US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

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Sh@n A
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#101 Post by Sh@n A » October 3rd, 2019, 6:55 am

Anyone have a sense for expedited shipping cost from Paris or London per case? I literally just paid for 3 cases out of Paris and was about to purchase 3 cases of out of London..

As far as I can tell:
* 10/14/19 is a key date. The WTO Dispute Settlement Body still needs to authorize the U.S. decision, and the U.S. has asked for a special meeting on 10/14/19 to obtain. In theory, this date could be pushed back or a source of negotiations, but the nature of the date is the date of certifying the U.S. decision.
* It does not feel like negotiation is the path. EU so far has said they will retaliate with more tariffs, which the U.S. said they would respond to in kind - rather than EU offering to negotiate. Meanwhile, the EU is already planning to tariff US exports in early 2020 for Boeing subsidies once they get their Boeing ruling. And Trump was already considering tariffing EU autos by end of this year, of which EU has already identified tariffs on $40BN US exports ready to go. Given the EU is already planning tariffs on US goods, this does not feel like the decision to tariff is driven by the US independently.
/ @ g r @ \

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#102 Post by Richard T r i m p i » October 3rd, 2019, 6:55 am

Frank Murray III wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 4:44 pm
Richard, cool avatar. Inspired me to change mine, thank you.
Cheers Frank. Nothing like a happy dog to distract you from the sting of a pending 25% wine & cheese tariff.

RT

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#103 Post by Kenneth K » October 3rd, 2019, 7:02 am

When WTO decides in the spring if US has subsidized EU already have a list of goods made in the US to be heavily import taxed.
Amongst these are a range of sparkling and white wine, the list can be seen here: https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/ ... 157861.pdf

Also have in mind that there is nearly $200 billion gap between EU and USA in difference on import in EU's favor.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#104 Post by etomasi » October 3rd, 2019, 7:06 am

Whelp,

This sucks. Anyone want to go in on a storage locker in the EU, then slowly ferry them back on flights?
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#105 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » October 3rd, 2019, 7:12 am

Tom G l a s g o w wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:29 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:06 am
Re futures, isn’t the whole point of futures contracts to insure you against unexpected changes in price? Seems pretty useless if the merchant then refuses to absorb them
Price changes in the market are what you’re buying protection from, not regulatory changes. Read the terms of your contract. Also, note that prices could be negatively effected, but not if you’re locked in with futures.
I don't buy futures any more, so have no contract to look at, but it seems rather artificial to separate price changes "in the market" from prices changes caused by regulatory changes. Regulations affect prices all the time, public policies affect currency exchange rates, etc. Without an explicit carve out for tariff changes it doesn't seem like a strong case to say "when market prices change due to tariffs I get to change our agreed upon price because I was surprised, but for other changes your price is locked in". Certainly that's not how regulated commodity or agricultural futures markets work.

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#106 Post by John J » October 3rd, 2019, 7:23 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:28 am
So I am now expediting my shipment, paid an up-charge for a thermal liner and morning delivery. Bummer that it's still warm in FL, but don't wanna pay what will be a $500 tariff on a single case.
Yup, Looks like weather wont break for Florida shipping until mid-Nov
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#107 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 8:23 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 7:12 am
Tom G l a s g o w wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:29 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:06 am
Re futures, isn’t the whole point of futures contracts to insure you against unexpected changes in price? Seems pretty useless if the merchant then refuses to absorb them
Price changes in the market are what you’re buying protection from, not regulatory changes. Read the terms of your contract. Also, note that prices could be negatively effected, but not if you’re locked in with futures.
I don't buy futures any more, so have no contract to look at, but it seems rather artificial to separate price changes "in the market" from prices changes caused by regulatory changes. Regulations affect prices all the time, public policies affect currency exchange rates, etc. Without an explicit carve out for tariff changes it doesn't seem like a strong case to say "when market prices change due to tariffs I get to change our agreed upon price because I was surprised, but for other changes your price is locked in". Certainly that's not how regulated commodity or agricultural futures markets work.
On the contrary, it's perfectly rational. All contracts allocate risks between the parties and, in this case, the sellers generally refuse to assume the risk of new taxes, duties and tariffs. And I think if you check the language when you place a wine futures order, you'll find that there is a carve-out. I know I've seen it before. I suspect you'd find similar clauses in a lot of commodities contracts. Certainly the risks of new taxes etc. must be covered in the standard contracts.

