Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

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Dinesh Goyal
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Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#1 Post by Dinesh Goyal » August 27th, 2019, 3:05 am

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It seems like over 90s/early 2000s wines of CdP has become highly Parkerized.

It would be great to get recommendations on a few Châteauneuf-du-Pape red producers that are doing more balanced wines. Wines that show terroir, have good acidity and minerality to them, airy on the palette and yet even substance.

I wanted to try a few but didn’t know where to start from.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#2 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 27th, 2019, 4:37 am

First, global warming has changed the wines regardless of the producer. A CdP t 13.5% abv, common in the 90s is a thing of the past. If, however, one is looking for a producer who follows traditional practices and does not seek overripe wines, here is a personal list: Charvin, Ferrand, Pegau, Feraud et fils (until recently, this was Eddie Feraud), Vieux Telegraphe and Bois de Boursan. If money is no object, Rayas also belongs on that list. And there are surely others.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#3 Post by John S » August 27th, 2019, 4:58 am

The list above is a good one. But I would not look for acidity or minerality in CdP. Charvin, Vieux Telegraphe, and Pegau being my regular priced go to ones. Rayas is the most distinctive and pricey. Oh, Henri Bonneau is great but quite different and pricey.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#4 Post by Mike Francisco » August 27th, 2019, 5:30 am

I would add Raymond Usseglio's regular bottling to that list.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#5 Post by Kirk.Grant » August 27th, 2019, 5:39 am

With Chateauneuf du Pape I try to stick to two producers: Vieux Telegraphe & Beaucastel.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#6 Post by Gerhard P. » August 27th, 2019, 6:08 am

Bois de Boursan, also sold as Jean-Paul Versino ...
don't expect a fully accessable wine in the youth, but it will pay cellaring. 1985, 1989, 1990, 1994 (!) ... all enjoyed over the past year, all very fine ... 20 € off domaine ...

Cuvee Felix from old vines is more expensive ...
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#7 Post by Laurent Gibet » August 27th, 2019, 8:13 am

Mas Saint-Louis, Clos des Papes ...
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#8 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 27th, 2019, 8:19 am

I find Clos des Papes, since its handover from father to son, to have gone from the iron hand in the velvet glove to rocket fuel in a velvet glove. But I stopped buying after 04 sp tje style may have changed again. Unless it has changed back, it really is not what the OP was asking for.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#9 Post by Laurent Gibet » August 27th, 2019, 8:26 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 8:19 am
I find Clos des Papes, since its handover from father to son, to have gone from the iron hand in the velvet glove to rocket fuel in a velvet glove. But I stopped buying after 04 sp tje style may have changed again. Unless it has changed back, it really is not what the OP was asking for.
My last visit to the domaine was probant, with, for exampkle, a lovely Clos des Papes red 2013 (btw, the white is excellent too).
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#10 Post by Nathan V. » August 27th, 2019, 9:25 am

John and Jonathan have more expertise here but the only Châteauneuf-du-Pape I buy are the aforementioned Charvin and Texier with an occasional splurge on Rayas if I find it at a good price.

As they both say, no Châteauneuf-du-Pape is going to give you acidity and minerality; however, I find Erix Texier's version to be very aromatic, maybe even more so than Charvin.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#11 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 27th, 2019, 10:45 am

Nathan V. wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 9:25 am
John and Jonathan have more expertise here but the only Châteauneuf-du-Pape I buy are the aforementioned Charvin and Texier with an occasional splurge on Rayas if I find it at a good price.

As they both say, no Châteauneuf-du-Pape is going to give you acidity and minerality; however, I find Erix Texier's version to be very aromatic, maybe even more so than Charvin.
Yes, Texier. It's hard to find and pricey when you do. But it may be closer to what the OP was asking for than any other domaine mentioned as a matter of style. For those in the US, the Weygandt project, Chapelle St. Theodoric is also worth noting.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#12 Post by Nathan V. » August 27th, 2019, 11:02 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 10:45 am
Nathan V. wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 9:25 am
John and Jonathan have more expertise here but the only Châteauneuf-du-Pape I buy are the aforementioned Charvin and Texier with an occasional splurge on Rayas if I find it at a good price.

