TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

Tasting notes, varietals, grapes - anything related to wine
Message
Author
User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#1 Post by John Morris » June 21st, 2017, 8:49 pm

Served with herb-crusted roast chicken.

A bit of reduction on the nose that persisted, but not enough to be objectionable to any veteran Northern Rhone drinker. A bit tart when first decanted. With an hour or so and the meal, the wine fleshed out, however. Very nicely balanced at that point, a decent amount of plummy, maturing syrah fruit, but not a layered wine. Balanced, clean, but not very complex. 89-ish.

Writing this, I realize that the wine never demanded the attention of the ITB friend with whom I shared this. It was pleasant, but it never moved us to discuss it. I think that kind of sums up the wine.

At 16 years, I won't hold my other bottle. I don't think there's enough depth for this to improve with more time. Better to take advantage of the modest pleasure it provides now.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
jcoley3
Posts: 14997
Joined: January 31st, 2009, 3:31 pm
Location: Kansas City

TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#2 Post by jcoley3 » June 21st, 2017, 9:11 pm

I feel like this note belongs in the mature/lesser vintage vs. great youthful wine thread.
Jim Coley ITB

"So I say, like Ortega y Gasset, that when a lot of people agree on something, it's either a stupid idea or a beautiful woman." - Alvaro Mutis

"You could spend a lot more money, and not get a better Burgundy...” - Carlo Rossi

User avatar
Mark C Johnson
Posts: 1063
Joined: July 6th, 2009, 3:18 pm
Location: 808 State

TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#3 Post by Mark C Johnson » June 21st, 2017, 9:45 pm

jcoley3 wrote:I feel like this note belongs in the mature/lesser vintage vs. great youthful wine thread.
For me this note sums up the 2001 Jasmin also. A good wine but not "that great". On the other hand, a 2007 Les Elotins from Billon for Father's Day was delicious and discussion-able but not "great". [cheers.gif]
Memes & Tropes

User avatar
Carlos Delpin
Posts: 1842
Joined: June 13th, 2012, 3:22 am
Location: San Juan, Puerto Rico

TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#4 Post by Carlos Delpin » June 22nd, 2017, 3:48 am

I had the two wines referred to in this thread when they were young and my notes reflect that they were good, not great, when young either.

David Cooper
Posts: 1003
Joined: March 18th, 2015, 1:58 pm
Location: Vancouver BC

TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#5 Post by David Cooper » June 22nd, 2017, 8:15 am

In 2010 I had the 01 Rosataing Cote Blonde and my note described a big age worthy wine. Could this vineyard make that much of a difference.

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#6 Post by John Morris » June 22nd, 2017, 8:27 am

Probably. The "Cuvee Classique" was the base bottling, which has been labeled as "Ampodium" since the 2009 vintage. It is from 13 sites, but not from La Landonne or the sites used for the Cote Blonde, Rostaing's more prestigious bottlings, according to Jeff Leve's site. FYI, The Cote Blonde isn't a single vineyard; it's a blend from seven vineyards on the Cote Blonde slope.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

Gerhard P.
Posts: 4844
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#7 Post by Gerhard P. » June 22nd, 2017, 8:52 am

David Cooper wrote:In 2010 I had the 01 Rostaing Cote Blonde and my note described a big age worthy wine. Could this vineyard make that much of a difference.
1st: yes, the vineyards make a big difference, the "Blonde" is Renés best vineyard (at least until he resurrected the "Brune" (old vineyard of Albert Gentaz) in 2013 ... the "Classic" (later Ampodium) is the basic cuvee and can sometime be very fine (like in 1991 and 1999), but it combines better and less good sites .... and especially in 2001 also some not perfectly ripe grapes ...

2nd: 2001 was (IMHO) not a really fine vintage in Cote Rotie, many wines (Jamet, too) were on the wild (sauvage) side with a lot of structure and not really sweet tannins ... the best (ripes) wines like the "Blonde" will ultimately reach a certain balance, but many are close to maturity, but not really mellow or sweet ...
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#8 Post by John Morris » July 11th, 2019, 6:37 am

I opened by second and last bottle of this on Monday. This time I decanted it longer -- three hours or so ahead. I've felt that I didn't so some of my Northern Rhones justice, decanting them for two short a period.

