Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

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TomHill
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Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#1 Post by TomHill » September 25th, 2019, 9:28 am

Very interesting article in Grape Collective on Zweigelt wine from Austria:
Zweigelt
Back in the early '30, Dr.Fritz Zweigelt headed the research institute at Kloster Neuburger, tasked to develop new grape varieties particularly suited to Austria. He developed a Blaufrankisch X St.Laurent cross that was particularly good and is now the most widely planted red grape in Austria. He named the grape Rotburger, not a very good marketing name. At the behest of LenzMoser, the name Rotburger was officially renamed to Zweigelt in 1975, in honor of the developer.
It turns out there was a dark side to Dr.Zweigelt. He was a fervent supporter of the National Socialist movement of Germany. When they took over Austria in 1938, he became member of the National Socialist party and espoused their views widely. He was responsible for the purges at Kloster Neuburger that destroyed the careers of many of his colleagues who did not support the Nazi cause. After the war, he was charged w/ treason & warmongering and convicted. His sentence for "warmongering" was subsequently reduced to "oratorical lapses". He returned to Graz & lived out his life quietly, dying in 1964.
As described in the article, there has been some recent detailed research into the wartime behavior of Dr.Zweigelt. There is now a move afoot in the Austrian wine community to remove the name Zweigelt and return it to Rotburger. In fact, some producers (Hannes Schuster, for one) have already renamed their Zweigelt to Rotburger. An official decision is to come in December.
Anyway, a rather interesting article, also touched upon in the "Godforsaken Grapes" book.
So....would you refuse to drink a Zweigelt, now knowing the background of its developer? Would you favor returning the official name of Zweigelt to Rotburger? Would you favor destroying all the memorials to Robert E. Lee in this country?
Tom

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#2 Post by Steen T Olsen » September 25th, 2019, 9:51 am

Wow, interesting story, to say the least..
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#3 Post by Art R » September 25th, 2019, 10:14 am

no, yes, yes
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#4 Post by Markus S » September 25th, 2019, 10:17 am

Well, we gave Egas Moniz the Nobel Prize for Prefrontal Leukotomy, and have rewarded others for carrying out medical abuses in Colonial populations so...to make an analogy, would you forgo medical or psychological treatment today because some of their research informed medicine today? Or should someone work with nuclear weapons in spite of the fact of knowing what those weapons can do?
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#5 Post by Neal.Mollen » September 25th, 2019, 10:24 am

Not sure I see the parallels Markus. No to the question in the title of the thread
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#6 Post by R M Kriete » September 25th, 2019, 11:16 am

Don't destroy history. Use it to teach lessons, both the bad and the good. Right next to that memorial to Lee should be extensive information discussing all of the negative repercussions of his actions. Those who fail to LEARN from history are doomed to repeat it.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#7 Post by J. Rock » September 25th, 2019, 11:20 am

I would love to drink Nazi wine. I'd get to try something new and get satisfaction from knowing they would hate the fact that I'm drinking their wine.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#8 Post by A Rubin Stein » September 25th, 2019, 11:25 am

My grandparents were survivors of the Holocaust; their children, spouses, siblings and parents were not. Growing up, I was told by family members and teachers to boycott German products. Following the Holocaust, Germany paid reparations to survivors and today, Germany is a friend of Israel and seems, at least on the governmental level and many individuals as well, to have atoned for and made up for its terrible past. Boycotting German products does nothing to undo the terrible past. Last week, Austria passed legislation granting citizenship to descendants of Holocaust survivors. That's another step in the right direction of making amends.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#9 Post by Richard Albert » September 25th, 2019, 11:35 am

Nazi origin impact is minimal, IMO. People drive Volkswagens, the world's largest selling brand in 2017, 80 years after it's Nazi inception.
The current push for a name change may be a reaction to the recent rise of Austria's Freedom Party.
They have the horrific Mauthausen camps as reminders, but need to update and bring back the lessons.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#10 Post by Henry Kiichli » September 25th, 2019, 11:38 am

Reichsadler then

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Reichsadler now

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#11 Post by Anton D » September 25th, 2019, 11:50 am

Markus S wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 10:17 am
Well, we gave Egas Moniz the Nobel Prize for Prefrontal Leukotomy, and have rewarded others for carrying out medical abuses in Colonial populations so...to make an analogy, would you forgo medical or psychological treatment today because some of their research informed medicine today? Or should someone work with nuclear weapons in spite of the fact of knowing what those weapons can do?
Nice one, equating Moniz and Zweigelt.

