a number of people who, having been interested in wine for maybe two or three years and having had mostly US wines, heard that they were supposed to like Burgundy/Bordeaux/Barolo and just went nuts for it. Who knows, some may have actually grown to like those wines.

And then, having left behind something they liked, they need to disown their prior love entirely.
Fortunately this was not the case this time. I've never liked sweet, heavily oaked and over-extracted fruit bombs to begin with.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#19 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 17th, 2019, 4:00 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 3:15 am
I've been bashing super-modern, over-oaked monster wines for some 9 years in CT now, but it took me some 8000 TNs to write a piece so controversial that it actually upset people enough for them to re-post/discuss it on not only one but on two forums! pileon Funny though, because I didn't feel that this particular TN was out of line from my normal writing style in any way.

Is Insignia such a sacred cow that one can't openly criticize it? [tease.gif]

Insignia is an excellent example for this discussion. It changed in the early 1990s from a great and interesting wine, to a modern Napa wine, which I disliked intensely. We haven’t changed, the wines did.

As for the invective, it is about the wines themselves, and should never be about the people who drink them. I have friends, poor devils, who like California moderns. I find that there are wines in common that we can drink together, usually from the Rhone.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#20 Post by T. Williams » April 17th, 2019, 4:05 am

Maybe I am not discerning enough, but why can’t people enjoy old and new world? Some nights I want a lean, mean, green wine and other nights I want glorified grape juice.

I guess every hobby or interest has similar to dividing lines, but like GregT said above, I think the hatred of new world is a learned attribute. People cast off new world overripe wines because that’s what a “wine snob” is supposed to do. In fact I’ve actually met people who are into wine and really do like fruit bombs but force themselves to drink wines that they find less enjoyable because it’s the correct progression of their palate.

Otto I applaud the fact that you owned that the tasting note was yours! The above ramblings are in no way directed toward you, but just me ruminating on the broader wine community. And yes, I do think that Insignia is a sacred cow. Ever drive a classic car and feel like the suspension was terrible and power terrible? But when you tell people that driving car X kind of sucks you get stoned in the town square. That’s where Insignia stands, right next to a 1963 split window corvette.

**full disclosure - I have a case of Insignia in my cellar.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#21 Post by Otto Forsberg » April 17th, 2019, 4:34 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 4:00 am
As for the invective, it is about the wines themselves, and should never be about the people who drink them. I have friends, poor devils, who like California moderns. I find that there are wines in common that we can drink together, usually from the Rhone.
My original point in the tasting note was much less to bash the people buying those wines and more to criticize how ridiculously expensive the wines are - one can buy a similarly overdone blueberry milkshake from Chile at $30-40 and I'd still find the wine overpriced for the quality, but I wouldn't be astounded why people would be paying such sums for such a wine. However, if there are wines to be had at the fraction of the price, I just don't understand why people are willing to pay hundreds of buck for the same stuff. One can't criticize the overpricing of the cult wines and a good scrub always hurts some.
T. Williams wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 4:05 am
Maybe I am not discerning enough, but why can’t people enjoy old and new world? Some nights I want a lean, mean, green wine and other nights I want glorified grape juice.

I guess every hobby or interest has similar to dividing lines, but like GregT said above, I think the hatred of new world is a learned attribute. People cast off new world overripe wines because that’s what a “wine snob” is supposed to do. In fact I’ve actually met people who are into wine and really do like fruit bombs but force themselves to drink wines that they find less enjoyable because it’s the correct progression of their palate.
I can speak only for myself but I certainly don't hate new world. There are tons of astounding new world wines that I love. There are also lots of very modern, ripe and fruity wines I've written positive TNs in CTs. I just value finesse, balance and sense of place in wines and I'm not afraid to write sharply in my TNs when a wine matches with my tastes and when it doesn't. I've also written equally seething reviews on lean, mean wines that feel more like chewing through leaves and green willow bark than drinking wine.

(I also think a little exaggeration only helps if one wants to stand out from the crowd in CT and other similar platforms.) [snort.gif]

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#22 Post by Otto Forsberg » April 17th, 2019, 4:36 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 4:00 am
Insignia is an excellent example for this discussion. It changed in the early 1990s from a great and interesting wine, to a modern Napa wine, which I disliked intensely. We haven’t changed, the wines did.
Sounds like I need to get to taste some +25-yo Insignia then.

