RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

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Don Cornwell
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8851 Post by Don Cornwell » October 17th, 2020, 3:20 am

Wine Spectator published its own article on Friday, October 16. https://www.winespectator.com/articles/ ... icaia-ring The Wine Spectator mostly repeats the details summarized above, but it contains one significant new fact.

Wine Spectator interviewed Priscilla Incisa della Rocchetta, co-owner and family ambassador for Tenuta San Guido, the producer of Sassicaia, who is quoted as stating: ""Thanks to the anti-counterfeiting systems that we use on the bottles, it was possible to immediately recognize them as fakes." So apparently there were some anti-counterfeiting measures that weren't overcome by the look-alike bottles.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8852 Post by Br1an Th0rne » October 17th, 2020, 3:48 am

Don Cornwell wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 3:20 am
Wine Spectator published its own article on Friday, October 16. https://www.winespectator.com/articles/ ... icaia-ring The Wine Spectator mostly repeats the details summarized above, but it contains one significant new fact.

Wine Spectator interviewed Priscilla Incisa della Rocchetta, co-owner and family ambassador for Tenuta San Guido, the producer of Sassicaia, who is quoted as stating: ""Thanks to the anti-counterfeiting systems that we use on the bottles, it was possible to immediately recognize them as fakes." So apparently there were some anti-counterfeiting measures that weren't overcome by the look-alike bottles.
Would be nice if Priscilla shared what those anti-counterfeiting measure are, so consumers could determine if what they are buying (or have already bought) are fakes. I’m sure the counterfeiters would love to have this information also...

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8853 Post by Sean S y d n e y » October 17th, 2020, 7:32 am

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 3:48 am
Don Cornwell wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 3:20 am
Wine Spectator published its own article on Friday, October 16. https://www.winespectator.com/articles/ ... icaia-ring The Wine Spectator mostly repeats the details summarized above, but it contains one significant new fact.

Wine Spectator interviewed Priscilla Incisa della Rocchetta, co-owner and family ambassador for Tenuta San Guido, the producer of Sassicaia, who is quoted as stating: ""Thanks to the anti-counterfeiting systems that we use on the bottles, it was possible to immediately recognize them as fakes." So apparently there were some anti-counterfeiting measures that weren't overcome by the look-alike bottles.
Would be nice if Priscilla shared what those anti-counterfeiting measure are, so consumers could determine if what they are buying (or have already bought) are fakes. I’m sure the counterfeiters would love to have this information also...
I'm sure the counterfeiters would like it too!
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8854 Post by HoosJustinG » October 17th, 2020, 8:24 am

Jason T wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 2:48 am
HoosJustinG wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 4:43 am
I’m surprised such a sophisticated counterfeiting ring would be dedicated to making fake Sassicaia including fake OWCs and banding.

Frankly, I imagine there’s a much more lucrative market faking premium champagne with all that is sold at bars and clubs to people who have no idea what they’re drinking and only care about the label. It can’t be easy to get fake wine into the supply chain of wine shops and high end restaurants. I’d imagine club owners to be much more amenable/less suspicious to buying outside their normal supply chains than a wine shop owner or grocery store. I guess faking true Champagne is logistically harder due to secondary fermentation, but again, you could probably bottle tank method bubbles and most/all club clientele would have no idea ... and it’s not like it’s an unsolvable mystery that only top champagne houses have figured out. There’s plenty of producers making “traditional method” sparkling wine ... if these folks can figure out perfect Sassicaia OWCs, tissue paper, etc, they can figure that out too...
Damnit, now I’ll always doubt the authenticity of those Ace of Spades jeros I’m sipping and spraying in the club. Well done.
champagne.gif champagne.gif champagne.gif

Those Ace of Spades bottles look expensive - cheaper to fake Dom!
Don Cornwell wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 3:20 am
Wine Spectator published its own article on Friday, October 16. https://www.winespectator.com/articles/ ... icaia-ring The Wine Spectator mostly repeats the details summarized above, but it contains one significant new fact.

