TN: Northern Rhones

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wspohn
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TN: Northern Rhones

#1 Post by wspohn » February 29th, 2020, 2:38 pm

Blind tasting notes Feb. 28, 2016

Northern Rhone theme, with Southern Rhone allowed only for whites and good ringers invited.

Laurent-Perrier Champagne Grand Siècle Iteration 24 Grande Cuvée – this one was based on the 2006, 2004, and 2002 vintages. Excellent nose, smooth crisp entry, very good.

2010 Domaine de la Solitude Châteauneuf-du-Pape Blanc – showing a bit of colour now, and a fairly ripe nose of peach/apricot. Excellent mouth feel. Good showing.

2015 Domaine Auguste Clape St. Péray – citrus nose, oily mouth feel then switching more to pear in a clean finish. Very nice.

2016 Cave St. Pierre Syrah Réserve des Administrateurs – my wine and what turned out to be a very good ringer. As long as no one asked if it was French, I was good – and someone asked if it was a Northern Rhone and of course I correctly said yes, as the Valais in Switzerland is indeed further up the Rhone River. Fairly dark and showing a good syrah nose with notable black pepper, it smooth on palate, almost elegant and had ample soft tannins.

2014 Domaine Marsanne St. Joseph – dark wine with lightening edges. A nose of black pepper, blood/iron and dark cherry which added a meaty component as it opened up. Smooth in mouth and with soft tannin at the end.

2012 Rene Rostaing Côte-Rôtie Cuvée Classique Ampodium – more pepper and blood in this nose with nice roasted meat notes. A bit of thyme and black olive crept in toward the end. Warm and inviting but should hold for years.

1990 M. Chapoutier Hermitage La Sizeranne – I was interested in this one (after it had been identified) as Ii still have some in the cellar. A rather exotic nose with anise and leather, juicy on palate and a long finish with good balance. At peak and will hold for years.

2011 Alain Voge Cornas Les Chailles – surprisingly ripe sweet nose, with faint metallic hints, red fruit in the mouth and clean acidity, medium length.

2014 Domaine Vincent Paris Cornas Granit 30 – lead pencil and white pepper nose a tad volatile, middle weight and persistent. Pretty good.

2003 M. Chapoutier Cornas – still fairly dark, with a nicely perfumed nose of plum, and a fairly solid middle. Bit shirt but not too bad for that vintage.

2009 Château Rieussec – zowie! What a way to finish up. Tropical fruit nose with some botrytis, and on palate sweet but balanced, delicious, long and very well balanced. I intend to hold mine for a few more years!
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#2 Post by Ramon C » February 29th, 2020, 4:12 pm

Have had most of the Northern Rhone producers in earlier vintages. Not that surprised that the non-Northern Rhone (go Rieussec!) won in this one.
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#3 Post by Greg K » March 1st, 2020, 6:38 am

Ramon C wrote:
February 29th, 2020, 4:12 pm
Have had most of the Northern Rhone producers in earlier vintages. Not that surprised that the non-Northern Rhone (go Rieussec!) won in this one.
Yeah.....I’ve literally poured most of the 1990 Sizeranne down the drain because no one liked it.
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#4 Post by wspohn » March 1st, 2020, 8:17 am

OTOH, I have slowly worked my way through almost a case of 1993 La Sizeraine, some good some not so much, and the last one I opened was the best I have ever tasted.
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#5 Post by Greg K » March 1st, 2020, 10:20 am

wspohn wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 8:17 am
OTOH, I have slowly worked my way through almost a case of 1993 La Sizeraine, some good some not so much, and the last one I opened was the best I have ever tasted.
To each their own!
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#6 Post by Gerhard P. » March 3rd, 2020, 8:30 am

wspohn wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 8:17 am
OTOH, I have slowly worked my way through almost a case of 1993 La Sizeraine, some good some not so much, and the last one I opened was the best I have ever tasted.
Greg K wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 6:38 am

Yeah.....I’ve literally poured most of the 1990 Sizeranne down the drain because no one liked it.
1993 was the worst vintage at least in the 90ies, but most probably between 1980 and 2002 ... so this was obviously a good job ...

1990 is definitely much much better ... and I´ve enjoyed 4 or 5 bottles so far ... not a really great Cote-Rotie but usually excellent to outstanding. If it was to pour down the drain it was a flawed patch ... (imho).

I would always rebuy it if in good condition and reasonably priced ...