I guess easier said than done.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#23 Post by David Glasser » April 17th, 2019, 5:05 am

Most (not all) of the modern-bashing posters here don’t come across as snobby to me. For fans of classic, it’s frustrating to experience a producer changing style from one you like to one you don’t like. That might contribute to the tone of some posts. It’s probably most frustrating for the "pickiest eaters" among us with the narrowest palate preferences.

Most of classic-bashing around here doesn’t seem that snobby either. For the most part, the basher-in-chief seems to enjoy provoking the classicists, though some of his posts seem to have mellowed a little.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#24 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » April 17th, 2019, 5:15 am

David Glasser wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 5:05 am
For fans of classic, it’s frustrating to experience a producer changing style from one you like to one you don’t like. That might contribute to the tone of some posts. It’s probably most frustrating for the "pickiest eaters" among us with the narrowest palate preferences.
This, too.

Experienced this last night, with yet another old fave that has gone to the dark side and is no longer palatable for me.
Last edited by Robert.A.Jr. on April 17th, 2019, 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#25 Post by Kirk.Grant » April 17th, 2019, 5:15 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 4:36 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 4:00 am
Insignia is an excellent example for this discussion. It changed in the early 1990s from a great and interesting wine, to a modern Napa wine, which I disliked intensely. We haven’t changed, the wines did.
Sounds like I need to get to taste some +25-yo Insignia then.

I guess easier said than done.
Search out the '95 if you can. It's been some years, but I remember being surprised with how restrained the wine was the last time I had it.

As to the OP's belief that this is not a two-way street...I'd disagree. I think it's unfortunate but it sure seems that we're (America) shifting from a culture of tolerance and acceptance to a very polarized view on everything. As our culture seems to be moving toward a more binary view of good/bad verses seeing things on a spectrum or in a range it seems like it is harder and harder to find people that can tolerate opposing views.

I've found few wine-lovers that can accept or appreciate the full range of the spectrum. Even in regions there are divisions; just look at Barolo and how some traditionalists and modernists "would not acknowledge one another in the past". Wine is about passion...to me it does make some sense that when people are this passionate about something that there would be strong thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. It's just too bad that people can't acknowledge the value of the full spectrum and leave it at, "That's not my preference".
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#26 Post by Mark Golodetz » April 17th, 2019, 5:26 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 4:36 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 4:00 am
Insignia is an excellent example for this discussion. It changed in the early 1990s from a great and interesting wine, to a modern Napa wine, which I disliked intensely. We haven’t changed, the wines did.
Sounds like I need to get to taste some +25-yo Insignia then.

I guess easier said than done.
I think you need to get hold of 1985 to really get a top Insignia. 1991 is beginning to spoofalate, but the rot really sets in with 1994. For me 1995 is better than 1994, but not one of the great Insignias. IMHO of course
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#28 Post by Pat Martin » April 17th, 2019, 7:41 am

David Glasser wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 5:05 am
Most (not all) of the modern-bashing posters here don’t come across as snobby to me. For fans of classic, it’s frustrating to experience a producer changing style from one you like to one you don’t like. That might contribute to the tone of some posts. It’s probably most frustrating for the "pickiest eaters" among us with the narrowest palate preferences.
That’s my perception as well. Modern styled wines have been on the ascent across the globe for at least 20 years and many once beloved, old-school producers in the old world have changed styles. Rightly or wrongly, this creates the idea that the old world is under siege.

I thought Parker’s retirement would help reverse this trend, but I haven’t seen that (yet).
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#29 Post by David Glasser » April 17th, 2019, 8:09 am

Pat Martin wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 7:41 am
David Glasser wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 5:05 am
Most (not all) of the modern-bashing posters here don’t come across as snobby to me. For fans of classic, it’s frustrating to experience a producer changing style from one you like to one you don’t like. That might contribute to the tone of some posts. It’s probably most frustrating for the "pickiest eaters" among us with the narrowest palate preferences.
That’s my perception as well. Modern styled wines have been on the ascent across the globe for at least 20 years and many once beloved, old-school producers in the old world have changed styles. Rightly or wrongly, this creates the idea that the old world is under siege.