Wine Spectator interviewed Priscilla Incisa della Rocchetta, co-owner and family ambassador for Tenuta San Guido, the producer of Sassicaia, who is quoted as stating: ""Thanks to the anti-counterfeiting systems that we use on the bottles, it was possible to immediately recognize them as fakes." So apparently there were some anti-counterfeiting measures that weren't overcome by the look-alike bottles.
If I were she, I might say this regardless of whether or not it’s true just to get it out there and put some seeds of doubt in the mind of fakers. If fakers think they’ve missed something on Sass bottles, they might move on to another producer.
Last edited by HoosJustinG on October 17th, 2020, 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8855 Post by Cris Whetstone » October 17th, 2020, 8:58 am

Jason T wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 2:48 am
HoosJustinG wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 4:43 am
I’m surprised such a sophisticated counterfeiting ring would be dedicated to making fake Sassicaia including fake OWCs and banding.

Frankly, I imagine there’s a much more lucrative market faking premium champagne with all that is sold at bars and clubs to people who have no idea what they’re drinking and only care about the label. It can’t be easy to get fake wine into the supply chain of wine shops and high end restaurants. I’d imagine club owners to be much more amenable/less suspicious to buying outside their normal supply chains than a wine shop owner or grocery store. I guess faking true Champagne is logistically harder due to secondary fermentation, but again, you could probably bottle tank method bubbles and most/all club clientele would have no idea ... and it’s not like it’s an unsolvable mystery that only top champagne houses have figured out. There’s plenty of producers making “traditional method” sparkling wine ... if these folks can figure out perfect Sassicaia OWCs, tissue paper, etc, they can figure that out too...
Damnit, now I’ll always doubt the authenticity of those Ace of Spades jeros I’m sipping and spraying in the club. Well done.
Faking that would run the risk of improving on the original product.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8856 Post by Jürgen Steinke » October 28th, 2020, 5:23 am

A German website is offering a Magnum of 1947 Lafleur with a certificate that supposedly does proof its authenticity. What do you think? We all know, that Madame Robin, producer of that era, said only 5 Magnums were made.

https://www.jahrhundertweine.de/shpSR.p ... 255&p2=682
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8857 Post by Don Cornwell » October 28th, 2020, 5:49 am

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
October 28th, 2020, 5:23 am
A German website is offering a Magnum of 1947 Lafleur with a certificate that supposedly does proof its authenticity. What do you think? We all know, that Madame Robin, producer of that era, said only 5 Magnums were made.

https://www.jahrhundertweine.de/shpSR.p ... 255&p2=682
While I haven't seen the purported magnum of 1947 Lafleur (as to which I would be highly dubious from the outset based on on the info from David Molyneux-Berry and Madame Robin), I can say that over the last 10 years I've seen approximately a dozen such "certificates of authenticity" and that in 100% of the cases the wine referenced in the certificate was absolutely counterfeit.

I have also seen a considerable number of what I believed to be counterfeit wines offered for sale by this source. I have ZERO trust in Jahrhundertweine.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8858 Post by Victor Hong » October 28th, 2020, 6:43 am

Don Cornwell wrote:
October 28th, 2020, 5:49 am
Jürgen Steinke wrote:
October 28th, 2020, 5:23 am
A German website is offering a Magnum of 1947 Lafleur with a certificate that supposedly does proof its authenticity. What do you think? We all know, that Madame Robin, producer of that era, said only 5 Magnums were made.

https://www.jahrhundertweine.de/shpSR.p ... 255&p2=682
While I haven't seen the purported magnum of 1947 Lafleur (as to which I would be highly dubious from the outset based on on the info from David Molyneux-Berry and Madame Robin), I can say that over the last 10 years I've seen approximately a dozen such "certificates of authenticity" and that in 100% of the cases the wine referenced in the certificate was absolutely counterfeit.

I have also seen a considerable number of what I believed to be counterfeit wines offered for sale by this source. I have ZERO trust in Jahrhundertweine.
How about if an Acker Merrall sale receipt and a BurgHound tasting note?
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8859 Post by Jürgen Steinke » October 28th, 2020, 6:45 am

Thanks Don, I too don´t think this bottle is real. BTW – its a steal – its only 35.000 Euros :-)

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8860 Post by Victor Hong » October 28th, 2020, 6:51 am

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
October 28th, 2020, 6:45 am
Thanks Don, I too don´t think this bottle is real. BTW – its a steal – its only 35.000 Euros :-)
Steal for buyer or seller? newhere
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8861 Post by Jeff_M. » October 28th, 2020, 7:22 am

Isn't Rudy scheduled to be released next month? That is coming up really soon.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8862 Post by HenryB » October 28th, 2020, 7:51 am

only 5 magnums of lafleur made in 1947? Incredible that two are for sale right now :)

https://www.vinsgrandscrus.com/chateau- ... agnum.html
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8863 Post by Mark Golodetz » October 28th, 2020, 8:28 am