Looking for standard contract language, I noticed this on JJ Buckley's site. Their customers aren't on the hook for a tariff increase, but they risk having their orders cancelled. In no event is JJ Buckley contractually obliged to pick up the cost of the tariffs:
From time to time, the import taxes related to wine change between the time we offer a wine for sale and the time we take delivery of the wine from overseas. In the event of such an occurrence, JJ Buckley Fine Wines reserves the right to cancel your order if the new import taxes would result in a higher landed cost of the wine. In that scenario, we would refund you 100% of the price you paid for the wine.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#108 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 8:25 am

etomasi wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 7:06 am
Whelp,

This sucks. Anyone want to go in on a storage locker in the EU, then slowly ferry them back on flights?
Or wait for a change in policy.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#109 Post by Neal.Mollen » October 3rd, 2019, 8:27 am

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:28 am
So I am now expediting my shipment, paid an up-charge for a thermal liner and morning delivery. Bummer that it's still warm in FL, but don't wanna pay what will be a $500 tariff on a single case.
Wait, shipping from Europe?
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#110 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 3rd, 2019, 8:29 am

John Morris wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:23 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 7:12 am
Tom G l a s g o w wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:29 am

Price changes in the market are what you’re buying protection from, not regulatory changes. Read the terms of your contract. Also, note that prices could be negatively effected, but not if you’re locked in with futures.
I don't buy futures any more, so have no contract to look at, but it seems rather artificial to separate price changes "in the market" from prices changes caused by regulatory changes. Regulations affect prices all the time, public policies affect currency exchange rates, etc. Without an explicit carve out for tariff changes it doesn't seem like a strong case to say "when market prices change due to tariffs I get to change our agreed upon price because I was surprised, but for other changes your price is locked in". Certainly that's not how regulated commodity or agricultural futures markets work.
On the contrary, it's perfectly rational. All contracts allocate risks between the parties and, in this case, the sellers generally refuse to assume the risk of new taxes, duties and tariffs. And I think if you check the language when you place a wine futures order, you'll find that there is a carve-out. I know I've seen it before. I suspect you'd find similar clauses in a lot of commodities contracts. Certainly the risks of new taxes etc. must be covered in the standard contracts.

Looking for standard contract language, I noticed this on JJ Buckley's site. Their customers aren't on the hook for a tariff increase, but they risk having their orders cancelled. In no event is JJ Buckley contractually obliged to pick up the cost of the tariffs:
From time to time, the import taxes related to wine change between the time we offer a wine for sale and the time we take delivery of the wine from overseas. In the event of such an occurrence, JJ Buckley Fine Wines reserves the right to cancel your order if the new import taxes would result in a higher landed cost of the wine. In that scenario, we would refund you 100% of the price you paid for the wine.

John is correct. I’m dealing with this issue right now on billions of dollars in infrastructure and construction contracts, all of which have been impacted by the tariffs. Hard to push that extra new cost on a party that had no control over it, and the tariff was never factored into the price at time of contract formation. The owner almost always owns this additional cost. In a futures wine buying transaction, I would be shocked if the buyer did not own this additional cost.

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#111 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » October 3rd, 2019, 8:30 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:27 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:28 am
So I am now expediting my shipment, paid an up-charge for a thermal liner and morning delivery. Bummer that it's still warm in FL, but don't wanna pay what will be a $500 tariff on a single case.
Wait, shipping from Europe?
UK

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#112 Post by RichardFlack » October 3rd, 2019, 8:34 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 7:12 am
Tom G l a s g o w wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:29 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:06 am
Re futures, isn’t the whole point of futures contracts to insure you against unexpected changes in price? Seems pretty useless if the merchant then refuses to absorb them
Price changes in the market are what you’re buying protection from, not regulatory changes. Read the terms of your contract. Also, note that prices could be negatively effected, but not if you’re locked in with futures.
I don't buy futures any more, so have no contract to look at, but it seems rather artificial to separate price changes "in the market" from prices changes caused by regulatory changes. Regulations affect prices all the time, public policies affect currency exchange rates, etc. Without an explicit carve out for tariff changes it doesn't seem like a strong case to say "when market prices change due to tariffs I get to change our agreed upon price because I was surprised, but for other changes your price is locked in". Certainly that's not how regulated commodity or agricultural futures markets work.
With a futures contract are taxes payable at time of contract, or upon delivery? I thought it was the latter. Especially when only a deposit is paid up front.
Last edited by RichardFlack on October 3rd, 2019, 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#113 Post by Patrick Stella » October 3rd, 2019, 8:34 am

Can anyone provide any insight on what happens with wines that are being imported within the secondary market rather than the primary market? If a wine is being sold ex cellar, through the importer, then the distributor, etc. ok, then we understand the tariff will apply to whatever price the importer paid.

