Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

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Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#1 Post by john stimson » December 21st, 2018, 9:06 pm

Served last night at a small dinner with close friends. nice, fresh chablis color. beautiful.......nose and palate of baked apple pie. Crap. youngest pre-moxed V. Dauvissat yet. Cork looked fine but seemed somewhat light-weight.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#2 Post by alan weinberg » December 21st, 2018, 9:56 pm

ouch is right.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#3 Post by Jason_H » December 21st, 2018, 10:10 pm

Have opened over a dozen 2011 and have had no premox issues at all. Hell two of the same wine in the last week and a half. 2008 is really the only vintage I’ve had issues with in the last 10-15 vintages.
Last edited by Jason_H on December 22nd, 2018, 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#4 Post by john stimson » December 21st, 2018, 10:13 pm

I've been a big defender of Dauvissat, and have 10 cases or so in the cellar, but in addition to big-time problems with 2008, have now had had pre-moxed 2009 and 2011 Forest.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#5 Post by Steve Brickley » December 22nd, 2018, 7:16 am

Sad to read. I had one in August 2018 and was fine. It probably makes zero difference for premox, but I keep the home cellar at 52. But thank you for the note as I will drink the last 2011 that I have.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#6 Post by Kevin Harvey » December 22nd, 2018, 7:37 am

I am out. Cases and cases of premoxed wine across many vintages. Frankly, I am amazed people still buy White Burgundy. The problem is definitely not solved (in fact it is still a mystery).
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#7 Post by Claus Jeppesen » December 22nd, 2018, 7:38 am

Frustrating
I bought heavily in 2010 and 2014
Sofar all pure pleasure
Enjoying a 2010 Vaillons the 2nd day now
Typical Dauvissat brinyness and steely minerality
(I know it is too early but the
1er crus taste so damn good)
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#8 Post by Kirk.Grant » December 22nd, 2018, 7:59 am

Claus Jeppesen wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:38 am
Frustrating
I bought heavily in 2010 and 2014
Sofar all pure pleasure
Enjoying a 2010 Vaillons the 2nd day now
Typical Dauvissat brinyness and steely minerality
(I know it is too early but the
1er crus taste so damn good)
Claus,

I don't think it's too early for 2010's given the pre-mox problems. I'm only holding onto one 2014 (PYCM) in the hope that i will get lucky to see where it goes with time sideways.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#9 Post by A Rubin Stein » December 22nd, 2018, 8:28 am

Premox is already hitting some ‘14s, like the Billaud Simon Mont de Milieu I opened recently. (Oddly enough, another bottle also recently opened from the same case was corked, but that’s another issue.)
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#10 Post by Subu Ramachandran » December 22nd, 2018, 9:16 am

Ouch I have a 10 forest on the docket for the weekend and have a '12 as a backup! Crossing fingers.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#11 Post by Jayson Cohen » December 22nd, 2018, 9:24 am

A Rubin Stein wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 8:28 am
Premox is already hitting some ‘14s, like the Billaud Simon Mont de Milieu I opened recently. (Oddly enough, another bottle also recently opened from the same case was corked, but that’s another issue.)
Ouch. Maybe time to do an NYC ‘14 Chablis thing or two, and try to assess broadly.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#12 Post by john stimson » December 22nd, 2018, 9:46 am

Jason_H wrote:
December 21st, 2018, 10:10 pm
Have opened over a dozen 2011 and have had no premox issues at all. Hell two of the same wine in the last week and a half. 2008 is really the only vintage I’ve had issues with in the last 10-15 vintages.
that's what I would have said about a year ago, but that's changing rapidly.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#13 Post by A Rubin Stein » December 22nd, 2018, 9:48 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 9:24 am
A Rubin Stein wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 8:28 am
Premox is already hitting some ‘14s, like the Billaud Simon Mont de Milieu I opened recently. (Oddly enough, another bottle also recently opened from the same case was corked, but that’s another issue.)
Ouch. Maybe time to do an NYC ‘14 Chablis thing or two, and try to assess broadly.
Let’s do that, in Jan or Feb.
a s h e r