It was pretty much the same story as the bottle I posted on above two years ago: balanced but not that much of interest on the nose. Nothing special. Like the other bottle, somehow this never moved my wine-loving friend or me to even remark on it.

I wish I'd been buying more and better CR in this era. Now I have to wait on my 2010 Levets.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Keith A k e r s
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3612
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 3:48 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#9 Post by Keith A k e r s » July 11th, 2019, 7:00 am

I guess my question is why does it have to move you and why would you expect it to move you? This was never a higher end wine and was never priced like that. Why not just enjoy it as a fully mature Cote-rotie and be quite happy with that?

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#10 Post by Jayson Cohen » July 11th, 2019, 7:12 am

Keith, it seems straightforward that John made a choice at some point to buy this over whatever else was available in the market at the time that would have been better, with the hope it would be great with age. Of course. We all do that. And we all have relative disappointments. Sounds like this was one of them.

Despite current trends, when the 2001s were released, I would say that Jamet, Allemand, and Verset by CW, among most other N Rhône wines, were not considered “higher end”. And were not getting high end prices. Well, you know how that has developed....

User avatar
Keith A k e r s
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3612
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 3:48 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#11 Post by Keith A k e r s » July 11th, 2019, 7:39 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 7:12 am
Keith, it seems straightforward that John made a choice at some point to buy this over whatever else was available in the market at the time that would have been better, with the hope it would be great with age. Of course. We all do that. And we all have relative disappointments. Sounds like this was one of them.

Despite current trends, when the 2001s were released, I would say that Jamet, Allemand, and Verset by CW, among most other N Rhône wines, were not considered “higher end”. And were not getting high end prices. Well, you know how that has developed....

Hi Jayson,

But this was never priced anywhere close to the wines you just mentioned. When I started working retail back in 07 (so there were 01 Northern Rhones on the shelves. I would know because that's where I got all of my 01 La Chapelle), yes Jamet was languishing on the shelves, but it was still a $75 wine at a major multi-store retailer that could afford to have the markup be lower than an independent store. Not cheap, but it was towards the higher end of Cote-Rotie that wasn't a Guigal LaLa. Whereas this wine was likely $35ish when John bought it (it was available for $55 on the shelf back in 09 for whatever was the current vintage at the time, maybe 05 iirc). Even citing Levet, that was super under the radar and when I discovered it in 2010, it was still priced higher than what the Classique was priced at then (a different story today for sure if you can find Levet at retail).

All I'm saying is that I would fully understand the criticism if he had bought the Rostaing Blonde or LaLandonne. But, the classique (now ampodium) was never intended to be anything but an "entry-level" cote-rotie from Rostaing and his note reads exactly like that. To go to a different region, I wouldn't expect a Brezza Barolo to be anything other than an a mature example down the road and then be disappointed when it's just that and compare it to something like, say, Brovia Garblet Sue.

User avatar
John S
Posts: 750
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 11:45 am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#12 Post by John S » July 11th, 2019, 8:04 am

I agree the '01s from CR are good to very good but it is not a great overall vintage like 1999. Better than 2000 and 2004. Never been much of a fan of the Rostaing style and have tried so many it is clear they just do not do it for me. Not unlike Chapoutier. Not that I dislike either producer, just that they don't wow or speak to me at all.

FWIW, I've had excellent luck with the 2001 Ogier CR. The regular bottling really did well that year.
John Sprow

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#13 Post by Jayson Cohen » July 11th, 2019, 8:19 am

Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 7:39 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 7:12 am
Keith, it seems straightforward that John made a choice at some point to buy this over whatever else was available in the market at the time that would have been better, with the hope it would be great with age. Of course. We all do that. And we all have relative disappointments. Sounds like this was one of them.

Despite current trends, when the 2001s were released, I would say that Jamet, Allemand, and Verset by CW, among most other N Rhône wines, were not considered “higher end”. And were not getting high end prices. Well, you know how that has developed....