BTW: in 1997 I tried to collect as many different Cote-Roties as possible sur place for a tasting. It turned out that many producers were suspicious because the "Revue du Vin de France" - after neglecting the Appellation for many years - did eventually a comprehensive report, and chose the disastrous 1993 vintage ... the results were equally catastrophic ... and many growers were furious ...
(I mean imagine a report about Bordeaux ... using the 2013 vintage only ...)
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#7 Post by Greg K » March 3rd, 2020, 8:34 am

There was absolutely nothing flawed about the 1990 Sizeranne, it was just a not very good bottle of Hermitage (it is not Côte Rotie). Chapoutier wines aren’t very good imho.
Last I checked, Gilman gave it a 78. My palate doesn’t always align with John’s (though it does often), but he’s spot on in this case.
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#8 Post by wspohn » March 3rd, 2020, 8:51 am

I have always preferred Jaboulet to Chapoutier, but have had some pleasant surprises with Chapoutier including their basic 1995 Cornas, which was quite presentable and the Ermitage Les Greffieux which in some vintges excels. And their Crozes, Meysonnierrs has been a best buy in the last couple of vintages.

Sadly, I am a bit uncertain about my old favourite Jaboulet after the buy out by the Freys. Wish I still had some 78s left - it vied with Chave for best of the vintage.
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#9 Post by Jay Miller » March 3rd, 2020, 9:10 am

Greg K wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 8:34 am
There was absolutely nothing flawed about the 1990 Sizeranne, it was just a not very good bottle of Hermitage (it is not Côte Rotie). Chapoutier wines aren’t very good imho.
Last I checked, Gilman gave it a 78. My palate doesn’t always align with John’s (though it does often), but he’s spot on in this case.
and I've often commented that Chapoutier makes some of the most boring wines in the northern Rhone.
Ripe fruit isn't necessarily a flaw.

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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#10 Post by A. So » March 3rd, 2020, 9:35 am

Jay Miller wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 9:10 am
Greg K wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 8:34 am
There was absolutely nothing flawed about the 1990 Sizeranne, it was just a not very good bottle of Hermitage (it is not Côte Rotie). Chapoutier wines aren’t very good imho.
Last I checked, Gilman gave it a 78. My palate doesn’t always align with John’s (though it does often), but he’s spot on in this case.
and I've often commented that Chapoutier makes some of the most boring wines in the northern Rhone.
Chapootier is the poster child for the exercise of eminent domaine [sic]. The INAO should seize the vineyards and give them to someone who knows how to make wine (e.g. Chave).
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#11 Post by Gerhard P. » March 3rd, 2020, 1:21 pm

Greg K wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 8:34 am
There was absolutely nothing flawed about the 1990 Sizeranne, it was just a not very good bottle of Hermitage (it is not Côte Rotie). Chapoutier wines aren’t very good imho.
....
Yes, sure, my mistake ... a mental leap maybe due to holding a bottle of Chapoutier 1990 Cote-Rotie in my hands two days ago.

Reg. 1990 Sizeranne in particular and Chapoutier generally I disagree - and I have the feeling that it is simply an aversion against the style - which isn´t very traditional ...

Your bottle was bad, my bottle(s) were good ... so I see 3 possibilities:
1) shipping/storing issues
2) there are different bottlings for the USA (or wherever) and France (where I bought mine)
3) different views about what´s good - what´s bad ...

I looked at my notes, and I gave the last Sizeranne 1990 bottle 91 points ... definitely nothing for the sink ...

Moreover I have opened a lot of Chapoutier bottles, not only Sizeranne, in my tastings, and when the bottle was sound it usually was apreciated by the group ... incl. the 1990 and 1991 Sizerannes ... but also other cuvées like Le Pavillon, La Mordoree, Barbe Rac etc.
It´s not my absolute favorite style in the Rhone, but also not rubbish wines ... this is simply wrong and exaggerated ... (I guess due to personal aversions).