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#14 Post by john stimson » December 22nd, 2018, 9:52 am

Kirk.Grant wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:59 am
Claus Jeppesen wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:38 am
Frustrating
I bought heavily in 2010 and 2014
Sofar all pure pleasure
Enjoying a 2010 Vaillons the 2nd day now
Typical Dauvissat brinyness and steely minerality
(I know it is too early but the
1er crus taste so damn good)
Claus,

I don't think it's too early for 2010's given the pre-mox problems. I'm only holding onto one 2014 (PYCM) in the hope that i will get lucky to see where it goes with time sideways.
The trouble is, the sweet spot for Dauvissat PC's starts at about 7 years of age on, and later for GC's. It's sort of like deciding you are going to drink all of your red burgs at 6 or 7 years of age. You catch everything at the wrong time.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#15 Post by john stimson » December 22nd, 2018, 9:57 am

Kevin Harvey wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:37 am
I am out. Cases and cases of premoxed wine across many vintages. Frankly, I am amazed people still buy White Burgundy. The problem is definitely not solved (in fact it is still a mystery).
Kevin, I gave up on white burg not long after my 95's and 96's fell apart. But I felt that a few of the chablis producers were somehow immune. But Fevre soon fell by the wayside, and now Dauvissat, somewhat late in the game (I've not had much premoxed until the latter half of the 2000's decade.) I wonder if they felt that they were somehow immune, and have been behind in making adjustments that many other places have made.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#16 Post by Claus Jeppesen » December 22nd, 2018, 10:21 am

Subu Ramachandran wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 9:16 am
Ouch I have a 10 forest on the docket for the weekend and have a '12 as a backup! Crossing fingers.
THe 2010 Forest is fantastic
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=154475&p=2581489
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#17 Post by Jayson Cohen » December 22nd, 2018, 10:24 am

john stimson wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 9:57 am
Kevin Harvey wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:37 am
I am out. Cases and cases of premoxed wine across many vintages. Frankly, I am amazed people still buy White Burgundy. The problem is definitely not solved (in fact it is still a mystery).
Kevin, I gave up on white burg not long after my 95's and 96's fell apart. But I felt that a few of the chablis producers were somehow immune. But Fevre soon fell by the wayside, and now Dauvissat, somewhat late in the game (I've not had much premoxed until the latter half of the 2000's decade.) I wonder if they felt that they were somehow immune, and have been behind in making adjustments that many other places have made.
No way. Almost every bottle of 2000 Preuses and Clos I owned (directly from Europe) after a few years in bottle were premoxed. It’s why I gave up on Dauvissat and missed a lot of delicious wines including the 2007s, which showed amazing potential on release.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#18 Post by Subu Ramachandran » December 22nd, 2018, 1:45 pm

Claus Jeppesen wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 10:21 am
Subu Ramachandran wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 9:16 am
Ouch I have a 10 forest on the docket for the weekend and have a '12 as a backup! Crossing fingers.
THe 2010 Forest is fantastic
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=154475&p=2581489
Claus just opened and decanted it. Smashing purity, crystalline, the wine is signing...

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#19 Post by Kevin Harvey » December 22nd, 2018, 1:59 pm

john stimson wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 9:57 am
Kevin Harvey wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:37 am
I am out. Cases and cases of premoxed wine across many vintages. Frankly, I am amazed people still buy White Burgundy. The problem is definitely not solved (in fact it is still a mystery).
Kevin, I gave up on white burg not long after my 95's and 96's fell apart. But I felt that a few of the chablis producers were somehow immune. But Fevre soon fell by the wayside, and now Dauvissat, somewhat late in the game (I've not had much premoxed until the latter half of the 2000's decade.) I wonder if they felt that they were somehow immune, and have been behind in making adjustments that many other places have made.
John,
I felt the same way and switched my buying to Chablis and St Aubin. Then those also started premoxing at a similar rate. I have also dipped my toe back in the water with a few bottles of Cote de Beaunes but I have seen many premox from vintages like 2010 and 2012. The idea that producers might have solved this problem (without figuring out what caused it) has proven to be a fallacy. I am out entirely now.
Rhys Vineyards

