Anyone seen, gotten, or received any 2015 Benetiere yet?

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Nathan,

We are supposed to embrace the rainbow theory of wine aging. The pot of maturity gold is always out of reach.

p.s. 2005 Reynard was brilliant a few weeks ago after it got some air.

[Jayson Cohen]

Nathan,

We are supposed to embrace the rainbow theory of wine aging. The pot of maturity gold is always out of reach.

p.s. 2005 Reynard was brilliant a few weeks ago after it got some air.

If the “pot of maturity gold” mentality is rigid and does not recognize different people (a) have different tastes and preferences and (b) may want and choose to enjoy wines at different stages of maturity, I agree with your sentiment.

I know that Nathan, for example, enjoys certain wines earlier in their maturity than I do, and I respect that subjective difference in our tastes.

On Allemand the 04s and 05s except maybe 04 Reynard (which seemed cranky and somewhat shut down still when I had it within the last year) drink really well now but could still show positive evolution to my taste.

Curious to know other experiences with 04 Reynard.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Everyone has a different taste. What I see way too often is a knee-jerk reaction to opening wines of “too soon!” It happens with Rhône wines. It happens with Zinfandels. The rule of 15 is just a different way of saying the same thing with different words.

[Greg K]

There was an 04 Sorrel Le Greal at this dinner. I fought it was great, but I also thought it wasn’t at its peak (or even particularly close). As is almost always true for wine, YMMV. If you want to open your Jamet young, who am I to stop you?

[D@vid Bu3ker]

It’s actually more about opening bottles periodically to follow the wine through its evolution.

[Greg K]

It’s actually more about opening bottles periodically to follow the wine through its evolution.

Which has nothing to do with the point people are making about the waiting 15 years to open northern Rhônes. If you own a pallet of 2005 Latour and want to open one every two weeks to check in, go for it.

[A. So]

There was an 04 Sorrel Le Greal at this dinner. I fought it was great, but I also thought it wasn’t at its peak (or even particularly close). As is almost always true for wine, YMMV.

One of the wines of the vintage.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

It’s actually more about opening bottles periodically to follow the wine through its evolution.

Which has nothing to do with the point people are making about the waiting 15 years to open northern Rhônes. If you own a pallet of 2005 Latour and want to open one every two weeks to check in, go for it.

If you want to engage in hyperbole, go for it.

[Greg K]

It’s actually more about opening bottles periodically to follow the wine through its evolution.

Which has nothing to do with the point people are making about the waiting 15 years to open northern Rhônes. If you own a pallet of 2005 Latour and want to open one every two weeks to check in, go for it.

If you want to engage in hyperbole, go for it.

If you would like the point made with no hyperbole, very well.

The “rule of 15” has nothing to do with checking in on wines as the develop. If you want to do that, for the intellectual curiosity, and you find the experience edifying, you should. But it’s completely unrelated to the point people are making about waiting for wines to reach sufficient maturity.

[Greg K]

There was an 04 Sorrel Le Greal at this dinner. I fought it was great, but I also thought it wasn’t at its peak (or even particularly close). As is almost always true for wine, YMMV.

One of the wines of the vintage.

I’m counting on it. I think he does really well in “leaner” vintages. It’s a shame the wines tend to be hard to find.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Which has nothing to do with the point people are making about the waiting 15 years to open northern Rhônes. If you own a pallet of 2005 Latour and want to open one every two weeks to check in, go for it.

If you want to engage in hyperbole, go for it.

If you would like the point made with no hyperbole, very well.

The “rule of 15” has nothing to do with checking in on wines as the develop. If you want to do that, for the intellectual curiosity, and you find the experience edifying, you should. But it’s completely unrelated to the point people are making about waiting for wines to reach sufficient maturity.

Actually it is, because wines do not all follow a made up rule from one guy that somehow became an internet wine meme. Following the wines along their journey to maturity is (IMO) more respectful of the differences from wine to wine.

[Greg K]

If you want to engage in hyperbole, go for it.

If you would like the point made with no hyperbole, very well.

The “rule of 15” has nothing to do with checking in on wines as the develop. If you want to do that, for the intellectual curiosity, and you find the experience edifying, you should. But it’s completely unrelated to the point people are making about waiting for wines to reach sufficient maturity.

Actually it is, because wines do not all follow a made up rule from one guy that somehow became an internet wine meme. Following the wines along their journey to maturity is (IMO) more respectful of the differences from wine to wine.

If you want to engage in intentional obtuseness, that’s fine.