But what happens if, say, Zachy's is trying to import wine owned by a collector in Europe for a sale in NY? What value would the 25% be applied to? A collector who has owned wine for a long time might have a very low basis or may struggle to even know the basis of every single bottle. I imagine that in addition to the economic impact, the logistical impact would be a nightmare if this new tariff requires anyone importing old wine to go though some convoluted process of demonstrating to the government what they paid for it years ago. Or also if they had to argue with customs over the market value of each bottle. Anyone have any answers on this?

One other question: if, at some point in the future, England is no longer in the EU, would French wines being imported from a storage warehouse in London be subject to the tax?
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#114 Post by Brady Daniels » October 3rd, 2019, 8:36 am

Think I’ll just go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for this all to blow over.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#115 Post by Victor Hong » October 3rd, 2019, 8:38 am

RichardFlack wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:34 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 7:12 am
Tom G l a s g o w wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:29 am

Price changes in the market are what you’re buying protection from, not regulatory changes. Read the terms of your contract. Also, note that prices could be negatively effected, but not if you’re locked in with futures.
I don't buy futures any more, so have no contract to look at, but it seems rather artificial to separate price changes "in the market" from prices changes caused by regulatory changes. Regulations affect prices all the time, public policies affect currency exchange rates, etc. Without an explicit carve out for tariff changes it doesn't seem like a strong case to say "when market prices change due to tariffs I get to change our agreed upon price because I was surprised, but for other changes your price is locked in". Certainly that's not how regulated commodity or agricultural futures markets work.
With a futures contract are taxes payable at time of contract, or upon delivery? I thought it was the latter. Especially when only a deposit is paid up front.
All payments are typically upfront. Google Caroline Wine Company.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#116 Post by RichardFlack » October 3rd, 2019, 8:43 am

Patrick Stella wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:34 am
Can anyone provide any insight on what happens with wines that are being imported within the secondary market rather than the primary market? If a wine is being sold ex cellar, through the importer, then the distributor, etc. ok, then we understand the tariff will apply to whatever price the importer paid.

But what happens if, say, Zachy's is trying to import wine owned by a collector in Europe for a sale in NY? What value would the 25% be applied to? A collector who has owned wine for a long time might have a very low basis or may struggle to even know the basis of every single bottle. I imagine that in addition to the economic impact, the logistical impact would be a nightmare if this new tariff requires anyone importing old wine to go though some convoluted process of demonstrating to the government what they paid for it years ago. Or also if they had to argue with customs over the market value of each bottle. Anyone have any answers on this?

One other question: if, at some point in the future, England is no longer in the EU, would French wines being imported from a storage warehouse in London be subject to the tax?
You really think the big brains in the White House have a grasp of that sort of detail. More denarii for the lawyers.

Re Brexit, it would be the stroke of a pen for the US to add explicit reference to UK. The far more interesting question is would they choose to? UK is part of Airbus consortium, so that’s a yes. Post Brexit (if it happens this year [stirthepothal.gif] ) Trump probably wants to support the Johnson, or at least not make a problem for Britain’s brave new world of amazing trade deals, so that’s a no.

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#117 Post by RichardFlack » October 3rd, 2019, 8:45 am

Victor Hong wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:38 am
RichardFlack wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:34 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 7:12 am


I don't buy futures any more, so have no contract to look at, but it seems rather artificial to separate price changes "in the market" from prices changes caused by regulatory changes. Regulations affect prices all the time, public policies affect currency exchange rates, etc. Without an explicit carve out for tariff changes it doesn't seem like a strong case to say "when market prices change due to tariffs I get to change our agreed upon price because I was surprised, but for other changes your price is locked in". Certainly that's not how regulated commodity or agricultural futures markets work.
With a futures contract are taxes payable at time of contract, or upon delivery? I thought it was the latter. Especially when only a deposit is paid up front.
All payments are typically upfront. Google Caroline Wine Company.
Oh here in Ontario with the KGBO, you pay 25% upfront, non refundable. (Used to be 50% , refundable).