As they both say, no Châteauneuf-du-Pape is going to give you acidity and minerality; however, I find Erix Texier's version to be very aromatic, maybe even more so than Charvin.
Yes, Texier. It's hard to find and pricey when you do. But it may be closer to what the OP was asking for than any other domaine mentioned as a matter of style. For those in the US, the Weygandt project, Chapelle St. Theodoric is also worth noting.
Agreed. I like the Chapelle St. Theodoric Grand Pin a lot. I rarely drink it though. I think I may drink either a 1998 or 2000 Charvin tonight.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#13 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 27th, 2019, 11:11 am

I like the 98 a lot better. The 00 is quite nice and avoids the fatness of that year, but it's a little on the austere side. His 01, however, is great.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#14 Post by Josh Grossman » August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am

What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#15 Post by Nathan V. » August 27th, 2019, 11:31 am

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:11 am
I like the 98 a lot better. The 00 is quite nice and avoids the fatness of that year, but it's a little on the austere side. His 01, however, is great.
Yeah, I've had a couple of bottles of the 2001 lately. BTW, I should mention that the bottles were a result of some cellar thinning by John S.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#16 Post by Nathan V. » August 27th, 2019, 11:33 am

Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
I don't regularly drink Gigondas (honestly, the grenache based wine I drink the most are Gramenon) except for Gour de Chaulé, which I like a lot. I enjoyed Cayron back in the day, but it has been a long time since I've had a bottle.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#17 Post by Doug Schulman » August 27th, 2019, 12:19 pm

Clos du Mont Olivet, more so than most others (but not their super-cuvee, just the regular CdP). Also, relatively speaking, I'd say Beaucastel. Vieux Telegraphe has been extremely ripe in the past few vintages, so much so that I would not put them in this camp anymore.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#18 Post by T. Altmayer » August 27th, 2019, 12:36 pm

Beaucastel and Vieux Donjon are my two favorites in CDP and I think are more restrained.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#19 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
Yes to Saint Damien. I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s. After that, the ones I drink regularly are Gour de Chaule, Raspail d'Ay, Domaine la Garrigue (alas not available in the US) and a relatively new one, d'Ourea. Oh. also Joncuas.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#20 Post by Josh Grossman » August 27th, 2019, 12:45 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
Yes to Saint Damien. I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s. After that, the ones I drink regularly are Gour de Chaule, Raspail d'Ay, Domaine la Garrigue (alas not available in the US) and a relatively new one, d'Ourea. Oh. also Joncuas.
Give Cayron another try. The last two vintages have been some of my favorite wines. The most herbes de Provence/garrigue I've ever encountered.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#21 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 27th, 2019, 12:49 pm

JLL is worth attending to. I will try them when I am next at the Caveau, in the next week or so.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#22 Post by Doug Schulman » August 27th, 2019, 12:57 pm

Those Saint Damien wines are bruisers. I think they're very well made, but probably not what the OP is looking for.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#23 Post by Josh Grossman » August 27th, 2019, 1:13 pm

Doug Schulman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:57 pm
Those Saint Damien wines are bruisers. I think they're very well made, but probably not what the OP is looking for.
Do you mean the OP is only looking for wines associated with conspicuous consumption?

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#24 Post by D. HEIN » August 27th, 2019, 1:30 pm

Subject to vintage and your cellaring commitment:

Bosquet des Papes
Cabrieres
Pontifical
Monpertuis
Donn Hein

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#25 Post by William Kelley » August 27th, 2019, 1:35 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:45 pm