I will not participate in useless discussions about modern versus traditinal styles etc. anymore ... there are different styles and different tastes ...
Jay Miller wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 9:10 am

and I've often commented that Chapoutier makes some of the most boring wines in the northern Rhone.
... but your comment is only one personal opinion, even if some people will be d´accords ... my opinion is different and as valuable as yours ...
A. So wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 9:35 am

Chapootier is the poster child for the exercise of eminent domaine [sic]. The INAO should seize the vineyards and give them to someone who knows how to make wine (e.g. Chave).
That really doesn´t matter at all, because all wines are worth 93 points ...
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#12 Post by Greg K » March 3rd, 2020, 1:32 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 1:21 pm
Greg K wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 8:34 am
There was absolutely nothing flawed about the 1990 Sizeranne, it was just a not very good bottle of Hermitage (it is not Côte Rotie). Chapoutier wines aren’t very good imho.
....
Yes, sure, my mistake ... a mental leap maybe due to holding a bottle of Chapoutier 1990 Cote-Rotie in my hands two days ago.

Reg. 1990 Sizeranne in particular and Chapoutier generally I disagree - and I have the feeling that it is simply an aversion against the style - which isn´t very traditional ...

Your bottle was bad, my bottle(s) were good ... so I see 3 possibilities:
1) shipping/storing issues
2) there are different bottlings for the USA (or wherever) and France (where I bought mine)
3) different views about what´s good - what´s bad ...

I looked at my notes, and I gave the last Sizeranne 1990 bottle 91 points ... definitely nothing for the sink ...

Moreover I have opened a lot of Chapoutier bottles, not only Sizeranne, in my tastings, and when the bottle was sound it usually was apreciated by the group ... incl. the 1990 and 1991 Sizerannes ... but also other cuvées like Le Pavillon, La Mordoree, Barbe Rac etc.
It´s not my absolute favorite style in the Rhone, but also not rubbish wines ... this is simply wrong and exaggerated ... (I guess due to personal aversions).

I will not participate in useless discussions about modern versus traditinal styles etc. anymore ... there are different styles and different tastes ...
Jay Miller wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 9:10 am

and I've often commented that Chapoutier makes some of the most boring wines in the northern Rhone.
... but your comment is only one personal opinion, even if some people will be d´accords ... my opinion is different and as valuable as yours ...
A. So wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 9:35 am

Chapootier is the poster child for the exercise of eminent domaine [sic]. The INAO should seize the vineyards and give them to someone who knows how to make wine (e.g. Chave).
That really doesn´t matter at all, because all wines are worth 93 points ...
I love it. When I call a wine bad, I am "simply wrong and exaggerated". But your opinions are just as valid as everyone else's. [rofl.gif]
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#13 Post by Gerhard P. » March 3rd, 2020, 1:41 pm

THIS
Greg K wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 8:34 am
... Chapoutier wines aren’t very good imho.
...
was exaggerated (imho) ... but of course you are entitled to your ho ...
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#14 Post by Greg K » March 3rd, 2020, 1:58 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 1:41 pm
THIS
Greg K wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 8:34 am
... Chapoutier wines aren’t very good imho.
...
was exaggerated (imho) ... but of course you are entitled to your ho ...
No, it's not exaggerated, because it's clearly qualified as my opinion. My opinion is that Chapoutier wines aren't very good.
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#15 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » March 3rd, 2020, 2:08 pm

I wish they were just boring. I think they are worse. But that’s just me.

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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#16 Post by Ramon C » March 3rd, 2020, 5:11 pm

Worse than boring.

Something that I wouldn't want to serve to wine-knowledgeable guests.
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#17 Post by MikeL238 » March 3rd, 2020, 6:00 pm

Chapoutier really that bad? I've just started getting into Northern Rhones so excuse my ignorance, but damn...I wish I had checked this board before I placed my bids on this week's auction!
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#18 Post by Nick Ellis » March 3rd, 2020, 7:25 pm

Mike:

I think they are a little bit modern and I’ve been underwhelmed by the few bottles I’ve tried. Please see the link below to see what Davy Strange thinks:

http://elitistreview.com/2011/01/08/a-g ... producers/

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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#19 Post by MikeL238 » March 3rd, 2020, 8:17 pm

Nick Ellis wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 7:25 pm
Mike:

I think they are a little bit modern and I’ve been underwhelmed by the few bottles I’ve tried. Please see the link below to see what Davy Strange thinks:

http://elitistreview.com/2011/01/08/a-g ... producers/
What a brilliant article! I thoroughly enjoyed reading that haha. Going to have to try and look for some of the producers he suggested. Thanks Nick!
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#20 Post by Jayson Cohen » March 3rd, 2020, 9:25 pm

Ramon C wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 5:11 pm
Worse than boring.