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#20 Post by EricG » December 22nd, 2018, 3:13 pm

2008 Preuses was totally shot recently. Will drink the rest of my 08s and 10s by year end and move on. Sad as I’ve had some old Dauvissat that was incredible.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#21 Post by Jeff Stettner » December 22nd, 2018, 3:22 pm

A 2009 Les Clos that I have had since release was sadly poured down the drain on Thanksgiving. I have one more and hope the karma flips.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#22 Post by alan weinberg » December 22nd, 2018, 3:42 pm

this is a very depressing thread. My oxidized Dauvissats are half bottles of 95 and 96. I still have some—afraid to open.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#23 Post by Jason_H » December 22nd, 2018, 6:58 pm

Very fresh and youthful. Opening up and getting better with more and more oxygen.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#24 Post by lleichtman » December 22nd, 2018, 8:09 pm

I have had so many top White Burgs premoxed that I have given up on them completely. These are too expensive to have them go bad. I have found lots of Oregon Chards that hit the sweet spot and never had a premoxed one. Problem is I have 3 cases of mixed white burgs from 2007-2014.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#25 Post by john stimson » December 22nd, 2018, 9:11 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 3:42 pm
this is a very depressing thread. My oxidized Dauvissats are half bottles of 95 and 96. I still have some—afraid to open.
Actually, 96 Dauvissat has always been free of premox for me, and the 96's are heroic wines, among the best chablis I have ever had. I think we're all out around here, unless Dr Grenley has some.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#26 Post by Robert Grenley » December 23rd, 2018, 12:13 am

john stimson wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 9:11 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 3:42 pm
this is a very depressing thread. My oxidized Dauvissats are half bottles of 95 and 96. I still have some—afraid to open.
Actually, 96 Dauvissat has always been free of premox for me, and the 96's are heroic wines, among the best chablis I have ever had. I think we're all out around here, unless Dr Grenley has some.
Nope, my 96’s are all gone, and the only Dauvissats I have left are a bottle of 10 Clos and a bottle of 10 Preuses...and I am happy to open them with you at any time since I no longer have any confidence in Dauvissat, nor in any other WB producer at this point. I am no longer willing to gamble above Bourgogne Blanc nor beyond 5 years.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#27 Post by IlkkaL » December 23rd, 2018, 1:53 am

Ugh. I was ecstatic for having just recently bought a bottle of 2016 Dauvissat Forest for a price that was very good for the wine but high in terms of what I tend to pay for white wines. What a buzz kill it was to discover this thread... pileon
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#28 Post by A Songeur » December 23rd, 2018, 3:06 am

Need to drink my bottle asap then... and stop buying it (only get 2 chablis a forest and a grand cru (Preuses or Clos) every year so limited bet but still frustrating.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#29 Post by Claus Jeppesen » December 23rd, 2018, 6:06 am

IlkkaL wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 1:53 am
Ugh. I was ecstatic for having just recently bought a bottle of 2016 Dauvissat Forest for a price that was very good for the wine but high in terms of what I tend to pay for white wines. What a buzz kill it was to discover this thread... pileon
If you search Dauvissat premox you will find more depressing threads
Including this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=125072&p=1951798
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#30 Post by john stimson » December 23rd, 2018, 11:03 am

Robert Grenley wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 12:13 am
john stimson wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 9:11 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 3:42 pm
this is a very depressing thread. My oxidized Dauvissats are half bottles of 95 and 96. I still have some—afraid to open.
Actually, 96 Dauvissat has always been free of premox for me, and the 96's are heroic wines, among the best chablis I have ever had. I think we're all out around here, unless Dr Grenley has some.
Nope, my 96’s are all gone, and the only Dauvissats I have left are a bottle of 10 Clos and a bottle of 10 Preuses...and I am happy to open them with you at any time since I no longer have any confidence in Dauvissat, nor in any other WB producer at this point. I am no longer willing to gamble above Bourgogne Blanc nor beyond 5 years.
Well, I currently have every year from 2002 on until 2016. Lucky me. And I don't get nearly the same enjoyment from drinking them young as I do when mature.