I thought Parker’s retirement would help reverse this trend, but I haven’t seen that (yet).
I haven’t experienced it yet either, Pat, but occasionally we’ll see a comment here that some Bordeaux or Chateauneuf producer has dialed back the oak and ripeness in recent years. We should have a list, like Pat Burton's Italian list of modern vs. classic.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#30 Post by Michae1 P0wers » April 17th, 2019, 8:23 am

GregT wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 9:25 pm
I don't think the premise is totally valid but it does seem that there are a lot of people on this board who simply started out liking wine, perhaps US wine, maybe not, and then they learned that there were wines they were supposed to like and others they were not supposed to like. So like many converts, they proselytize more than the people who simply grew up with it.

I know a number of people who, having been interested in wine for maybe two or three years and having had mostly US wines, heard that they were supposed to like Burgundy/Bordeaux/Barolo and just went nuts for it. Who knows, some may have actually grown to like those wines.

And then, having left behind something they liked, they need to disown their prior love entirely.
It strikes me as extremely cynical and condescending to assume people drink the wine they drink because they "learned they were supposed to." Many people talk about their tastes changing over the years, and I've no reason to assume this isn't based on well, their palates actually changing over the years. I don't think it's really all roads lead to Burgundy either, just changes in tastes over time, changes in winemaking within regions over time, and the desire to explore new things drive changes in drinking preferences. Who is telling these people that they have to love old world wines? What about all the experts saying that two dozen Napa cabs each vintage are literally perfect, or that cool climate California regions now do everything that the old world does only better? Maybe I'm being naive, but I assume people drink what they like rather than what they're supposed to like.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#31 Post by Neal.Mollen » April 17th, 2019, 8:35 am

Philip G wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 5:54 pm
Markus S wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 5:33 pm
Because hate is a powerful thing, and one of the only things spewed forth in this day and age of the internet. :-o
Yes! And people with different opinions, or preferences than our own must be idiots, or classless, or...
This is not true! Usually, people who have opinions or preferences different from mine are both idiots and classless.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#32 Post by Scott G r u n e r » April 17th, 2019, 8:36 am

new world palates are simply old world palates still in larval stage. [stirthepothal.gif]

Clearly there is room for both, and I have seen fervency on both sides. If there is more fervency on the old-world side, I wonder if it stems from the contingent of the "old world" crowd that cut their teeth on the "new world" wines and becoming a bit more evangelical and born-again. Maybe I am blind to it, but I rarely see people turn the other direction?

Personally I would rather drink "green and watery" wine than than Charred Ooze that fatigues my palate after 2 sips.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#33 Post by Jason T » April 17th, 2019, 9:06 am

Is it just me or is that font unnecessarily hard to read? See, even their font is spoofilated!
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#34 Post by David Glasser » April 17th, 2019, 9:15 am

Scott, I’ve known a few older people who shifted Old World to New World. They’ve said they need more oomph in their wines as their sense of smell and taste become less sensitive with age. It’s usually the other way around for newcomers.

In my case the shift has been accompanied by an expansion of preferences. I’ve gained more on the Old World side than I’ve lost on the New World side.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#35 Post by Brandon R » April 17th, 2019, 9:52 am

Very interesting point that several above have made that I hadn't considered: old world wines, by and large, haven't changed (stylistically speaking) and their wines are much like they've been for decades or longer. New world wineries, in many cases, have gone through a stylistic metamorphosis, arguably, to pander to high scores and the prices that they can command as a result. I can see someone who enjoy CA Cab of the 70s and 80s being very vocal about their distaste for the "newer" version. Someone who has long been drinking Bordeaux hasn't likely seen the same shift and, hence, less vitriol. (I know, I know, we have the modernized Bordeaux Chateau argument...but let's leave that to threads dedicated to that).

Tangentially, I also seem to see less polarization with regard to wines made with Rhone varieties. The above and my OP seem most applicable to Cab/Bordeaux-variety wines and certainly Pinot Noir. I wonder why?
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#36 Post by Gabe Berk » April 17th, 2019, 9:53 am

There is a reason Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors. People who bash one another Old World vs. New World are missing out on the huge diversity of flavors and textures from around the world they otherwise may come to find they actually like. If a fence has been made, it often is hard to break if an open mind is lost...