[A. So]

There was an 04 Sorrel Le Greal at this dinner. I fought it was great, but I also thought it wasn’t at its peak (or even particularly close). As is almost always true for wine, YMMV.

One of the wines of the vintage.

I’m counting on it. I think he does really well in “leaner” vintages. It’s a shame the wines tend to be hard to find.

Agreed, it's a lusher, slightly more polished style so the leaner years tend to give a little more afwe bent. That said, his are the second best wines from the hill.

[davidlown]

If you would like the point made with no hyperbole, very well.

The “rule of 15” has nothing to do with checking in on wines as the develop. If you want to do that, for the intellectual curiosity, and you find the experience edifying, you should. But it’s completely unrelated to the point people are making about waiting for wines to reach sufficient maturity.

Actually it is, because wines do not all follow a made up rule from one guy that somehow became an internet wine meme. Following the wines along their journey to maturity is (IMO) more respectful of the differences from wine to wine.

If you want to engage in intentional obtuseness, that’s fine.

I would actually say your both right in that 15 years on average is probably the best but David is less obtuse by saying trying over time is the correct thing. But you both may also be saying the same thing more than you realize. Let me give two recent examples.

1) I was lucky to try a 1989 gentaz 4 months ago. Impeccable condition. It was more the color of a red fruited medium burgundy that was translucent than a northern Rhône. Absolute beauty. The first sip and you would of thought the wine was at most 10 years old. It opened and unfurled over 5 hours and unfortunately for me I went to sleep before it hit its apex. Real mistake as this gentaz May of been the holy grail northern Rhône, and I believe with 10-15 more years it will be close.

2) in the beginning of this year I had a 2011 greal. Still young but within two hours it opened up and got really dark and plummy with probably 2 hours time and the bottom of the bottle actually started to have that broken up color that wine at its old age can look and taste like. While this wine was not completely ready I agree this wine probably would of been perfect around year 15 in 5-10 more years.

My personal theory is kind of a combination of the two of you. I try to buy 4 of everything I buy. First bottle to try immediately and then the next 3 I have tried to not touch for at least 15 years. Sometimes I only buy 3 of a wine and then I choose to either not try at all or I still drink one. But if I was lucky enough to have more of each wine I would probably be trying every 3-6 years. I’m not saying my theory I correct as I don’t know the answer but what I’m saying is I think both of your beliefs kind of fit in this thought process a bit.

My point is that while from a generalistic perspective the 15 year rule may be on average statistically correct (like my greal example) it’s not correct for all wines (my gentaz example) and the only way to be successful for all wines is to try them over courses of time and speed or slow down your remaining bottles with individual experience.

[Jonathan Loesberg]

The 15 year rule, espoused by one person on another board (albeit a person with a good palate) was espoused as a somewhat hyperbolically titled rule of thumb. I don't believe it was ever intended to be a claim for every Northern Rhone ever made and it was certainly my never treated that way. This discussion is like watching a bunch of non francophone linguists trying to decide what a Mallarme poem means.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Thank you David. You have better explained what I was trying to convey with my sleep deprived brain. I also try to buy 4 (preferably 6) of any wine I mean to cellar long-term, so that I can get the early look, then maybe peek in once more for a progress report. The last 2-4 are left for the more mature stages of the wine’s life.

Greg seems to still be rather piqued that I opened a 2012 Jamet a few weeks ago, but it was one of four. I won’t be opening another for a good long time.

[ybarselah]

2012 jamet is drinking great now as is gonon 2012

[Robert.A.Jr.]

I love rules. To break them. Every wine and every vintage is different. I like to check in on them during their evolution. And often, I run out before they are perfect, lol. No regrets.

IMHO, many 2011 and 2012 Northern Rhônes are quite pleasant right now.

[Greg K]

Greg seems to still be rather piqued that I opened a 2012 Jamet a few weeks ago, but it was one of four. I won’t be opening another for a good long time.

People drinking their wines however they please never piques me; people's wines, people's drinking habits and the way people enjoy their wines are entirely their business. That's what wine is all about, after all. Enjoying them!
But then, even your trolling and obtuseness doesn't pique me David. I don't really care. Enjoy your Jamet.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Trolling...you really don’t get it. Or are you worth it.

[Greg K]

Actually it is, because wines do not all follow a made up rule from one guy that somehow became an internet wine meme. Following the wines along their journey to maturity is (IMO) more respectful of the differences from wine to wine.

If you want to engage in intentional obtuseness, that’s fine.