Hi Jayson,

But this was never priced anywhere close to the wines you just mentioned. When I started working retail back in 07 (so there were 01 Northern Rhones on the shelves. I would know because that's where I got all of my 01 La Chapelle), yes Jamet was languishing on the shelves, but it was still a $75 wine at a major multi-store retailer that could afford to have the markup be lower than an independent store. Not cheap, but it was towards the higher end of Cote-Rotie that wasn't a Guigal LaLa. Whereas this wine was likely $35ish when John bought it (it was available for $55 on the shelf back in 09 for whatever was the current vintage at the time, maybe 05 iirc). Even citing Levet, that was super under the radar and when I discovered it in 2010, it was still priced higher than what the Classique was priced at then (a different story today for sure if you can find Levet at retail).

All I'm saying is that I would fully understand the criticism if he had bought the Rostaing Blonde or LaLandonne. But, the classique (now ampodium) was never intended to be anything but an "entry-level" cote-rotie from Rostaing and his note reads exactly like that. To go to a different region, I wouldn't expect a Brezza Barolo to be anything other than an a mature example down the road and then be disappointed when it's just that and compare it to something like, say, Brovia Garblet Sue.
Maybe I’m misremembering but Verset in 2004 was still $30-35, Allemand $35-45, and Jamet around $45-55 but one could find it lower. Any case, my metapoint is there is no question in my mind there was better wine in CR and Cornas in the Rostaing price range.

And the nascent AFWE knew this wine sucked.

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18884
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#14 Post by Alan Rath » July 11th, 2019, 8:21 am

Maybe not a surprise? Lesser wine from unremarkable producer. As for vintage, I'd take 01 over 99 for most producers. 99 is the warmer, overrated vintage.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Keith A k e r s
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3612
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 3:48 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#15 Post by Keith A k e r s » July 11th, 2019, 8:36 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 8:19 am


Maybe I’m misremembering but Verset in 2004 was still $30-35, Allemand $35-45, and Jamet around $45-55 but one could find it lower. Any case, my metapoint is there is no question in my mind there was better wine in CR and Cornas in the Rostaing price range.

And the nascent AFWE knew this wine sucked.

I can't speak for the prices where you were, but I strongly doubt those were the prices and then saw the jump to what I saw when I was on the floor in 07. Verset has only very recently been a hot property and I remember being offered the 05 and 06 for around $75-80 just a few years after 2004. Granted, Verset may have been at the prices you are mentioning because it was pretty underground for a good while (but, then why is someone kicking themselves for not knowing about it in 04?), but I was paying over $100 for Allemand just a few years after 2004. While it could be that it saw a big price jump between 04-07/08, I kinda doubt it as I've always seen it priced on the elite end of Northern Rhone and it has now fully taken off in the past 5 years. I was relatively able to get back vintage Allemand up until around 2012-2014 and I was easily able to find Allemand in 08 by looking in the right places.

User avatar
David_K
Posts: 775
Joined: July 17th, 2014, 7:01 pm
Location: Boston, MA

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#16 Post by David_K » July 11th, 2019, 8:40 am

Just to chime in here, I get what people are saying but Cote-Rotie is by definition a high-end wine and it's not unreasonable to hope for a great showing, even from an "entry-level" cuvee. I don't get the sense he was expecting a religious experience.
K@ntrОwi╦z

User avatar
Alan Rath
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 18884
Joined: April 24th, 2009, 12:45 am
Location: Bay Area, CA. Sometimes out to lunch.

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#17 Post by Alan Rath » July 11th, 2019, 8:52 am

Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 8:36 am
I can't speak for the prices where you were, but I strongly doubt those were the prices and then saw the jump to what I saw when I was on the floor in 07. Verset has only very recently been a hot property and I remember being offered the 05 and 06 for around $75-80 just a few years after 2004. Granted, Verset may have been at the prices you are mentioning because it was pretty underground for a good while (but, then why is someone kicking themselves for not knowing about it in 04?), but I was paying over $100 for Allemand just a few years after 2004. While it could be that it saw a big price jump between 04-07/08, I kinda doubt it as I've always seen it priced on the elite end of Northern Rhone and it has now fully taken off in the past 5 years. I was relatively able to get back vintage Allemand up until around 2012-2014 and I was easily able to find Allemand in 08 by looking in the right places.
I thought Verset's last vintage was 05. At any rate, long before then the wine was not up to the standards of what it had been in previous decades, since Verset had sold off most of his holdings. It's true you could find Allemand pretty easily until just a few years ago. 2010 Allemand was the first time it crossed the $100 barrier here in the US.
I'm just one lost soul, swimming in a fish bowl, year after year