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#118 Post by Patrick Stella » October 3rd, 2019, 8:45 am

I'm not asking about the politics of it. I'm asking what the current law says under these tariffs and how the mechanics would work.

If someone imports a big cellar from Europe on Oct 16, with lots of different old bottles, what will customs tell them?
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#119 Post by AndrewH » October 3rd, 2019, 8:54 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 4:58 am
dennis.coronado wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 4:19 am
Robert Sand wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 11:50 pm
Simple: thanks to everybody who voted for Trump ....
This goes back 15 years over a complaint to WTO over EU subsidies to Airbus.
A couple of points. No one on this board is less of a fan of the current regime than me, but this is really not his doing. As indicated, this WTO proceeding has been pending forever (a tit-for-tat European complaint is also pending, we are almost certain to lose that one, and there will be a commensurate increase in tariffs coming back the other way next year).

Moreover, this is positively anti-Trumpian in its approach to trade. Rather than simply declaring a trade war and imposing tariffs, we (i.e., the US government) pursued the lawful process, litigated the case to its conclusion over a course of years, and got permission to levy the tariffs as damages for harm done by the responding countries.

So yeah, this may be the ONLY instance in which thanking Trump voters is misplaced.
Sound analysis, Neal.

This is pretty standard retaliatory tariff fare, something that's been going on for years once the WTO finds illegal subsidies.

That said, it's an entirely peculiar state of affairs where a decision that Boeing was damaged by illegal subsidies to Airbus results in US consumers and European producers of wine, olives, whiskey, and various clothing, etc., bearing the costs of that and the U.S. treasury reaps the benefits. And neither the benefited or the harmed companies get anything out of it. All for subsidies that occurred 15 years ago.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#120 Post by AndrewH » October 3rd, 2019, 8:55 am

John Morris wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 9:50 pm
NED VALOIS wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 9:11 pm
Should I have concerns about price changes on '16 Bordeaux future that are paid for but still in France ?
Yup. If they haven't entered the country by Oct. 15, the tariff will have to be paid.
I don't believe that is correct. The USTR notice is for Oct. 18, which is the earliest it would go into effect. And that's only if the WTO grants the US request for expedited approval on Oct. 14, which would otherwise not occur until Oct. 28.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#121 Post by Pat Martin » October 3rd, 2019, 8:56 am

A.Gillette wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:57 am
Unless a particular merchant is tied to a specific delivery date in the next few months, I assume that they will just delay import of wines purchased on futures to the US and leave their wines in European storage until early next year when the Boeing ruling is delivered. I don't think anyone expects this to be a permanent tariff.
I had the same thought...
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#122 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 8:57 am

AndrewH wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:55 am
John Morris wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 9:50 pm
NED VALOIS wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 9:11 pm
Should I have concerns about price changes on '16 Bordeaux future that are paid for but still in France ?
Yup. If they haven't entered the country by Oct. 15, the tariff will have to be paid.
I don't believe that is correct. The USTR notice is for Oct. 18, which is the earliest it would go into effect. And that's only if the WTO grants the US request for expedited approval on Oct. 14, which would otherwise not occur until Oct. 28.
I wasn't focused on the precise date. I take it you figure that the tariff applies to any wine that hasn't landed by the effective date.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#123 Post by AndrewH » October 3rd, 2019, 8:58 am

J. Rock wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 6:32 pm
David_K wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 5:33 pm
So what is the practical increase on the end-cost to consumers? If a bottle is $50 on the shelf now, and holding all other variables equal (exchange rate, markup, etc.), the next vintage is subject to the tariff, what will next year's shelf price be?
I think the consumer and suppliers will share the burden of the increased cost; however, who takes on what share of such cost will depend on demand elasticity. I imagine the suppliers will bear more of the increased cost in connection cheaper, value wines (or potentially stop selling some of them, depending on their margin), while the consumers will probably bear more of the increased cost in connection to more premium wines.
That seems likely - for premium wines, consumers who want First growths and grand cru, etc. there's really not much in the way of alternatives, and the French can easily sell their production into countries without tariffs, meaning if you want it in the US you're going to pay. For value wines, there are plenty of alternatives for US consumers that won't be subject to tariffs, meaning, as you say, they won't sell to US or will eat the cost of they need to sell production to the US.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#124 Post by AndrewH » October 3rd, 2019, 8:59 am