Same motivation, I am sure! [cheers.gif]
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#12 Post by GregT » September 25th, 2019, 12:00 pm

The question doesn't have much to do with the grape though, does it?

I have always known about the origin of Zweigelt and I am happy to drink it. There's no reason to change the name.

Throughout history there have been horrific crimes committed by some people against others. To the people who were exterminated, it really doesn't matter if your killers were supporters or followers of Julius Caesar, Atilla, Ghengis Khan, King Ferdinand, George Armstrong Custer, Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot - you and your family and friends were considered expendable and were exterminated. And as for grapes, well, we drink wine from France and other places where it was introduced by invaders who preferred that you were dead. You can't rewrite the past and the grape surely never cared one way or another. It's just a grape.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#13 Post by Anton D » September 25th, 2019, 12:01 pm

TomHill wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 9:28 am
Very interesting article in Grape Collective on Zweigelt wine from Austria:
Zweigelt
Back in the early '30, Dr.Fritz Zweigelt headed the research institute at Kloster Neuburger, tasked to develop new grape varieties particularly suited to Austria. He developed a Blaufrankisch X St.Laurent cross that was particularly good and is now the most widely planted red grape in Austria. He named the grape Rotburger, not a very good marketing name. At the behest of LenzMoser, the name Rotburger was officially renamed to Zweigelt in 1975, in honor of the developer.
It turns out there was a dark side to Dr.Zweigelt. He was a fervent supporter of the National Socialist movement of Germany. When they took over Austria in 1938, he became member of the National Socialist party and espoused their views widely. He was responsible for the purges at Kloster Neuburger that destroyed the careers of many of his colleagues who did not support the Nazi cause. After the war, he was charged w/ treason & warmongering and convicted. His sentence for "warmongering" was subsequently reduced to "oratorical lapses". He returned to Graz & lived out his life quietly, dying in 1964.
As described in the article, there has been some recent detailed research into the wartime behavior of Dr.Zweigelt. There is now a move afoot in the Austrian wine community to remove the name Zweigelt and return it to Rotburger. In fact, some producers (Hannes Schuster, for one) have already renamed their Zweigelt to Rotburger. An official decision is to come in December.
Anyway, a rather interesting article, also touched upon in the "Godforsaken Grapes" book.
So....would you refuse to drink a Zweigelt, now knowing the background of its developer? Would you favor returning the official name of Zweigelt to Rotburger? Would you favor destroying all the memorials to Robert E. Lee in this country?
Tom
I am sure there are many creepy winery owners and winemakers, so this fact doesn't bother me overly much given we are 80 years down the road and those policies are not publicly promoted by the winery.

So, I would drink the wine.

I don't care if they change the name, or not.

The Robert E Lee stuff...what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#14 Post by dcornutt » September 25th, 2019, 12:04 pm

This is a delicious wine distributed by Louis Eschenauer before he was tried and convicted as a collaborator for his work with Heinz Boemer the weinfuhrer. Made by the ladies of Cheval Blanc during the 1943 vintage for distribution by the Germans. Bought by Bern's steakhouse later. I was warned about it maybe not being up to snuff but it stood up to a gorgeous 1964 Cheval Blanc in finesse and complexity. I had no trouble drinking it.
IMG_3671.jpg
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Yup...

#15 Post by TomHill » September 25th, 2019, 12:11 pm

R M Kriete wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 11:16 am
Don't destroy history. Use it to teach lessons, both the bad and the good. Right next to that memorial to Lee should be extensive information discussing all of the negative repercussions of his actions. Those who fail to LEARN from history are doomed to repeat it.
Couldn’t agree more. Which is why I’m glad Germany didn’t bulldoze Auschwitz after the War. Turn it into a learning experience.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#16 Post by Gabe Berk » September 25th, 2019, 12:23 pm

Volkswagon, Hugo Boss, Bayer...Nazi's.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#17 Post by Victor Hong » September 25th, 2019, 12:31 pm

Given French government collaboration, how about French wine in general?
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#18 Post by Art R » September 25th, 2019, 12:33 pm

Well, Auschwitz was in Poland, and keeping institutions that were actually war related IS a way to study/learn from history. The monuments to Southern rebels were largely erected well post Civil War as monuments to white supremacy. And there are a lot of them. Simply putting a plaque next to each to provide context is fatuous. Rot burger is fine with me.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#19 Post by GregT » September 25th, 2019, 12:38 pm