Don Cornwell wrote:
October 28th, 2020, 5:49 am
Jürgen Steinke wrote:
October 28th, 2020, 5:23 am
A German website is offering a Magnum of 1947 Lafleur with a certificate that supposedly does proof its authenticity. What do you think? We all know, that Madame Robin, producer of that era, said only 5 Magnums were made.

https://www.jahrhundertweine.de/shpSR.p ... 255&p2=682
While I haven't seen the purported magnum of 1947 Lafleur (as to which I would be highly dubious from the outset based on on the info from David Molyneux-Berry and Madame Robin), I can say that over the last 10 years I've seen approximately a dozen such "certificates of authenticity" and that in 100% of the cases the wine referenced in the certificate was absolutely counterfeit.

I have also seen a considerable number of what I believed to be counterfeit wines offered for sale by this source. I have ZERO trust in Jahrhundertweine.
+1
I have been buying older bottles of VCC. I got a 1961 from them via a broker, who checked the bottle, and it was a pretty obvious fake. Beware.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8864 Post by Jürgen Steinke » October 29th, 2020, 6:49 am

I have a question. It is obvious that some companies deal with faked wines that cost tons of money. Why can these people operate without getting any trouble? The internet is open for anybody. The fraud is public and can be easily seen. Is there no interest from the police? Lets say from a team specialized for fraud? I mean we do not talk about stealing 5 dollars from someones wallet. The obviously faked Mags of 47 Lafleur cost about 25.000 Euros a bottle! I do not understand why these people can still offer those faked wines online and nobody cares. I guess its only a question of time until someone without enough knowledge and zero suspicion buys this stuff. I have no clue what the law is but my sense for justice is definitely hurt.

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8865 Post by Victor Hong » October 29th, 2020, 7:57 am

A new sucker turns 21 every day.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8866 Post by John Danza » October 29th, 2020, 10:48 am

Victor Hong wrote:
October 29th, 2020, 7:57 am
A new sucker turns 21 every day.
A new sucker with a lot of dough apparently. How anyone with the coin to consider a bottle priced in the five figures be unaware of all the fakery that's gone on over the past 30 years (rhetorical)?
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8867 Post by Don Cornwell » October 29th, 2020, 7:47 pm

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
October 29th, 2020, 6:49 am
I have a question. It is obvious that some companies deal with faked wines that cost tons of money. Why can these people operate without getting any trouble? The internet is open for anybody. The fraud is public and can be easily seen. Is there no interest from the police? Lets say from a team specialized for fraud? I mean we do not talk about stealing 5 dollars from someones wallet. The obviously faked Mags of 47 Lafleur cost about 25.000 Euros a bottle! I do not understand why these people can still offer those faked wines online and nobody cares. I guess its only a question of time until someone without enough knowledge and zero suspicion buys this stuff. I have no clue what the law is but my sense for justice is definitely hurt.
Jürgen

This has long been one of the big frustrations of wine collectors and the industry. The police and the prosecutors in most countries have been totally uninterested in pursuing counterfeit wines. In part this is based upon the fact that most law enforcement agencies have no knowledge or expertise in dealing with wine counterfeits, but, far more often, the police have no real interest in pursuing these crimes given their other law enforcement responsibilities. There is also a definite lack of concern/sympathy in some quarters because of the perception that it is only the wealthy who are wine collectors and getting victimized.

What I have found to be really appalling is that when major criminal counterfeiters are very occasionally arrested by law enforcement, outside of the US there is usually no real jail/prison time. When Alexander Iugov (alias "Alexander Anikin") got convicted for manufacturing and distributing more than $10 million worth of fake DRC, the penalty imposed was time served in jail while awaiting trial (about 2.5 years). The father-son team in Milan that produced much or all of the counterfeit DRC on behalf of Anikin was placed on house arrest in Italy. The French government requested their extradition, but the the Italian government refused. There is no indication that they were ever charged with or convicted of any crime.

When the Sassicaia counterfeiting scam was recently unveiled, a father-son team in Milan making the counterfeits (likely the same people I suspect) was placed on house arrest. The police said that they know the names of the people who produced the counterfeits, but no one else was arrested.