RS, heavy oak, fruit bombs to retrained, high acid, tertiary flavor; they're all welcome to me!!!

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#37 Post by Doug Schulman » April 17th, 2019, 9:55 am

In addition to some of the other comments, I think it can be frustrating seeing manufactured, reproducible wines, lacking sense of place or even distinctive characteristics, masquerading as great wines. It's worth noting that this happens in Europe as well as elsewhere, and I see the European versions getting quite a bit of critique. I think it's more about a style than it is the origin of the wine.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#38 Post by Ron Slye » April 17th, 2019, 10:06 am

Kirk.Grant wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 5:15 am

I've found few wine-lovers that can accept or appreciate the full range of the spectrum. Even in regions there are divisions; just look at Barolo and how some traditionalists and modernists "would not acknowledge one another in the past". Wine is about passion...to me it does make some sense that when people are this passionate about something that there would be strong thoughts, feelings, and beliefs. It's just too bad that people can't acknowledge the value of the full spectrum and leave it at, "That's not my preference".
I agree with this. I try to teach my students tolerance and to expose themselves, and to understand, different ideas. I look at about ten different news sites a day -- from Wall Street Journal and Financial Times to Al Jazeera and the Guardian. (I did try Breitbart after recent events, but found it completely useless -- and it tried to place literally hundreds of trackers on my computer).

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#39 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » April 17th, 2019, 10:15 am

I like Insignia. I have always liked Insignia. That goes for the older wines (the ones from the 1970s were wonderful), and the newer wines. They are truly different, but I can understand the appeal of either style.

What I can't understand is how a 12,000 case production Cab blend goes for $250 a bottle. I know, supply and demand, but it's not really demand. Price is used to create demand, by bringing an air of luxury. $50 Insignia doesn't make the same "statement" as $250 Insignia.

p.s. Bevan Ontogeny for $95 gives you essentially the same end result as Insignia
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#40 Post by David_K » April 17th, 2019, 10:25 am

Because new world drinkers are not the brightest bunch, and have literacy issues. It is difficult to criticize old world wines when you're limited to grunting and mashing the keyboard. Also, they can't read the labels.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#41 Post by Brandon R » April 17th, 2019, 10:45 am

David_K wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 10:25 am
Because new world drinkers are not the brightest bunch, and have literacy issues. It is difficult to criticize old world wines when you're limited to grunting and mashing the keyboard. Also, they can't read the labels.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#42 Post by Keith A k e r s » April 17th, 2019, 10:56 am

Brandon R wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 9:52 am
Very interesting point that several above have made that I hadn't considered: old world wines, by and large, haven't changed (stylistically speaking) and their wines are much like they've been for decades or longer. New world wineries, in many cases, have gone through a stylistic metamorphosis, arguably, to pander to high scores and the prices that they can command as a result. I can see someone who enjoy CA Cab of the 70s and 80s being very vocal about their distaste for the "newer" version. Someone who has long been drinking Bordeaux hasn't likely seen the same shift and, hence, less vitriol. (I know, I know, we have the modernized Bordeaux Chateau argument...but let's leave that to threads dedicated to that).

Tangentially, I also seem to see less polarization with regard to wines made with Rhone varieties. The above and my OP seem most applicable to Cab/Bordeaux-variety wines and certainly Pinot Noir. I wonder why?

a few disagreements on the bolded statements:

1) I'm not entirely sure this is as true with the broad brush that you're painting. Certainly look at the vitriol that can happen towards Barolo that sees a major style shift and the same can certainly be said in Burgundy when ownership changes or the younger generation changes things up drastically (see Pousse d'Or and also the prices that Gerard Potel wines go for).