The Robert E Lee stuff...what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?
It's a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I'm glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn't really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don't want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#20 Post by Anton D » September 25th, 2019, 12:45 pm

GregT wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 12:38 pm
The Robert E Lee stuff...what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?
It's a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I'm glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn't really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don't want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.
I don't mind you defending Lee, I wish he had won.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#21 Post by James Lyon » September 25th, 2019, 1:12 pm

GregT wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 12:38 pm
The Robert E Lee stuff...what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?
It's a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I'm glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn't really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don't want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.
Lee graduated from West Point and had a very distinguished military career including service in the Mexican-American War and later as Superintendent at West Point. Lee opposed secession and as Greg T notes joined the Confederacy to protect his native Virginia.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#22 Post by Neal.Mollen » September 25th, 2019, 1:22 pm

Anton D wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 12:45 pm
GregT wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 12:38 pm
The Robert E Lee stuff...what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?
It's a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I'm glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn't really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don't want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.
I don't mind you defending Lee, I wish he had won.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#23 Post by mark rudner » September 25th, 2019, 1:43 pm

this is about wine, right?

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#24 Post by robert creth » September 25th, 2019, 1:55 pm

mark rudner wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 1:43 pm
this is about wine, right?
No it is not. This is purely political. While the question may be something to discuss, this is not the forum for that.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#25 Post by Anton D » September 25th, 2019, 1:58 pm

mark rudner wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 1:43 pm
this is about wine, right?
Yes, I would drink the wine.

If the current owner was espousing the same vile nonsense, I would not, but currently no public crazy talk and the original crazy person is long gone, so OK by me!

My son says the maker of 805 beer is a kook, but still drinks his beer. We all have our own approaches. [cheers.gif]
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#26 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » September 25th, 2019, 3:43 pm

A Rubin Stein wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 11:25 am
My grandparents were survivors of the Holocaust; their children, spouses, siblings and parents were not. Growing up, I was told by family members and teachers to boycott German products. Following the Holocaust, Germany paid reparations to survivors and today, Germany is a friend of Israel and seems, at least on the governmental level and many individuals as well, to have atoned for and made up for its terrible past. Boycotting German products does nothing to undo the terrible past. Last week, Austria passed legislation granting citizenship to descendants of Holocaust survivors. That's another step in the right direction of making amends.
Well said. Thank you for the post.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#27 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » September 25th, 2019, 3:56 pm

GregT wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 12:38 pm
The Robert E Lee stuff...what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?
It's a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I'm glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn't really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don't want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.
Thanks for posting this. It’s well said and a viewpoint I hadn’t been exposed to. I was familiar with Lee and the complicated choices he had to make, but had never really thought about the civil war as an establishment of a Federal identity ahead of states identity.
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Yup...

#28 Post by TomHill » September 25th, 2019, 3:59 pm

Marcus Goodfellow wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 3:43 pm
A Rubin Stein wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 11:25 am
My grandparents were survivors of the Holocaust; their children, spouses, siblings and parents were not. Growing up, I was told by family members and teachers to boycott German products. Following the Holocaust, Germany paid reparations to survivors and today, Germany is a friend of Israel and seems, at least on the governmental level and many individuals as well, to have atoned for and made up for its terrible past. Boyce plotting German products does nothing to undo the terrible past. Last week, Austria passed legislation granting citizenship to descendants of Holocaust survivors. That's another step in the right direction of making amends.
Well said. Thank you for the post.
Yup, Marcus...totally agree. Very good post by Rubin.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#29 Post by A.Gillette » September 25th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Anton D wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 12:01 pm

The Robert E Lee stuff...what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman...
Well, perhaps not by the accounts of the hundreds of slaves that he owned.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#30 Post by Wes Barton » September 25th, 2019, 4:35 pm

James Lyon wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 1:12 pm
GregT wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 12:38 pm
The Robert E Lee stuff...what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?
It's a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I'm glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn't really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don't want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.
And secession was because the federal government had stopped compelling northern states to enforce fugitive slave laws. So, ironically, and counter to the southern mythology, secession was an act against states' rights. It was an act of desperation in the face of collapsing structural support for slavery, encouraged by promises from the British Empire.