John Morris wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:57 am
AndrewH wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:55 am
John Morris wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 9:50 pm


Yup. If they haven't entered the country by Oct. 15, the tariff will have to be paid.
I don't believe that is correct. The USTR notice is for Oct. 18, which is the earliest it would go into effect. And that's only if the WTO grants the US request for expedited approval on Oct. 14, which would otherwise not occur until Oct. 28.
I wasn't focused on the precise date. I take it you figure that the tariff applies to any wine that hasn't landed by the effective date.
That's my understanding. I was just trying to clarify the actual dates this becomes effective.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#125 Post by L e o F r o k i c » October 3rd, 2019, 9:00 am

John Morris wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 2:45 pm
Products that may be of concern to Berserkers:

French, German, Spanish and British (!) wine under 14% (note: not Italian, Portugeuse or Austrian)
Single-malt Irish and Scotch whiskies
Liqueurs and cordials
Spanish olive oil and olives
Cows milk cheese from pretty much anywhere in Europe
Spanish and British sheeps milk cheeses (e.g., Manchego)
"Prepared or preserved pork" from anyplace in the EU (presumably covering prosciutto and speck)
Currant and berry fruit jellies
[soap.gif]

Pretty much all the products I buy regular bases.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#126 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 9:02 am

Patrick Stella wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:34 am
Can anyone provide any insight on what happens with wines that are being imported within the secondary market rather than the primary market? If a wine is being sold ex cellar, through the importer, then the distributor, etc. ok, then we understand the tariff will apply to whatever price the importer paid.

But what happens if, say, Zachy's is trying to import wine owned by a collector in Europe for a sale in NY? What value would the 25% be applied to? A collector who has owned wine for a long time might have a very low basis or may struggle to even know the basis of every single bottle. I imagine that in addition to the economic impact, the logistical impact would be a nightmare if this new tariff requires anyone importing old wine to go though some convoluted process of demonstrating to the government what they paid for it years ago. Or also if they had to argue with customs over the market value of each bottle. Anyone have any answers on this?

One other question: if, at some point in the future, England is no longer in the EU, would French wines being imported from a storage warehouse in London be subject to the tax?
Duties are normally imposed on the fair value, I think. I don't think the Customs folks normally quibble if you have a receipt, unless they suspect some attempt to cheat. If you bought wine overseas years ago and didn't keep your receipts, then you may have a problem. Since in most cases, the fair value in the US will be more than you paid, it's always good to have the receipt.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#127 Post by Robert Panzer » October 3rd, 2019, 9:03 am

Ethan Abraham wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:42 am
BenW wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:33 am
Going to be some complicated situations with the likes of Envoyer. They have multiple shipments of some champagnes and provisionally allocate them. Difficult conversation to say “well you had your wine but you didn’t pick it up, so we gave it to someone else and now you need to pay 25% more when the next shipment comes in”.
I don't think champagne is included.
Why don't you think Champagne is included?
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#128 Post by AndrewH » October 3rd, 2019, 9:04 am

BenW wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:33 am
Going to be some complicated situations with the likes of Envoyer. They have multiple shipments of some champagnes and provisionally allocate them. Difficult conversation to say “well you had your wine but you didn’t pick it up, so we gave it to someone else and now you need to pay 25% more when the next shipment comes in”.
Yes, or even simply buying at an attractive price that no longer is so attractive because the wine got hit with tariffs.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#129 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 9:05 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:03 am
Why don't you think Champagne is included?
Good question. My guess is that it's legally in a different category for duties anyway, plus they were limited to $7.5 billion of goods in total.

The real question to me is why Italian wines were not covered. Anything to do with Mike Pompeo and Bill Barr being in Italy this week?
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#130 Post by Pat Martin » October 3rd, 2019, 9:07 am

If retailers are willing and able to 100% refund futures and pre-arrivals impacted by this tariff, that is a much less contentious scenario. I guess much depends on what retailers have committed to the negociants and importers. Sure, we want our wine at the price we originally (thought) we paid for it, but if given the option to back out instead of paying 25% more, the consumer can call it a tie and use their money on something more productive than buying imported wine!

This would actually better achieve what a tariff is suppose to do-- get us to stop buying European wines and cheeses, rather than being stuck paying 25% more to the Treasury.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#131 Post by Robert M yers » October 3rd, 2019, 9:08 am

Patrick Stella wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:45 am
I'm not asking about the politics of it. I'm asking what the current law says under these tariffs and how the mechanics would work.