In 2018 Chateau Haut Brion discovered that a Chinese trading company was marketing counterfeit Chateau Haut Brion in China and filed a trademark infringement lawsuit in China. The Chinese government then opened a criminal investigation and in January of 2019 raided a warehouse where they found 1,268 bottles of counterfeit Château Haut-Brion wines in 750ml format, and another 9,321 bottles of the same wine in 258 ml bottling (the world's most obvious fakes) and 206 bottles of counterfeit Perrier-Jouët rosé Champagnes. Instead of arresting the people involved, the Chinese government MAILED the principal suspect a notice of a criminal investigation being initiated and directed him to appear at a police station for questioning sometime prior to October of 2020. https://vino-joy.com/2020/10/20/more-th ... -in-china/ Almost needless to say, the suspect fled and never showed up for the interview. Not even the keystone cops were this hapless.

There is a specialized unit which is (or was) a part of the French Gendarmerie office in Bordeaux which was allegedly trained and tasked to deal with counterfeit wines in France beginning in 2017 or 2018. I was informed about one case they were involved with involving counterfeit Chateau Petrus, but I have not heard anything further. The FBI collectibles fraud squad also has some agents who are knowledgeable about wine and are tasked to deal with wine counterfeits and similar crimes.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8868 Post by Jürgen Steinke » October 30th, 2020, 2:34 am

Don,

all this is hard to believe and nothing but a scandal. I mean if it is right that the police shows zero interest because the victims are wealthy this argument isn´t logic. The police is interested if a thief steals a Picasso from someones house or if a fraudster tries to sell a faked Picasso. I do not see a big difference. Its a crime. Unbelievable.

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8869 Post by HenryB » October 30th, 2020, 2:57 am

It's probably cost and effort. You have to track down how these wines were faked, and by the time its realised, you might have five degrees of separation over 10-15 years, so you have a HUGE paper trail. It's not easy to certify a wine as being definitively faked, either, so you'd have to engage one of a very limited number of specialists to get a scientific assessment to verify the fraud.

Also, you'd typically ahve to be one of the injured parties I believe? (Lawyers please correct me if wrong) - so either the person who has bought the wine, or the chateau whose wines are being fraudulent produced?
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8870 Post by John Danza » October 30th, 2020, 7:10 am

The Chicago Wine Company is messaging an auction next month that is a single collector "exclusively DRC". Nothing has been posted yet, but the web page here notes 31 lots. I guess it's natural to be jaded whenever seeing stuff like this. If I were in the market for anything high-end Burgundy, I would want to see the paperwork trail from the producer all the way to the person I was buying from.

Was it Manlin who said that there was some involvement with Chicago Wine Company and Bill Koch and his issues? It rings a bell but I can't specifically recall.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8871 Post by Wes Barton » October 30th, 2020, 1:22 pm

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
October 30th, 2020, 2:34 am
Don,

all this is hard to believe and nothing but a scandal. I mean if it is right that the police shows zero interest because the victims are wealthy this argument isn´t logic. The police is interested if a thief steals a Picasso from someones house or if a fraudster tries to sell a faked Picasso. I do not see a big difference. Its a crime. Unbelievable.
Cost and effort, as Henry stated, plus just not being able to relate. We see that with other crimes, some petty and some devastating to the victims. When it becomes known a certain type of crime isn't really punished, its frequency of occurrence can really take off.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8872 Post by Victor Hong » October 30th, 2020, 1:26 pm

Wes Barton wrote:
October 30th, 2020, 1:22 pm
Jürgen Steinke wrote:
October 30th, 2020, 2:34 am
Don,

all this is hard to believe and nothing but a scandal. I mean if it is right that the police shows zero interest because the victims are wealthy this argument isn´t logic. The police is interested if a thief steals a Picasso from someones house or if a fraudster tries to sell a faked Picasso. I do not see a big difference. Its a crime. Unbelievable.
Cost and effort, as Henry stated, plus just not being able to relate. We see that with other crimes, some petty and some devastating to the victims. When it becomes known a certain type of crime isn't really punished, its frequency of occurrence can really take off.
Look at the financial sector. Nobody was jailed for deliberate financial mismanagement and fraud during Great Financial Crisis.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8873 Post by John Morris » October 30th, 2020, 2:12 pm

John Danza wrote:
October 30th, 2020, 7:10 am
The Chicago Wine Company is messaging an auction next month that is a single collector "exclusively DRC". Nothing has been posted yet, but the web page here notes 31 lots. I guess it's natural to be jaded whenever seeing stuff like this. If I were in the market for anything high-end Burgundy, I would want to see the paperwork trail from the producer all the way to the person I was buying from.