Give Cayron another try. The last two vintages have been some of my favorite wines. The most herbes de Provence/garrigue I've ever encountered.
Cayron '15 last week was pretty liqueured and super-ripe in style, with nothing that could be described as garrigue. I drank cases of the 1998 as a student, and that was wild and Provencal, but this '15 was a different beast, pace JLL's tasting note. Obviously there's a clientele for that but it doesn't sound like what the OP is looking for.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#26 Post by Mike Evans » August 27th, 2019, 2:07 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
Yes to Saint Damien. I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s. After that, the ones I drink regularly are Gour de Chaule, Raspail d'Ay, Domaine la Garrigue (alas not available in the US) and a relatively new one, d'Ourea. Oh. also Joncuas.
I have an orphan 1998 Domaine La Garrigue Vacqueyras Cuvée Spéciale lurking around somewhere that I need to go ahead and drink (something I probably should have done at least 10 years ago). I’ll try to remember to check the importer strip to see who used to import them.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#27 Post by Chris Seiber » August 27th, 2019, 2:26 pm

I've always liked the style of Vieux Donjon, but I haven't bought it (or any CdP) in recent years, so I'm not sure if it's still the same. The bottles I occasionally open from the mid 2000s have developed very nicely.

One piece of advice would be to consider buying from the cooler vintages there and avoid the ripe vintages. Plus, you'll probably get better pricing.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#28 Post by Dinesh Goyal » August 27th, 2019, 6:41 pm

All

Thank you for your inputs. This is what I was hoping for - get a few ideas on what to try.

Thing that stands out is that there are no clear favorites for the kind of style I like. But i do want to give the region a serious try before I give up.

From the feedback above, it feels like following producers will be a good place to start from:

Beaucastel
Vieux Donjon
Charvin
Vieux Telegraphe

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#29 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » August 27th, 2019, 6:49 pm

Dinesh -

Beaucastel is one of the few that I still buy. If you are also looking for daily drinkers, their Cotes du Rhône is excellent. Recent vintages of 2015 and 2016 are cases purchases.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#30 Post by Paul McCourt » August 27th, 2019, 7:30 pm

T. Altmayer wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:36 pm
Beaucastel and Vieux Donjon are my two favorites in CDP and I think are more restrained.
Two of my faves,also.

Beau is number one with me, though.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#31 Post by Robert Sand » August 28th, 2019, 12:39 am

+1 for Bois deBoursan. very traditional producer, 1/3 price of Beaucastel. Clos des Brusquieres is also good.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#32 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 28th, 2019, 12:50 am

Mike Evans wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 2:07 pm
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 11:13 am
What about Gigondas? While I did get some Pape--my two favorite producers might be Domaine du Cayron Gigondas and Domaine Saint-Damien Gigondas.
Yes to Saint Damien. I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s. After that, the ones I drink regularly are Gour de Chaule, Raspail d'Ay, Domaine la Garrigue (alas not available in the US) and a relatively new one, d'Ourea. Oh. also Joncuas.
I have an orphan 1998 Domaine La Garrigue Vacqueyras Cuvée Spéciale lurking around somewhere that I need to go ahead and drink (something I probably should have done at least 10 years ago). I’ll try to remember to check the importer strip to see who used to import them.
The Domaine les Garrigues Vacqueyrases, like their Gigondases, are long lasting. That 98 should be in fine shape. The Vacqueyras is still being imported, as it has been for some time. It's the Gigondas that has never been imported. They make very little of it and sell it all either at the domaine or at their own family restaurant, Les Florets.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#33 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 28th, 2019, 12:52 am

William Kelley wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 1:35 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:45 pm

Give Cayron another try. The last two vintages have been some of my favorite wines. The most herbes de Provence/garrigue I've ever encountered.
Cayron '15 last week was pretty liqueured and super-ripe in style, with nothing that could be described as garrigue. I drank cases of the 1998 as a student, and that was wild and Provencal, but this '15 was a different beast, pace JLL's tasting note. Obviously there's a clientele for that but it doesn't sound like what the OP is looking for.
Yes, the note surprised me too, but I will check for myself in the near future.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#34 Post by Dinesh Goyal » August 28th, 2019, 2:36 am

BTW Le Clos De Caillou hasn’t been mentioned. I don’t know them but they seem to have good reviews on CT. What’s their style like?