If someone imports a big cellar from Europe on Oct 16, with lots of different old bottles, what will customs tell them?
I think the previous answer which included in the politics was that, “do you think anyone has even thought of that scenario?” I’m imagining it’s too obscure of an issue that won’t be addressed until it’s a problem. My guess is it will be taxed though. If I had a vintage Citroen and needed a 2nd hand part, I’m guessing that would be taxed irregardless that it’s not new.

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#132 Post by Robert M yers » October 3rd, 2019, 9:09 am

If car parts were also part of tariff structure...
Maybe there’s a line in relation to new/used items. Even though old release wine is not “used” you might make that case for second hand items?
Last edited by Robert M yers on October 3rd, 2019, 9:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#133 Post by Matt K » October 3rd, 2019, 9:10 am

Well this is quite the news. Here's to hoping it doesn't stick for too long.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#134 Post by AndrewH » October 3rd, 2019, 9:13 am

Robert Panzer wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:03 am
Ethan Abraham wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:42 am
BenW wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 5:33 am
Going to be some complicated situations with the likes of Envoyer. They have multiple shipments of some champagnes and provisionally allocate them. Difficult conversation to say “well you had your wine but you didn’t pick it up, so we gave it to someone else and now you need to pay 25% more when the next shipment comes in”.
I don't think champagne is included.
Why don't you think Champagne is included?
Champagne is under a separate tariff schedule line item (2204.10.00) whereas wine (still) is under 2204.21.50. Only the latter is the subject of this tariff action.

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files ... rits_3.pdf
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#135 Post by Alan Rath » October 3rd, 2019, 9:22 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:27 am
Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 6:28 am
So I am now expediting my shipment, paid an up-charge for a thermal liner and morning delivery. Bummer that it's still warm in FL, but don't wanna pay what will be a $500 tariff on a single case.
Wait, shipping from Europe?
Must have found a stash of Ovid over there at a good price.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#136 Post by Pat Martin » October 3rd, 2019, 9:23 am

Ian S wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 7:06 pm
Guess my wife and I can wave bye-bye to Mosel Riesling for a while. [cry.gif]
Time to backfill! German wines don’t seem to appreciate in price much at least in the USA. Auctions are the best option, K&L has heaps of back-vintage German Riesling on auction right now pretty much at release prices.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#137 Post by Anton D » October 3rd, 2019, 9:35 am

L e o F r o k i c wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:00 am
John Morris wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 2:45 pm
Products that may be of concern to Berserkers:

French, German, Spanish and British (!) wine under 14% (note: not Italian, Portugeuse or Austrian)
Single-malt Irish and Scotch whiskies
Liqueurs and cordials
Spanish olive oil and olives
Cows milk cheese from pretty much anywhere in Europe
Spanish and British sheeps milk cheeses (e.g., Manchego)
"Prepared or preserved pork" from anyplace in the EU (presumably covering prosciutto and speck)
Currant and berry fruit jellies
[soap.gif]

Pretty much all the products I buy regular bases.
I am too lazy to check it myself, but it would be interesting to check each of those items and see which states consume them the most.

Perhaps the list was chosen to preferentially tax consumers in certain places?
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#138 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 9:39 am

Patrick Stella wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:45 am
I'm not asking about the politics of it. I'm asking what the current law says under these tariffs and how the mechanics would work.

If someone imports a big cellar from Europe on Oct 16, with lots of different old bottles, what will customs tell them?
Customs will tell them to pay the tariff on the value of the wines. For old wines that can be assessed through various means. I am not going to go into all the potential methods of valuation because it will turn into 6 pages of questions about why, why, why.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#139 Post by AndrewH » October 3rd, 2019, 9:40 am

Anton D wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:35 am

I am too lazy to check it myself, but it would be interesting to check each of those items and see which states consume them the most.