I would actually say your both right in that 15 years on average is probably the best but David is less obtuse by saying trying over time is the correct thing. But you both may also be saying the same thing more than you realize. Let me give two recent examples.

1) I was lucky to try a 1989 gentaz 4 months ago. Impeccable condition. It was more the color of a red fruited medium burgundy that was translucent than a northern Rhône. Absolute beauty. The first sip and you would of thought the wine was at most 10 years old. It opened and unfurled over 5 hours and unfortunately for me I went to sleep before it hit its apex. Real mistake as this gentaz May of been the holy grail northern Rhône, and I believe with 10-15 more years it will be close.

2) in the beginning of this year I had a 2011 greal. Still young but within two hours it opened up and got really dark and plummy with probably 2 hours time and the bottom of the bottle actually started to have that broken up color that wine at its old age can look and taste like. While this wine was not completely ready I agree this wine probably would of been perfect around year 15 in 5-10 more years.

My personal theory is kind of a combination of the two of you. I try to buy 4 of everything I buy. First bottle to try immediately and then the next 3 I have tried to not touch for at least 15 years. Sometimes I only buy 3 of a wine and then I choose to either not try at all or I still drink one. But if I was lucky enough to have more of each wine I would probably be trying every 3-6 years. I’m not saying my theory I correct as I don’t know the answer but what I’m saying is I think both of your beliefs kind of fit in this thought process a bit.

My point is that while from a generalistic perspective the 15 year rule may be on average statistically correct (like my greal example) it’s not correct for all wines (my gentaz example) and the only way to be successful for all wines is to try them over courses of time and speed or slow down your remaining bottles with individual experience.

I did not claim the "Rule of 15" is a hard rule people have to follow. No one has to follow any rule. I was the one who brought the 16 Levet blind to dinner, after all. If you want to check in on a young wine, go for it! We all know some vintages are likely to drink young and some never really shut down. Plus, people's drinking windows are different; some people like their wines younger, some older.
The point of the "Rule of 15", which we all break, is just to provide probabilistic guidance on drinking windows from norther Rhones. It's not relevant to checking in on the wine when it's young to see it's development.

[Greg K]

One of the wines of the vintage.

I’m counting on it. I think he does really well in “leaner” vintages. It’s a shame the wines tend to be hard to find.

Agreed, it's a lusher, slightly more polished style so the leaner years tend to give a little more afwe bent. That said, his are the second best wines from the hill.

That's true, though other than Faurie, whose wines are also tough to find, what's the competition, really?

[Jayson Cohen]

I love rules. To break them. Every wine and every vintage is different. I like to check in on them during their evolution. And often, I run out before they are perfect, lol. No regrets.

IMHO, many 2011 and 2012 Northern Rhônes are quite pleasant right now.

2011 N Rhône is a prime example in my book of a vintage that never shut down - at least I haven’t seen one yet personally. And they are so appealing. The shut-down period seems to me to be the main argument for the Rule of 15, obviously not a real rule. If no shut down, the only reason I see to wait is preference for bottle development. To each, her/his own there.

I do think that with what I view as a larger of number of high quality wines made with less sulphur than in the past, simply sitting on a red wine for 15 years could miss a lot of interesting check-in tasting or possibly miss the wine entirely. Or miss just pure enjoyment and energy of a young wine. I’m drinking more and more of these forward wines with serious enjoyment. (Though in certain places like Bordeaux, it’s really not what I want.)

Recent data point. Eric Texier’s (possibly lurking) 2014 St-Julien-St-Alban and Pergaud Brezeme. So damn good right now. When I posted on Brezeme on IG, Eric’s response was - it’s just a baby. He’s right. But sometimes you can’t keep your hands off.

[Robert.A.Jr.]

Another great example is Texier’s 2012 Cote Rotie VV. A wide open, transparent, STG expression of Syrah. Since day one.

[John Morris]

I do think that with what I view as a larger of number of high quality wines made with less sulphur than in the past, simply sitting on a red wine for 15 years could miss a lot of interesting check-in tasting or possibly miss the wine entirely. Or miss just pure enjoyment and energy of a young wine. I’m drinking more and more of these forward wines with serious enjoyment. (Though in certain places like Bordeaux, it’s really not what I want.)

That's a very good point.

[Greg K]

Personally I’ve had a really tough time keeping my hands off my rapidly dwindling stash of 2012 Allemand....

[c fu]

I’m counting on it. I think he does really well in “leaner” vintages. It’s a shame the wines tend to be hard to find.