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#35 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 28th, 2019, 4:39 am

Dinesh Goyal wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 2:36 am
BTW Le Clos De Caillou hasn’t been mentioned. I don’t know them but they seem to have good reviews on CT. What’s their style like?
Well made wines, but not in the style you are looking for.

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#36 Post by John S » August 28th, 2019, 4:43 am

Yep, well made but riper in style and some have more new oak. But my experience with these is a bit dated.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#37 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 28th, 2019, 4:48 am

Oak mostly on the whites. But, like the Cambia wines they are, very ripe with tannins polished until they shine.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#38 Post by Robert Sand » August 28th, 2019, 4:50 am

Dinesh Goyal wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 2:36 am
BTW Le Clos De Caillou hasn’t been mentioned. I don’t know them but they seem to have good reviews on CT. What’s their style like?
Clos des Caillou is a vg producer, but quite modern style.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#39 Post by Kris Patten » August 28th, 2019, 6:47 pm

I'd focus on vintage vs. producer. Find cooler years and go with better producers, off top of my head, 99, 01, 04, 08, 11 all had more restrained wines. People will bash Clos St. Jean or others, but I enjoy the wines in cool years.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#40 Post by Jeff Vaughan » August 28th, 2019, 6:58 pm

I like Bois de Boursan, Pegau, Beaucastel and Vieux Donjon, especially in cooler vintages.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#41 Post by P.Sunesen » August 28th, 2019, 8:06 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 4:48 am
Oak mostly on the whites. But, like the Cambia wines they are, very ripe with tannins polished until they shine.


It's Cambie, and he's not connected to Clos du Caillou.

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#42 Post by John Morris » August 28th, 2019, 8:18 pm

Dinesh Goyal wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 6:41 pm
All

Thank you for your inputs. This is what I was hoping for - get a few ideas on what to try.

Thing that stands out is that there are no clear favorites for the kind of style I like. But i do want to give the region a serious try before I give up.

From the feedback above, it feels like following producers will be a good place to start from:

Beaucastel
Vieux Donjon
Charvin
Vieux Telegraphe
In case you aren't aware, Beaucastel is really a very different beast because the blend typically includes 30% mourvedre and 10% syrah, and they use all 13 permitted grapes, including some white grapes. That's pretty much unique. It has a different texture and flavor profile than wines that are 80+% grenache.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#43 Post by John Morris » August 28th, 2019, 8:20 pm

Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 27th, 2019, 12:37 pm
I find Cayron too variable, though I was a fan in the 90s.
I had similar experiences in the 2000s, but the '16 is rocking -- dense but balanced, with great structure. It will need some time in the cellar.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#44 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 29th, 2019, 1:07 am

P.Sunesen wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 8:06 pm
Jonathan Loesberg wrote:
August 28th, 2019, 4:48 am
Oak mostly on the whites. But, like the Cambia wines they are, very ripe with tannins polished until they shine.


It's Cambie, and he's not connected to Clos du Caillou.
I apologize for the typo. According to both the Danish website and Cambie's own website, he does consult at Clos du Caillou.

http://www.chateauneuf.dk/en/cdpen115.htm

http://www.philippecambie.com/consultin ... f-du-pape/

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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#45 Post by Doug Schulman » August 29th, 2019, 9:11 am

Question for people suggesting Vieux Telegraphe: have you had recent vintages? The past several all have a strong liqueur note to me and are VERY ripe. I think it's far from the style that it used to be.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#46 Post by John S » August 29th, 2019, 11:07 am

For me no on VT. My serious CdP tasting info generally refers to vintages 2007 and before.
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Re: Châteauneuf-du-Pape producers

#47 Post by Jonathan Loesberg » August 29th, 2019, 11:14 am

There's been no change in ownership since the 80s and the cellar master has been around since the mid aughts. It is changes in one of these things (particularly a change in ownership, including a generational change) that usually leads to a change in style. That doesn't mean you are wrong, but it may be just what happened in a couple of vintages for your taste. If you feel the same about the next two, you should probably start to act accordingly.

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