That being said, I haven't had a universal premox experience, just more recently than I've been used to. When I get frustrated by a premoxed bottle, and decide I'm going to drink-up a given vintage, the next bottle is pristine, and painfully young, so I back off and decide I'll drink them when I normally would.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#31 Post by Jason_H » December 24th, 2018, 6:55 pm

2008 La Forest tonight, fresh and needed an hour in the decanter.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#32 Post by IlkkaL » December 25th, 2018, 2:04 am

Claus Jeppesen wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 6:06 am
IlkkaL wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 1:53 am
Ugh. I was ecstatic for having just recently bought a bottle of 2016 Dauvissat Forest for a price that was very good for the wine but high in terms of what I tend to pay for white wines. What a buzz kill it was to discover this thread... pileon
If you search Dauvissat premox you will find more depressing threads
Including this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=125072&p=1951798
Yeah I had seen some of those discussions, it's just that this much negativity in one thread had not registered before. I've only had Dauvissat twice (2010 Chablis and 2011 La Forest) and neither bottle was not one bit advanced so I guess I just have to hope that my good luck continues.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#33 Post by Jayson Cohen » December 25th, 2018, 7:49 am

The most frustrating part about premox Dauvissat in particular (like for example Ramonet further South) is the number of truly outstanding bottles strewn among the dead ones.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#34 Post by ky1em!ttskus » December 25th, 2018, 9:00 am

Oof! What a thread to read through on Christmas...

May everyone’s bottles be fresh in the new year! [cheers.gif]

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#35 Post by JWalter » June 6th, 2019, 9:36 am

Opened a premixed 2011 Forest last night. Time to drink up?

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#36 Post by Greg Mitrakas » June 6th, 2019, 10:32 am

I've been out since early 2000's except for buying bottles for consumption within first five years. Not throwing any stones, aged white burg is like crack cocaine when it's on, but like Albert Einstein said, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#37 Post by CraigT » June 6th, 2019, 11:35 am

I’ve had no problems with my bottles. I drank a 2008 Les clos and it was perfect [cheers.gif]. Maybe this is a storage issue? I bought mine from a shop in Dijon France were it was stored in perfect old stone cellar. Just a thought?
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#38 Post by alan weinberg » June 6th, 2019, 2:06 pm

storage issues have been completely discounted—many premoxed bottles in makers’ cellars.

I’m out re Dauvissat but it’s a price issue. Still just 95 and 96 problematic for me.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#39 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » June 6th, 2019, 2:09 pm

Always nice to have an excuse to drink my young bottles of Dauvissat!
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#40 Post by john stimson » June 6th, 2019, 8:41 pm

Well, I’ve got about ten cases to drink down. But I’ve only bought 3 bottles of 2017, though, more from pricing issues than premox. Frankly these days I get almost as much enjoyment out of a young fresh bourgogne blanc or AC chablis from a good producer as from one of the big guns.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#41 Post by joz€f p1nxten » June 7th, 2019, 2:07 am

Will be having a 2005 Forest in 2 weeks time - will report back. Impeccable provenance.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#42 Post by Fred Bower » June 7th, 2019, 7:44 am

I ran through a 2011 Vaillons last week and it was fine but would like more development. I pulled the trigger on a few 2017s as a result. Summer risotto on the menu for tonight. White Burgundy will be opened. Rhys/Alesia will be the backup :).