2) I mean, you say that there is less vitriol from long time bordeaux drinkers and then right away mention the major beef that invariably happens when there's a change. So, it could well be argued that there are those shifts that happen and anger can emerge

3) I would highly suggest you check out threads that focus in on Cambie wines and the vitriol that can arise around 2007 CdP and other super ripe vintages vs the older styles that were around for a long time.



as far as a focus on cabernet and Pinot Noir, we just don't have the amount of posters to generate say in-depth Rioja discussion on a weekly basis for the kind of statements to happen. Rioja has certainly seen a massive shift, but I don't think there's that much discussion on the region so it goes unnoticed on this board for the most part. But, this does happen with other old world regions for sure and I would be quite certain if say there was a major shift at a Chinon producer like Charles Joguet that you would see some bombs being dropped on that (still exists in bordeaux varietals, but you can catch my drift). There also has certainly been negative things said irt Brunello with more modern producers vs old-school producers. It's just the threads that one pays attention to and whatnot.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#43 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » April 17th, 2019, 1:21 pm

I, too, notice the inequal derision noted by the OP. I believe the Old World crowd is **generally** snobbier and more condescending than is the New World crowd. I will never understand why some folks harang others for different wine preferences.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#44 Post by Keith A k e r s » April 17th, 2019, 1:26 pm

Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 1:21 pm
I, too, notice the inequal derision noted by the OP. I believe the Old World crowd is **generally** snobbier and more condescending than is the New World crowd. I will never understand why some folks harang others for different wine preferences.

how is it any different than a NW palate claiming that an old world wine tastes like brett a bunch? selective bias on your part maybe?

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#45 Post by bob poirier » April 17th, 2019, 1:31 pm

Brandon R wrote:
April 16th, 2019, 3:02 pm
In a post over on the CT forums, someone re-posted a TN on a well-respected California Bordeaux-style blend (2012 Insignia). The original TN author was clearly not a fan of the wine and, among other things wrote, "I can't for the life of me understand how anybody could be willing to part with 250€ for a gloopy monster wine like this." Now, my point isn't to bring any attention to this particular TN author at all. This TN, however, is so similar to so many I see here (TNs and mentions in discussion) and on other wine forums. It happens all the time: tasters who clearly prefer Old World wines take the time to make it clear how much they dislike a particular well-known California Cab or blend.

Sure, we can all pile on a bag on a clearly over-the-top wine like an out-of-balance, high RS, fake oak mess and agree. There seems to be joy to be found by some, though, in being heavily critical (and going out of the way to be so) of many widely-regarded and well-made new world wines.

My question is why don't we see the same level of disgust in reverse? Why don't more New World-palate-leaning folks take the time to bash classified growth Bordeaux in the same manner as the above? Where is the, "Why would anyone fork over $500 for this thin, watery, green, under-fruited, tannic..." that would seem to be as plentiful as the opposite? Sure, there are the cute tongue-in-cheek quips here about weedy Loire Cab Francs, but there have got to be people out there who detest Old World wines. Why don't they go to the same lengths to pontificate publicly?

For what it's worth, I love new world wines and I love old world wines just the same.
This is where you lose me, it's just a douche statement. You've posted 8000 TN's and don't understand that people have different preferences?

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#46 Post by GregP » April 17th, 2019, 1:45 pm

Brandon R wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 9:52 am
... old world wines, by and large, haven't changed (stylistically speaking) and their wines are much like they've been for decades or longer. ...
In a word, No.

We did an OR Pinot tasting last week, BLIND FORMAT, and one ringer, a well known Burg producer, was nothing but a New World in style: high ripeness, high extraction and lots of new oak. (Not that most of OR ones didn't resemble their CA counterparts despite all the proclamations to the contrary, but that's a different thread).

RO comes from French wine making techniques last time I checked. And whereas much new oak was not a normal in decades past, due to cost, now that wineries can afford more of it, with way more revenue coming in due demand from Asia, the style has changed. As did picking riper, at times much riper. Those alc numbers on Old World labels? Ignore them, feel free to send in bottle samples to labs for proper numbers, as some of us do when palate impressions do not correlate to labels/claims. One reason I take plenty a TN with a huge grain of salt, I see plenty of people rate "names" rather than what's really inside a bottle. Pretty much any wine making technique one cares to name in "manipulating" wine has come from France, shame that so many refuse to accept nor understand this fact.

BLIND FORMAT, been doing that for the past 20+ years and highly recommend it. Very humbling more often than not. And extremely educational.