Perhaps the list was chosen to preferentially tax consumers in certain places?
Usually these lists are developed with an eye towards maximizing the pain on producers in certain states/countries. France/Germany/Spain all own a piece of Airbus and have production facilities there, so not totally surprising the focus of the tariffs is on their production, as well as other things that will be chips when the Boeing subsidy case gets decided. Europe meanwhile has said it will target such things as Kentucky Bourbon (hello Mitch McConnel!)
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#140 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » October 3rd, 2019, 9:41 am

Robert M yers wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:09 am
If car parts were also part of tariff structure...
Maybe there’s a line in relation to new/used items. Even though old release wine is not “used” you might make that case for second hand items?
No exception for used. If it's imported the tariffs apply.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#141 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 9:56 am

Pat Martin wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:07 am
If retailers are willing and able to 100% refund futures and pre-arrivals impacted by this tariff, that is a much less contentious scenario. I guess much depends on what retailers have committed to the negociants and importers. Sure, we want our wine at the price we originally (thought) we paid for it, but if given the option to back out instead of paying 25% more, the consumer can call it a tie and use their money on something more productive than buying imported wine!
Nice for you, but a disaster for the middlemen, who have paid for the wine and now have to jack up the price. That's why you should read the fine print on your futures purchases. I'm pretty sure you'll find that the consumer normally does not have the right to back out. At best, there's the JJ Buckley situation, where the merchant has the option to cancel the transaction.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#142 Post by Sh@n A » October 3rd, 2019, 10:04 am

I wonder what retailers that are waiting for shipments to leave France will do... there is no contract for passing through a +25% price increase to a credit card that has already been charged... they should offer (i) free storage abroad or (ii) cancelling the order entirely. But can they absorb the working capital hit from refunding orders? I am slightly annoyed at retailers that haven't fulfilled orders from a year ago!
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#143 Post by GregT » October 3rd, 2019, 10:09 am

John Morris wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 3:51 pm
Patrick Duffy wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 3:11 pm
Lockheed does not make civilian aircraft. Airbus has been struggling in recent years because it is a multi-government entity. Every decision is political, from where the top officers come from to where things will be built and who will be the second and third level contractors. Whether the decision makes sense financially or whether the proposed C-level exec is really the best candidate is very secondary to the decision. I, for one, hate to fly Airbus planes because the overhead space is so limited, compared to Boeing planes.
Lockheed was very much in their sights in the beginning, because one of the original aims in forming Airbus was to create a pan-European defense aerospace company so European governments didn't have to buy their military aircraft from Boeing or Lockheed.

Airbus is not "a multi-governmental entity." It's been publicly traded for a long time. But, you're right that governments have meddled and supported it more than the US government has its American competitors, and there's haggling with governments about where to locate plants within the EU. (The US government does provide a LOT of export financing for sales of Boeing planes abroad through the Export-Import Bank, however. As I recall, most of the Ex-Im Bank's credit went to Boeing purchases.)

Isn't the configuration of overhead storage a choice by the airlines in how they have the planes outfitted, like seats?
I think it is, but it also has to do with the diameter of the fuselage.

I know that the original justification for the Airbus project was in no small part to compete with the big US companies that had defense contracts. But it's one thing to buy finished products from a manufacturer and something quite different for governments to provide seed money to start up a company with the express purpose of competing in the commercial market, then to provide development money, and then to purchase the product you've just paid to develop. That's on the order of the Chinese stealing intellectual property or requiring that it be shared with Chinese companies simply to create competitors to players in the tech industry. The Europeans and the Chinese were pretty clear about what they were doing and why.

Boeing at least has always had commercial input, so I think the argument was a bit weak from the beginning.

In any case, the US airlines exerted a lot of pressure against these tariffs. Delta lobbied very hard because they've just purchased a lot of Airbus planes, and the low-cost companies like Spirit and JetBlue have argued that tariffs would really hurt them, since they like the narrow-body planes. Worse, an airline puts in an order years in advance because unlike cars, the planes are not built and then set out on a lot to wait for customers. So now there's a huge argument over who is going to eat the costs of the tariffs - the purchasers, who contracted for a number of planes at fixed prices, or the manufacturers, who contracted to sell those planes at those fixed prices. Someone is going to lose on those deals.

And ironically, like the Japanese car manufacturers started doing in the 1980s, Airbus produces its wide-body planes in Europe, but it makes the single-aisle jets both in in Europe and at a factory in Mobile, Alabama! So it's a perfect cluster F-up.