Agreed, it's a lusher, slightly more polished style so the leaner years tend to give a little more afwe bent. That said, his are the second best wines from the hill.

That's true, though other than Faurie, whose wines are also tough to find, what's the competition, really?

A thread for another time, but is Hermitage the least interesting and most over rated region in N Rhone?

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Hermitage is suffering from having a bunch of prominent mediocre producers.

Crozes is the least interesting IMO.

[Greg K]

Agreed, it's a lusher, slightly more polished style so the leaner years tend to give a little more afwe bent. That said, his are the second best wines from the hill.

That's true, though other than Faurie, whose wines are also tough to find, what's the competition, really?

A thread for another time, but is Hermitage the least interesting and most over rated region in N Rhone?

I think Hermitage is certainly the most overrated, while Crozes is probably the least interesting (though Graillot is making some nice stuff). It’s likely personal though, depending on what you think of Guigal/Chapoutier and Jaboulet. I liked the 16 La Chapelle I had at a tasting this year even though I’m generally not a fan - hopefully the change in ownership will be good for them.
Also depends on what you think of Chave these days......

[Zachary Ross]

Friends don't let friends drink Chapoutier.

[Alan Rath]

I do think that with what I view as a larger of number of high quality wines made with less sulphur than in the past, simply sitting on a red wine for 15 years could miss a lot of interesting check-in tasting or possibly miss the wine entirely. Or miss just pure enjoyment and energy of a young wine. I’m drinking more and more of these forward wines with serious enjoyment. (Though in certain places like Bordeaux, it’s really not what I want.)

That's a very good point.

What do you think the presence or absence of sulfur does to the evolution of a wine? My presumption is very little, except that an absence of sulfur makes a wine more susceptible to a slightly weaker cork, or to bacterial contamination with less than optimum storage. My most recent data point was a 2004 Allemand Sans Soufre, which drank very nicely but was far, far too young.

[John Morris]

Sulfur dioxide is an antioxidant. (I'm telling you, the chemist, this?) I assume that's one reason that old German and Loire sweet wines last forever, because they were sulfured out the wazoo. (Sugar also helps.)

(Though it's not an aging issue, I think sulfur also makes a difference even with responsibly handled young wines. As someone who is quite sensitive to mousiness, I find a LOT of low-sulfur wines show that trait. These are current release wines and most of the importers and retailers who promote them are conscientious outfits.)

[Markus S]

Agreed, it's a lusher, slightly more polished style so the leaner years tend to give a little more afwe bent. That said, his are the second best wines from the hill.

That's true, though other than Faurie, whose wines are also tough to find, what's the competition, really?

A thread for another time, but is Hermitage the least interesting and most over rated region in N Rhone?

No.
Over priced?
Certainly.

[Alan Rath]

Sulfur dioxide is an antioxidant. (I'm telling you, the chemist, this?) I assume that's one reason that old German and Loire sweet wines last forever, because they were sulfured out the wazoo. (Sugar also helps.)

John, I was just trying to understand your "good point" comment in response to the low-sulfur wines.

[vincentz]

I am going to with dlown, as I follow a similar purchasing pattern 4 or 5-6 allowing for enjoy one early and other over time. No self advocating for palate or opinion of value, simply a method allowing for evolution and observation.

[Nathan V.]

Another great example is Texier’s 2012 Cote Rotie VV. A wide open, transparent, STG expression of Syrah. Since day one.

I agree that this is an excellent wine, but my last bottle in April 2018 was very grumpy.

[DanielP]

I know 2015 is the exciting talk of the day, but is there any information on the 2016s? Theoretically those should've been released this year?

[Zachary Ross]

I'm excited to say that I just received my 2015 Benetiere Cordeloux from Robert. Interestingly and perhaps significantly (?), there is only one label on the wine, the VdF label. The two bottles of Polaner-imported '15 Cordeloux that I have seen had two labels: the VdF label applied over the old (and defunct) Cote-Rotie label. This seems to suggest that there were two distinct groups. I wonder what the story is here.

I'll drink one of these soon and post my reaction.

[Robert Panzer]

I have some of each, some double labelled, some not.
I've drunk two bottles, one was doubled labelled, one wasn't.
They were both damn good to my taste.
I wouldn't put too much thought into it.

[Robert M yers]

I know 2015 is the exciting talk of the day, but is there any information on the 2016s? Theoretically those should've been released this year?

I’d imagine it’s Probably not the best time to offer anything else until the dust settles on this one.