Was it Manlin who said that there was some involvement with Chicago Wine Company and Bill Koch and his issues? It rings a bell but I can't specifically recall.
Koch sued CWC over a Thomas Jefferson bottle. They settled in 2011:
https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/koch ... any-41834/
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8874 Post by John Danza » October 30th, 2020, 2:45 pm

John Morris wrote:
October 30th, 2020, 2:12 pm
John Danza wrote:
October 30th, 2020, 7:10 am
The Chicago Wine Company is messaging an auction next month that is a single collector "exclusively DRC". Nothing has been posted yet, but the web page here notes 31 lots. I guess it's natural to be jaded whenever seeing stuff like this. If I were in the market for anything high-end Burgundy, I would want to see the paperwork trail from the producer all the way to the person I was buying from.

Was it Manlin who said that there was some involvement with Chicago Wine Company and Bill Koch and his issues? It rings a bell but I can't specifically recall.
Koch sued CWC over a Thomas Jefferson bottle. They settled in 2011:
https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/koch ... any-41834/
Thanks for the reminder John.

I may have mentioned this somewhere earlier in this thread years ago. Back in 1996 when I was on a tour of Bordeaux, the small group I was with spent a few hours at Yquem. In the display case in their tasting room was one of these now known to be fake Thomas Jefferson Yquem bottles. I wonder if they finally removed it?
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN Gets

#8875 Post by Maureen Downey » November 2nd, 2020, 5:58 pm

FYI - Rudy gets released on Saturday.

What will become of him?
This is a man that stated in a letter to the judge, not that he was sorry, but that making counterfeit bottles was "the only thing [he] was ever good at."

So - what does the landscape look like for RK?
On Sat, he will be deported to, I believe HK where his brothers live. (Last I heard, Indonesia doesn't want him - but Don may know different.) After nearly a decade of study on production, forgeries and global markets, he'll be put on a plane, and dumped on foreign soil - after which our govt is done with him. There, he will be met with a significant stash of hush money, for not rolling on Kapon and the rest of the crooks and co-conspirators. He faces an industry that has transferred over to digital printing and which relies on cosmetic solutions in a world where he can easily tap suppliers willing to make exact replicas of glass, capsules and cork stamps and brands - when provided samples of the authentic thing and $$. He can also take advantage - esp. using his pay off funds - off readily available improved technology including professional grade digital printing machines to replicate the best of print jobs at relatively affordable prices if you are going to make a business of it. (A $500k printer is an easy investment if you are cranking out high end bottles!)

Or he will go straight.
I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN Gets

#8876 Post by jordan jacobs » November 2nd, 2020, 6:20 pm

Maureen Downey wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 5:58 pm
FYI - Rudy gets released on Saturday.

What will become of him?
This is a man that stated in a letter to the judge, not that he was sorry, but that making counterfeit bottles was "the only thing [he] was ever good at."

So - what does the landscape look like for RK?
On Sat, he will be deported to, I believe HK where his brothers live. (Last I heard, Indonesia doesn't want him - but Don may know different.) After nearly a decade of study on production, forgeries and global markets, he'll be put on a plane, and dumped on foreign soil - after which our govt is done with him. There, he will be met with a significant stash of hush money, for not rolling on Kapon and the rest of the crooks and co-conspirators. He faces an industry that has transferred over to digital printing and which relies on cosmetic solutions in a world where he can easily tap suppliers willing to make exact replicas of glass, capsules and cork stamps and brands - when provided samples of the authentic thing and $$. He can also take advantage - esp. using his pay off funds - off readily available improved technology including professional grade digital printing machines to replicate the best of print jobs at relatively affordable prices if you are going to make a business of it. (A $500k printer is an easy investment if you are cranking out high end bottles!)

Or he will go straight.
I'm not holding my breath.
Thank you for this scary albeit realistic commentary.

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8877 Post by Victor Hong » November 2nd, 2020, 6:27 pm

May the Virus of 2020 exert some karma.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8878 Post by Rich K0rz€nk0 » November 2nd, 2020, 7:02 pm

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8879 Post by jordan jacobs » November 2nd, 2020, 7:41 pm

Rich K0rz€nk0 wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 7:02 pm
Sour Grapes 2: Electric Boogaloo
Nicely done

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8880 Post by Keith Levenberg » November 2nd, 2020, 9:31 pm

even more infuriating than the prospect of Rudy going back to faking DRC is that he'll be able to go back to drinking it.