As for Lee, his voice was important when the war ended, essentially saying "It's over, we lost, time to put the guns away and be one country again."

Lee graduated from West Point and had a very distinguished military career including service in the Mexican-American War and later as Superintendent at West Point. Lee opposed secession and as Greg T notes joined the Confederacy to protect his native Virginia.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#31 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » September 25th, 2019, 4:38 pm

Gabe Berk wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 12:23 pm
Volkswagon, Hugo Boss, Bayer...Nazi's.
And don’t forget Krupp. That family armed every Reich to the hilt. Still in existence.

A very. Very worthy read, a true tome of about 1000 pages:



Written by Manchester in 1968, a tremendous historian who spoke with almost all of the family members.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#32 Post by Dan Kravitz » September 25th, 2019, 4:46 pm

To answer the OP questions:
No. Yes. No.

to Anton D, you wrote "I don't mind you defending Lee, I wish he had won."
Can you please clarify?
Do you wish that the southern border of the United States of America was the Mason-Dixon line and that the United States was bordered by a country called the Confederate States of America, which would be a slaveholding country? Do you wish that there were still slaveholding countries? Officially there aren't any, but reasonable estimates are that there are at least 30 million slaves today. I personally wish the number was zero. Do you?

Robert E. Lee was a complicated person, as is every other person. There is much to admire about him as well as much to despise.
He promised his slaves freedom on his death. He lied. Of course, the choice was taken out of his hands, I am happy to say.

Actually I would rather ban Zweigelt the grape than Zweigelt the name. The wines are, IMO, usually Putrid Swill. I've probably tried half a dozen over a few decades. Most were drinkable, a few were not. I've never had one that made me even consider getting another glass or bottle, the whole idea is stomach-churning.

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Well Said...

#33 Post by TomHill » September 25th, 2019, 4:56 pm

Well said, Robert. Totally agree. It’s a personal decision.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#34 Post by Richard T r i m p i » September 25th, 2019, 4:57 pm

No, No, No

Zweigelt is intriguing and often quite tasty. Changing the name would adversely impact producers and confuse consumers who currently buy wines made from the "most widely planted red grape" in Austria. No, I believe Robert E. Lee was a great man who fought for the wrong side. There are too many statues/memorials of military "heroes" intended to glorify the confederacy. They should be reduced, but not all destroyed.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#35 Post by Mike Cohen » September 25th, 2019, 5:26 pm

Robert.A.Jr. wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 4:38 pm

Never forget history, but at a certain point, are public or other major companies to be held accountable for things that happened generations before? A very personal decision for each and every one of us, and that decision is correct for you and you alone. No judgments.
This is pretty much how I feel. That said, I don’t buy German cars. Its out of respect for my mom and grandparents and their feelings. Not because I think todays executives at Audi are bad people.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#36 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 25th, 2019, 5:37 pm

The grapes do not know who created them.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#37 Post by Anton D » September 25th, 2019, 5:40 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 4:46 pm


to Anton D, you wrote "I don't mind you defending Lee, I wish he had won."
Can you please clarify?
Do you wish that the southern border of the United States of America was the Mason-Dixon line and that the United States was bordered by a country called the Confederate States of America, which would be a slaveholding country? Do you wish that there were still slaveholding countries? Officially there aren't any, but reasonable estimates are that there are at least 30 million slaves today. I personally wish the number was zero. Do you?
No comment on slavery was intended.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#38 Post by robert creth » September 25th, 2019, 5:50 pm

So my answer to OP questions are. Yes, Yes, Yes.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#39 Post by Howard Cooper » September 25th, 2019, 6:26 pm

I would drink Zweigelt, but would prefer it be renamed. WW II ended a long time ago and we should not punish people in Germany and Austria for things their grandparents did.

I would get rid of the Civil War statues in both the north and the south, except at battlefields. These seem today to be mostly about sticking it to the other side and we still need to make peace between the north and the south today. Let both sides take down their statues.

If the South had won and been a separate country, I would not be living in a country with Donald Trump as President. I think it is best that the North won, but I would be happy to divide into two countries now.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#40 Post by Jeff Cassetta » September 25th, 2019, 7:08 pm

This thread has gone so wrong regarding R.E.Lee

It's just so easy to judge the past when you're not living it. I find based on past experience that most people that "judge" the behavior of the past don't really know much of the actual history of the time...