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#43 Post by lleichtman » June 7th, 2019, 9:59 am

john stimson wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 9:52 am
Kirk.Grant wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:59 am
Claus Jeppesen wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:38 am
Frustrating
I bought heavily in 2010 and 2014
Sofar all pure pleasure
Enjoying a 2010 Vaillons the 2nd day now
Typical Dauvissat brinyness and steely minerality
(I know it is too early but the
1er crus taste so damn good)
Claus,

I don't think it's too early for 2010's given the pre-mox problems. I'm only holding onto one 2014 (PYCM) in the hope that i will get lucky to see where it goes with time sideways.
The trouble is, the sweet spot for Dauvissat PC's starts at about 7 years of age on, and later for GC's. It's sort of like deciding you are going to drink all of your red burgs at 6 or 7 years of age. You catch everything at the wrong time.
I have to agree on the 7 year sweet spot. Have yet to have one premox on me at least from Dauvissat but have had problems with other 2011 and 2010 from various purveyors.
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#44 Post by JWalter » June 14th, 2019, 3:30 pm

Opened another 2011 La forest that was premoxed. That’s 3 in a row for me. Not as bad as the last bottle and I guess you could maybe drink it but it wouldn’t be fun. I think I must have gotten a bad case from Crush/K&L as the track record for 2012 has been horrendous.

Opened a 2010 Forest as a make up wine and it is in a great spot. Pretty much perfect actually

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#45 Post by Doug Schulman » June 14th, 2019, 3:37 pm

Greg Mitrakas wrote:
June 6th, 2019, 10:32 am
I've been out since early 2000's except for buying bottles for consumption within first five years. Not throwing any stones, aged white burg is like crack cocaine when it's on, but like Albert Einstein said, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”
Except that Einstein did not say that and it's a nonsensical definition of insanity. neener
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Reece Warren
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#46 Post by Reece Warren » June 15th, 2019, 8:36 pm

Have had two 375ml Bonneau du Martray Corton Charlemagne 2010s recently. Both premoxed.
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Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#47 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » June 18th, 2019, 11:02 am

FWIW, I decided a long time ago (this premox issue has been going on for a long time now), to drink my WB as I would have "before". I have no regrets, as drinking them early, to me, misses out on the reward. So, if it's good, I missed the reward (for aging). If it's premoxed...I missed any reward. I'd rather have a chance for that reward. As the song goes: "anticipation".

For me, Dauvissat's sweet spot is from 12-15 years. So, 7 (or under 10) misses that. I remain astonished that this plague keeps going.

I also remain more or less convinced that the rigidity/ability to make a good seal is the cause of the problem, which is, like the rigidity of the corks, variable.

Still haven't heard any better explanation. And, that I haven't, makes me more convinced that it is something obvious and simple.

Dauvissat has, for the most part, been ok, I think. And, Carillon seemed almost exempt from it, for some reason.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#48 Post by c fu » June 18th, 2019, 11:56 am

Carillon is not exempt from premox at all.
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Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow
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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#49 Post by Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow » June 18th, 2019, 12:47 pm

I stopped buying with the 2006 vintage. So, no clue since then.

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Re: Ouch. Premoxed 2011 V. Dauvissat La Forest

#50 Post by john stimson » June 18th, 2019, 7:50 pm

Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow wrote:
June 18th, 2019, 11:02 am
FWIW, I decided a long time ago (this premox issue has been going on for a long time now), to drink my WB as I would have "before". I have no regrets, as drinking them early, to me, misses out on the reward. So, if it's good, I missed the reward (for aging). If it's premoxed...I missed any reward. I'd rather have a chance for that reward. As the song goes: "anticipation".

For me, Dauvissat's sweet spot is from 12-15 years. So, 7 (or under 10) misses that. I remain astonished that this plague keeps going.

I also remain more or less convinced that the rigidity/ability to make a good seal is the cause of the problem, which is, like the rigidity of the corks, variable.

Still haven't heard any better explanation. And, that I haven't, makes me more convinced that it is something obvious and simple.

Dauvissat has, for the most part, been ok, I think. And, Carillon seemed almost exempt from it, for some reason.
Stuart--i used to think Dauvissat fairly exempt, but no longer. You are in for some disappointments with 2008, 2009, 2011. 2007 is a joy, but there will be some premoxed bottles as well. (Of course you stopped buying--too bad then you missed 2007, which for my money is the best chablis vintage in a long while.)

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