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8881 Post by NoahR » November 3rd, 2020, 2:05 am

Rudy gets out of jail: #2020...
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN Gets

#8882 Post by John Danza » November 3rd, 2020, 6:38 am

Maureen Downey wrote:
November 2nd, 2020, 5:58 pm
FYI - Rudy gets released on Saturday.

What will become of him?
This is a man that stated in a letter to the judge, not that he was sorry, but that making counterfeit bottles was "the only thing [he] was ever good at."

So - what does the landscape look like for RK?
On Sat, he will be deported to, I believe HK where his brothers live. (Last I heard, Indonesia doesn't want him - but Don may know different.) After nearly a decade of study on production, forgeries and global markets, he'll be put on a plane, and dumped on foreign soil - after which our govt is done with him. There, he will be met with a significant stash of hush money, for not rolling on Kapon and the rest of the crooks and co-conspirators. He faces an industry that has transferred over to digital printing and which relies on cosmetic solutions in a world where he can easily tap suppliers willing to make exact replicas of glass, capsules and cork stamps and brands - when provided samples of the authentic thing and $$. He can also take advantage - esp. using his pay off funds - off readily available improved technology including professional grade digital printing machines to replicate the best of print jobs at relatively affordable prices if you are going to make a business of it. (A $500k printer is an easy investment if you are cranking out high end bottles!)

Or he will go straight.
I'm not holding my breath.

All true Maureen. Unfortunately, we couldn't execute him, which would be the only way to prevent him from continuing his criminal life. He'll now be living in an area of the world that not only tolerates that behavior, it actually seems to encourage it.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN Gets

#8883 Post by Sean S y d n e y » November 3rd, 2020, 6:44 am

John Danza wrote:
November 3rd, 2020, 6:38 am

All true Maureen. Unfortunately, we couldn't execute him, which would be the only way to prevent him from continuing his criminal life. He'll now be living in an area of the world that not only tolerates that behavior, it actually seems to encourage it.
Jesus Christ, it was fake wine. Chill out.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8884 Post by Glenn Gallup » November 6th, 2020, 12:39 pm

If memory serves, (it doesn’t always) when the Rudy story hit West Coast media the comments columns had a number of people saying “so what” because some rich guys got cheated. It wasn’t half but it was a lot.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8885 Post by HoosJustinG » November 6th, 2020, 1:58 pm

Honestly keeping him in the country and making a condition of his release the complete disassociation from the wine trade would’ve been better if that’s the goal. Of course he could make fake wine and attempt to consign it via third parties, but after watching him spend a decade in jail, I would think he would find it more difficult to find willing accomplices in this country. Frankly, if you’re willing to risk a decade in the clink, there’s a lot easier ways to make money.

The fact that he is off to southeast Asia where - let’s be charitable and say that intellectual property protection is not a priority - is of significant concern.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8886 Post by Al Osterheld » November 6th, 2020, 2:38 pm

He doesn't have legal residence. Not a good precedent to give someone legal residence for being a crook.

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN Gets

#8887 Post by John Danza » November 6th, 2020, 2:46 pm

Sean S y d n e y wrote:
November 3rd, 2020, 6:44 am
John Danza wrote:
November 3rd, 2020, 6:38 am

All true Maureen. Unfortunately, we couldn't execute him, which would be the only way to prevent him from continuing his criminal life. He'll now be living in an area of the world that not only tolerates that behavior, it actually seems to encourage it.
Jesus Christ, it was fake wine. Chill out.
What, is English an issue for you? Maureen's comment was that Rudy will be in an area of the world that will finance his return to faking wines, with 10 years of technology advancement to assist him. My satirical comment essentially agreed with her, because there were no practical alternatives to the punishment he received for his crimes. Lighten up Francis.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8888 Post by Don Cornwell » November 7th, 2020, 2:22 pm

Rudy Kurniawan was released from prison into ICE custody yesterday (November 6). He was taken to the ICE El Paso detention center. A screen shot from the ICE website is below. The ICE website lists Rudy's country of birth as Indonesia. It is my understanding that Rudy will be deported to Indonesia.