Something that I wouldn't want to serve to wine-knowledgeable guests.
That’s spot on. I do think Michel’s grandparents were good winemakers in their day, but I’ve only had a few of those old Chapoutier wines. With his holdings the potential of this domaine is squandered year after year. IMO.

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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#21 Post by James Billy » March 3rd, 2020, 9:36 pm

Chapoutier is the Dr Loosen of the Rhone.

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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#22 Post by IlkkaL » March 3rd, 2020, 11:15 pm

Nick Ellis wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 7:25 pm
Mike:

I think they are a little bit modern and I’ve been underwhelmed by the few bottles I’ve tried. Please see the link below to see what Davy Strange thinks:

http://elitistreview.com/2011/01/08/a-g ... producers/
That was a fun read as his writings often tend to be but I cannot say I agree with all of it despite likely having somewhat similar preferences. I certainly would not steer clear of Rostaing's wines (if the price is right) and Sorrel's 2011 Hermitage Le Gréal was exquisite a few years back. Additionally a lot has happened in the Northern Rhône since 2011 and there are now lots of exciting young growers making superb wines up and down the valley (although less so in Hermitage) so anyone willing to spend a little time in the region with an open mind will be surprised in the most positive way.
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#23 Post by Robert Sand » March 4th, 2020, 5:51 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 2:08 pm
I wish they were just boring. I think they are worse. But that’s just me.
MikeL238 wrote:
March 3rd, 2020, 6:00 pm
Chapoutier really that bad? I've just started getting into Northern Rhones so excuse my ignorance, but damn...I wish I had checked this board before I placed my bids on this week's auction!
I´m slightly astonished about the hate that Chapoutier receives here [scratch.gif]

For what it´s worth I had the Hermitage La Sizeranne 1995 last weekend, together with three more aged Hermitage, and it was very typical and better or at least as good as La Chapelle 1995, but in a different less traditional style. The Colombier 1998, much praised in the article cited above, did not really convince, it was quite redfruited and bright, with a lactic note not really to our liking, and hard to recognize as Hermitage. The star was Chave 1996 which is no great surprise, but it´s a great Hermitage, only at the beginning of maturity, better in 5 to 10 years.

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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#24 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » March 4th, 2020, 5:59 am

Classic Davy!
I think it is worth warning you about a few producers worth avoiding like dysentery. For some reason Chapoutier do not get the press they deserve. They deserve to be panned for making piss-boring wines of utter tedium and yet no one seems brave enough to stand up and say this. At the 2005 Hermitage tasting I mentioned I tried their range of hair-curlingly pricey prestige cuvees and was staggered by their barefaced cheek at charging such bonkers amounts of money for markedly tedious, depressingly dimensionless wines. I was so appalled I’m afraid I suggested to one of the Chapoutier brothers that it was a shame his wine-making skills were so utterly eclipsed by his marketing ability.

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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#25 Post by Nick Ellis » March 4th, 2020, 6:36 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
March 4th, 2020, 5:59 am
Classic Davy!
I think it is worth warning you about a few producers worth avoiding like dysentery. For some reason Chapoutier do not get the press they deserve. They deserve to be panned for making piss-boring wines of utter tedium and yet no one seems brave enough to stand up and say this. At the 2005 Hermitage tasting I mentioned I tried their range of hair-curlingly pricey prestige cuvees and was staggered by their barefaced cheek at charging such bonkers amounts of money for markedly tedious, depressingly dimensionless wines. I was so appalled I’m afraid I suggested to one of the Chapoutier brothers that it was a shame his wine-making skills were so utterly eclipsed by his marketing ability.
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#26 Post by James Billy » March 4th, 2020, 2:18 pm

Hilarious!

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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#27 Post by c fu » March 4th, 2020, 2:30 pm

You know what's worse than CHapoutier's reds? Their whites. *shivers down my spine*
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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#28 Post by Nick Ellis » March 4th, 2020, 5:47 pm

c fu wrote:
March 4th, 2020, 2:30 pm
You know what's worse than CHapoutier's reds? Their whites. *shivers down my spine*
So true. My local supermarket had the 2014 Chapoutier La Bernadine priced as generic CdR. I think the CdR might have been better.

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Re: TN: Northern Rhones

#29 Post by A. So » March 4th, 2020, 6:50 pm

c fu wrote:
March 4th, 2020, 2:30 pm
You know what's worse than CHapoutier's reds? Their whites. *shivers down my spine*
Trigger alert that shit. Gag
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