-----

As to the OP's take on notes, I fully agree, there is a definite step up in how "Old World palates" seem to express themselves, pretty much in a very condescending way most of the time.
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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#47 Post by GregP » April 17th, 2019, 1:48 pm

Keith A k e r s wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 1:26 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 1:21 pm
I, too, notice the inequal derision noted by the OP. I believe the Old World crowd is **generally** snobbier and more condescending than is the New World crowd. I will never understand why some folks harang others for different wine preferences.

how is it any different than a NW palate claiming that an old world wine tastes like brett a bunch? selective bias on your part maybe?
Because they may be bretty? Just a guess.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#48 Post by Chris Seiber » April 17th, 2019, 2:00 pm

I'll attempt a serious answer to the question posed.

Every internet message board I've seen has a zeitgeist, which is the prevailing / fashionable opinion on there. If you're on a college football message board, it might be that the current offensive coordinator sucks and is the reason the team isn't having more success. If you're on a political one, it's going to lean hard one way or the other. If you're on a movie discussion site, it might be that indie and foreign movies are awesome and big studio movies all suck. On Wine Berserkers, it's Old World > New World, traditional > modern, lean > ripe.

That doesn't mean there aren't going to be dissenters, or that the dissenters don't have an opportunity to express their views. But it does mean that it's very easy and comfortable to express one view, and it's tough sledding and may take a thick skin to express the other one.

As a result, one view will get expressed much more often than the other. The prevailing opinion can be given in blithe shorthand (like "goop," "Parkerized" and "blueberry milkshake" on this board), and it will receive mostly high fives. The unfashionable opinion takes more work and more effort, other than for the poster here or there that just likes to poke the bear and get reactions. That, in turn, means you will get more and more of the dominant opinion, and less and less of the dissenting opinion, which will only increase the extent to which the former is the dominant opinion.

Interestingly, the dominant view is not necessarily the majority one. It may just be that one side's argument is an easier one (e.g. far easier to criticize an offensive coordinator than to defend one), or that one side has more energy and intensity than the other (the people who think the coach sucks are passionate and intense about it, the ones who think he's doing okay are not).

I don't have any way of knowing, but there may well be more people who like new world and riper / more robust styled wines on WB than those who disdain them, or at least a lot more than you would think reading the board. But when one of them opens a Marcassin, Voerzio or Lascombes and enjoys it, he is much more likely to decide it isn't worth the effort and the slings and arrows to post it on WB. Conversely, someone (maybe the same person) has a Gonon, Mascarello or Arnot Roberts and enjoys it, he's far more likely to post about it, and to enjoy all the plaudits he'll get. If you picture some WBer late evening after enjoying a wine and imagine his decision process about whether to go post a tasting note or not, it's not hard to see how that goes some of the time.

As the internet goes, WB is probably in the 98th percentile in terms of being pretty tolerant of other people's views and tastes, and in terms of having a reasonable diversity of opinion. I think being a real names board is a big factor in that, and then the fact that many of us have met others from the board in person, which increases respectfulness and collegiality. But I think what the OP describes is a real thing here, and those are my views on how it happens.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#49 Post by Neal.Mollen » April 17th, 2019, 2:10 pm

I obviously don't visit the "right" threads because I don't see a ton of condescension and what I do see is usually in (apparent) jest. (And also seems to be pretty evenly distributed among new world/old world fans)

That may well be because I don't open threads about the latest CA or Ore wines. They don't really interest me and it is poor form and really a waste of my time just to stick my nose in the thread to say "your wines suck." I know it happens sometimes but I honestly don't see it often. I've seen more of it in this thread than any recent thread I can recall (again, evenly distributed). And no one behaves like that much in the champagne or bdx threads i am more likely to visit.

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Re: Why is the level of fervor is uneven: old world versus new world palates...

#50 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » April 17th, 2019, 2:21 pm

Keith A k e r s wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 1:26 pm
Brian G r a f s t r o m wrote:
April 17th, 2019, 1:21 pm
I, too, notice the inequal derision noted by the OP. I believe the Old World crowd is **generally** snobbier and more condescending than is the New World crowd. I will never understand why some folks harang others for different wine preferences.

how is it any different than a NW palate claiming that an old world wine tastes like brett a bunch? selective bias on your part maybe?
omg ... read what I wrote, please.

...

How is what any different? There is snobbery and condescension on both sides. I just see it emanating more from the OW side.
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