But as far as people thinking it's Trump - this was a fifteen year old case that just got decided by the World Trade Organization. It just landed in Trump's lap.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#144 Post by AndrewH » October 3rd, 2019, 10:30 am

GregT wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 10:09 am

But as far as people thinking it's Trump - this was a fifteen year old case that just got decided by the World Trade Organization. It just landed in Trump's lap.
The case is old. The tariff decision is Trump's, though.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#145 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 10:35 am

GregT wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 10:09 am
I know that the original justification for the Airbus project was in no small part to compete with the big US companies that had defense contracts. But it's one thing to buy finished products from a manufacturer and something quite different for governments to provide seed money to start up a company with the express purpose of competing in the commercial market, then to provide development money, and then to purchase the product you've just paid to develop. That's on the order of the Chinese stealing intellectual property or requiring that it be shared with Chinese companies simply to create competitors to players in the tech industry. The Europeans and the Chinese were pretty clear about what they were doing and why.

Boeing at least has always had commercial input, so I think the argument was a bit weak from the beginning.
I don't disagree.

(Someone said Lockheed had nothing to do with this, which is why I brought up the defense justification for the formation of Airbus.)
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#146 Post by John Morris » October 3rd, 2019, 10:36 am

Sh@n A wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 10:04 am
I wonder what retailers that are waiting for shipments to leave France will do... there is no contract for passing through a +25% price increase to a credit card that has already been charged... they should offer (i) free storage abroad or (ii) cancelling the order entirely. But can they absorb the working capital hit from refunding orders? I am slightly annoyed at retailers that haven't fulfilled orders from a year ago!
It all depends on the fine print of the consumer's order. The retailer may well have included language giving it the right to tack on the extra charge to existing purchases.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#147 Post by Patrick Stella » October 3rd, 2019, 10:38 am

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 9:39 am
Patrick Stella wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 8:45 am
I'm not asking about the politics of it. I'm asking what the current law says under these tariffs and how the mechanics would work.

If someone imports a big cellar from Europe on Oct 16, with lots of different old bottles, what will customs tell them?
Customs will tell them to pay the tariff on the value of the wines. For old wines that can be assessed through various means. I am not going to go into all the potential methods of valuation because it will turn into 6 pages of questions about why, why, why.
Thanks, David. So the point is, it's market value, however that is determined. Correct?

Can you comment on the question of whether the situation would be any different if the wines are, say, Bordeaux, so they originated from France, but they are not being imported from France? Ie, a shipment from London? (and whether that would change if, at the time of the shipment, the UK is or is not part of the EU)?

This would have a huge impact on any big auction sales planned for this coming season if the wines are expected to be imported. It also will surely kill whatever light demand there was from US bidders potentially bidding at HK sales and then re-importing the wines. Generally the wine doesn't flow that way anyway, but this will be a further deterrent. Between HK unrest and now eliminating US buyers bidding at foreign sales, it's a pretty stormy environment for the auctioneers.
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#148 Post by Sh@n A » October 3rd, 2019, 11:01 am

John Morris wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 10:36 am
Sh@n A wrote:
October 3rd, 2019, 10:04 am
I wonder what retailers that are waiting for shipments to leave France will do... there is no contract for passing through a +25% price increase to a credit card that has already been charged... they should offer (i) free storage abroad or (ii) cancelling the order entirely. But can they absorb the working capital hit from refunding orders? I am slightly annoyed at retailers that haven't fulfilled orders from a year ago!
It all depends on the fine print of the consumer's order. The retailer may well have included language giving it the right to tack on the extra charge to existing purchases.
I checked a couple sites and did not see any such terms mentioned. Which would suggest there are no outs. But presumably they can hold onto the wine for years... one site mentions "As most of our wines are sourced in Europe, we make no guarantees with regards to arrival/ship dates. Too many factors come into play for us to guarantee a specific arrival date prior to our physical receipt of the wine in our temperature controlled facility." I am not sure
what a commercially reasonable time frame here is.. weather could be up to one year.. but if tariffs are a "factor", then in theory it could what a commercially reasonably view on a tariff hold is... maybe this allows a retailer to hold something up to another year?
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#149 Post by dteng » October 3rd, 2019, 11:07 am

Martin Zwick wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 11:13 pm
GregT wrote:
October 2nd, 2019, 2:42 pm
But Airbus has been directly subsidized for many years. I always wondered why the US just ignored that. And China is and has done the same - directly pump state money into enterprises so that they could compete with other countries.


Don't forget that the WTO will also make a judgement in around 8 months whether USA subsidized Boing.
Ugh my head’s going to go Boing! [swearing.gif] blush
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Re: US to impose 25% tariff on European wine, cheese, etc.

#150 Post by Hank Victor » October 3rd, 2019, 11:13 am

Guess its time to drink more USA....
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