Image
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8889 Post by Victor Hong » November 7th, 2020, 6:57 pm

Don Cornwell wrote:
November 7th, 2020, 2:22 pm
Rudy Kurniawan was released from prison into ICE custody yesterday (November 6). He was taken to the ICE El Paso detention center. A screen shot from the ICE website is below. The ICE website lists Rudy's country of birth as Indonesia. It is my understanding that Rudy will be deported to Indonesia.

Image
John Kapon, Allen Meadows, and I were not notified in advance, to say good-bye in person. Disappointing.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8890 Post by Rich K0rz€nk0 » November 7th, 2020, 8:12 pm

Victor Hong wrote:
November 7th, 2020, 6:57 pm
Don Cornwell wrote:
November 7th, 2020, 2:22 pm
Rudy Kurniawan was released from prison into ICE custody yesterday (November 6). He was taken to the ICE El Paso detention center. A screen shot from the ICE website is below. The ICE website lists Rudy's country of birth as Indonesia. It is my understanding that Rudy will be deported to Indonesia.

Image
John Kapon, Allen Meadows, and I were not notified in advance, to say good-bye in person. Disappointing.
I'm sure you can send him a nice card. He'll understand.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8891 Post by Victor Hong » November 8th, 2020, 6:07 pm

I can send a fake Hallmark greeting card, with according well-wishes.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8892 Post by Br1an Th0rne » November 11th, 2020, 3:46 am

Interesting article on Rudy’s current status. https://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2020/11 ... fraud-saga

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8893 Post by David Glasser » November 11th, 2020, 5:49 am

Br1an Th0rne wrote:
November 11th, 2020, 3:46 am
Interesting article on Rudy’s current status. https://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2020/11 ... fraud-saga
In asking for information about Kurniawan's potential deportation, Wine-Searcher has gotten a weird runaround from ICE. An ICE spokesperson first claimed not to be able to identify Kurniawan, even though Wine-Searcher sent his name and Bureau of Prisoners register number, which should lead ICE immediately to all the US government's information about him. The next day an ICE spokesperson claimed he wasn't in ICE custody, though the timing of that email makes it likely that he was.

On Monday, ICE said it was researching our query. So we waited another day to publish this. But we received no further response Tuesday: Not "ICE doesn't give out that information", or some other ordinary bureaucratic denial that reporters are accustomed to. These professions of ignorance by an official government spokesperson and serial dodging of a simple question are actually very unusual.
[rofl.gif] [rofl.gif] [rofl.gif]
This is ICE you’re dealing with, Blake...

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8894 Post by J a y H a c k » November 12th, 2020, 7:07 pm

Facebook just told me that I might know a guy named Rudy Kurniawan and suggested I friend him. Some of you are already his Facebook friends. I am not, but some of the comments on this page or wall or whatever you call it are funny. "If you can't make it, fake it."
Yes, that's a DM of 1978 Mouton!

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8895 Post by D@ve D y r 0 f f » November 12th, 2020, 7:25 pm

Jay, I just came here to post the same thing about FB. Seems RK and I have three mutual “friends,” some more sarcastic than others.

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8896 Post by Mel Hill » November 12th, 2020, 7:34 pm

Joke account, let's see how much gas he or she has in the tank. I'm betting on not too much.
but, I'm along for the ride...

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8897 Post by Victor Hong » November 12th, 2020, 7:36 pm

May the ISIS warriors in Indonesia prosecute him accordingly for his love of alcoholic beverages.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8898 Post by Paul Jaouen » November 13th, 2020, 5:05 am

J a y H a c k wrote:
November 12th, 2020, 7:07 pm
Facebook just told me that I might know a guy named Rudy Kurniawan and suggested I friend him. Some of you are already his Facebook friends. I am not, but some of the comments on this page or wall or whatever you call it are funny. "If you can't make it, fake it."
Same here. I was surprised at some of the people I know that were friends with him.
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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8899 Post by Izzy Nosnik » November 13th, 2020, 6:43 am

It's a parody account made by one of the "Wine Knerds United". Along with "Jabroni Suckles" and a few others, they can be funny from time to time.

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Re: RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

#8900 Post by J a y H a c k » November 13th, 2020, 8:01 am

Izzy Nosnik wrote:
November 13th, 2020, 6:43 am
It's a parody account made by one of the "Wine Knerds United". Along with "Jabroni Suckles" and a few others, they can be funny from time to time.
I always thought it was Heywood Djablohmi.
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