[DanielP]

I popped a bottle this week because I was so curious. Cork was perfect, color was deep violet and did not noticeably change. It needs a long decant/bottle age to come around. I'm in on 2015 Benetiere. This is good shit.

2015 Marie et Pierre Bénetière Vin de France Cordeloux - France, Vin de France (10/22/2019)
Immediately poured half into a 375mL to save in the fridge for tomorrow.

On PnP - Strangely alcoholic on both the midpalate and finish, but this settles down almost immediately. Aromas take time to coax, but definitely a strong blueberry and black cherry component that I've found in 2015 Northern Rhones. There's good depth to the aromatics. Moderate tannic structure developing after the first hour. Everything is in order, albeit not terribly complex.

After 2 hours, Nose continue to open up and develop, giving more floral components. More acid.

3.5 hrs - Black pepper in the nose now. Aromatics are fantastic. I get flashes of complexity, but the palate is mostly one note. I think there's a lot lurking underneath.

24 hrs - Let the half bottle warm up and popped it open. Nose is another step up in intensity and complexity, getting a little more savoury and brambly. Palate is now way more open. This is just straight up tasty. Tannins are nice and almost pillowy.

As I continue to drink this, the tannins are really flexing their muscles. For drinking now, I'd say say, (cue hand-waving), 91-93 points, if you can afford to give it a long, long decant. Otherwise, hold, because it's got a ton of upside.

[Robert M yers]

Also popped a bottle this weekend,

Upon opening it was pretty much undrinkable, no nose and lots of VA. Nothing resembling fruit on the palate and finish was clipped. Set it aside for 4-6 hours and the nose really opened up, nice black cherry notes now coming though and melding better with the VA. It still wasn’t approachable for drinking though.

24 hours later the wine opened up finally to give some midpalate fruit, but I keep getting shut down on the finish. Just something a bit bitter going on there, but the wine was still very fresh.

48 hours was the best glass because it finally mostly seemed to open, yet a hint of oxidation could now be detected. Even still I didn’t find it overly compelling at this point, could have been a cdr as it just didn’t scream northern Rhône. I really wanted to love it but it’s not certainly not for drinking now imo. Hoping that there is something lurking within as it develops.

[Yao C]

Also popped a bottle this weekend

Polaner or Panzer?

[Glen Gold]

I am so fascinated by this thread that I've ordered a couple of bottles from Robert. I gotta know. And in 2030, I'll find out.

[Robert M yers]

Also popped a bottle this weekend

Polaner or Panzer?

P*nzer
Also should note that I had the wine in a wide open decanter for all 48+ hours and it held up just fine to lots of air. My bottle needed at least 18 hours to show anything.

[J. Singleton]

Has anyone thrown it in a blender? Asking for a friend.

[ybarselah]

I'm excited to say that I just received my 2015 Benetiere Cordeloux from Robert. Interestingly and perhaps significantly (?), there is only one label on the wine, the VdF label. The two bottles of Polaner-imported '15 Cordeloux that I have seen had two labels: the VdF label applied over the old (and defunct) Cote-Rotie label. This seems to suggest that there were two distinct groups. I wonder what the story is here.

I'll drink one of these soon and post my reaction.

seems they started labeling them CR, stopped before they were done, and then switched to VdF. Alternatively, they did all and removed some of the labels, relabeled them, and continued. After 7 pages, I do appreciate the admonition of not putting too much thought into it though! lol

[c fu]

Opened two bottles from my recent shipment from Panzer.

Good from pop and pour. Way better than the first bottle I had. Really pretty wines. Lots of fruit but not hot / over ripe/ alcoholic. Even had one open for 36 hours and still showed well - strong acid, light fleshy fruit and good structure.

[Yao C]

Opened two bottles from my recent shipment from Panzer.

Good from pop and pour. Way better than the first bottle I had. Really pretty wines. Lots of fruit but not hot / over ripe/ alcoholic. Even had one open for 36 hours and still showed well - strong acid, light fleshy fruit and good structure.

Oh interesting, thanks for the note. Going to try one in a week or two; what would you say is ideal decant time?

[c fu]

Opened two bottles from my recent shipment from Panzer.

Good from pop and pour. Way better than the first bottle I had. Really pretty wines. Lots of fruit but not hot / over ripe/ alcoholic. Even had one open for 36 hours and still showed well - strong acid, light fleshy fruit and good structure.

Oh interesting, thanks for the note. Going to try one in a week or two; what would you say is ideal decant time?

Based on the last two - decant and just drink