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#41 Post by Ian S » September 25th, 2019, 7:24 pm

Victor Hong wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 12:31 pm
Given French government collaboration, how about French wine in general?
Or taking it a step further: Italian wine.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#42 Post by robert creth » September 25th, 2019, 7:38 pm

Jeff Cassetta wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 7:08 pm
This thread has gone so wrong regarding R.E.Lee

It's just so easy to judge the past when you're not living it. I find based on past experience that most people that "judge" the behavior of the past don't really know much of the actual history of the time...
As one of the few blacks on this board, my view of Lee is based of the actual history of the time! That view of the honorable general just doesn’t fly with me. That being said, I think this thread belongs in politics. Very little being discussed has much to do with wine.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#43 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 25th, 2019, 7:43 pm

Agreed. It’s not wine talk. At the very least it’s an Asylum thread, but politics is likely more appropriate.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#44 Post by MikeHill » September 25th, 2019, 8:37 pm

robert creth wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 7:38 pm
Jeff Cassetta wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 7:08 pm
This thread has gone so wrong regarding R.E.Lee

It's just so easy to judge the past when you're not living it. I find based on past experience that most people that "judge" the behavior of the past don't really know much of the actual history of the time...
As one of the few blacks on this board, my view of Lee is based of the actual history of the time! That view of the honorable general just doesn’t fly with me. That being said, I think this thread belongs in politics. Very little being discussed has much to do with wine.
+1 from another black board member. A thread casually discussing how Lee was an honorable gentleman except for the slave thing (apparently nobody knew it was wrong at the time) and the Civil war being about states rights has no business in a wine forum.

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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#45 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » September 25th, 2019, 9:33 pm

MikeHill wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:37 pm
robert creth wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 7:38 pm
Jeff Cassetta wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 7:08 pm
This thread has gone so wrong regarding R.E.Lee

It's just so easy to judge the past when you're not living it. I find based on past experience that most people that "judge" the behavior of the past don't really know much of the actual history of the time...
As one of the few blacks on this board, my view of Lee is based of the actual history of the time! That view of the honorable general just doesn’t fly with me. That being said, I think this thread belongs in politics. Very little being discussed has much to do with wine.
+1 from another black board member. A thread casually discussing how Lee was an honorable gentleman except for the slave thing (apparently nobody knew it was wrong at the time) and the Civil war being about states rights has no business in a wine forum.
Hard to argue that this isn’t a wine thread.

And I agree that regardless of however complicated the choices Robert E Lee had to face or how he comported himself as the war wound down, eradication of slavery and honoring the commitment that “all (wo)men are created equal” is the line between the right choice and the wrong choice.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#46 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » September 25th, 2019, 9:44 pm

Well at least Tom got what he always wants...controversy and people going after each other.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#47 Post by Wes Barton » September 25th, 2019, 10:12 pm

MikeHill wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 8:37 pm
robert creth wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 7:38 pm
Jeff Cassetta wrote:
September 25th, 2019, 7:08 pm
This thread has gone so wrong regarding R.E.Lee

It's just so easy to judge the past when you're not living it. I find based on past experience that most people that "judge" the behavior of the past don't really know much of the actual history of the time...
As one of the few blacks on this board, my view of Lee is based of the actual history of the time! That view of the honorable general just doesn’t fly with me. That being said, I think this thread belongs in politics. Very little being discussed has much to do with wine.
+1 from another black board member. A thread casually discussing how Lee was an honorable gentleman except for the slave thing (apparently nobody knew it was wrong at the time) and the Civil war being about states rights has no business in a wine forum.
Who said it was about states' rights? (I refuted that myth. Don't recall anyone else touching that topic.)
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#48 Post by P@u1_M3nk3s » September 25th, 2019, 10:56 pm

No, yes and yes. I find it completely understandable for Austrians wanting to revert the name back to Rotberger. As to Victor's question about boycotting French wine due to Vichy collaboration, that is truly much more complicated. That formulation ignores the Free French forces and massive resistance during that period, just as the resistance narrative ignores Vichy.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#49 Post by Rudi Finkler » September 25th, 2019, 10:58 pm

I always find it very interesting to read people’s opinions on Germany and its Nazi past –how could it be otherwise-, or on General Lee, but this thread has indeed next to nothing to do with wine talk.
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Re: Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

#50 Post by Chris Seiber » September 25th, 2019, 11:26 pm

Rotburger is a horrible name for a product.

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