User avatar
Keith A k e r s
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3612
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 3:48 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#18 Post by Keith A k e r s » July 11th, 2019, 9:25 am

Alan Rath wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 8:52 am
Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 8:36 am
I can't speak for the prices where you were, but I strongly doubt those were the prices and then saw the jump to what I saw when I was on the floor in 07. Verset has only very recently been a hot property and I remember being offered the 05 and 06 for around $75-80 just a few years after 2004. Granted, Verset may have been at the prices you are mentioning because it was pretty underground for a good while (but, then why is someone kicking themselves for not knowing about it in 04?), but I was paying over $100 for Allemand just a few years after 2004. While it could be that it saw a big price jump between 04-07/08, I kinda doubt it as I've always seen it priced on the elite end of Northern Rhone and it has now fully taken off in the past 5 years. I was relatively able to get back vintage Allemand up until around 2012-2014 and I was easily able to find Allemand in 08 by looking in the right places.
I thought Verset's last vintage was 05. At any rate, long before then the wine was not up to the standards of what it had been in previous decades, since Verset had sold off most of his holdings. It's true you could find Allemand pretty easily until just a few years ago. 2010 Allemand was the first time it crossed the $100 barrier here in the US.

um, I live in Chicago




David,


And Barolo by all definitions is high-end, but that doesn't change the point I made in comparing a Brezza Barolo to Brovia Garblet Sue.

Jayson Cohen
Posts: 1918
Joined: July 9th, 2016, 4:29 pm
Location: New York, NY

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#19 Post by Jayson Cohen » July 11th, 2019, 10:02 am

Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 8:36 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 8:19 am


Maybe I’m misremembering but Verset in 2004 was still $30-35, Allemand $35-45, and Jamet around $45-55 but one could find it lower. Any case, my metapoint is there is no question in my mind there was better wine in CR and Cornas in the Rostaing price range.

And the nascent AFWE knew this wine sucked.

I can't speak for the prices where you were, but I strongly doubt those were the prices and then saw the jump to what I saw when I was on the floor in 07. Verset has only very recently been a hot property and I remember being offered the 05 and 06 for around $75-80 just a few years after 2004. Granted, Verset may have been at the prices you are mentioning because it was pretty underground for a good while (but, then why is someone kicking themselves for not knowing about it in 04?), but I was paying over $100 for Allemand just a few years after 2004. While it could be that it saw a big price jump between 04-07/08, I kinda doubt it as I've always seen it priced on the elite end of Northern Rhone and it has now fully taken off in the past 5 years. I was relatively able to get back vintage Allemand up until around 2012-2014 and I was easily able to find Allemand in 08 by looking in the right places.
Allemand was $25-30 in Paris in Feb. 2004 when I was there and price had only recently started to move in US. Not even close to $100 in US. The jump did occur in the period you stated or after. I bought 2004 Chaillot for $55 per for a half case in 2007 from Flickinger.

I bought 1999 Verset for $27.99 and believe 2001 was only marginally higher on release. I was offered 2004 in 2010 for $30 from Flickinger. Now kicking myself for not pouncing.

Jamet, my memory is less clear on but we used to get good pricing in NYC and I bought some in Europe in the relevant period for ~$30-35 so doesn’t count re: US pricing.

In any case IMO Rostaing seriously underperformed its potential in that period.

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#20 Post by John Morris » July 11th, 2019, 10:15 am

Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 7:00 am
I guess my question is why does it have to move you and why would you expect it to move you? This was never a higher end wine and was never priced like that. Why not just enjoy it as a fully mature Cote-rotie and be quite happy with that?
I didn't expect it to be profound, but it was just boring, without much of any CR character, so I think I'm entitled to be unhappy about that. Particularly at $49 in 2007 (at Astor).

I've never had a Rostaing wine that sent me and have been a bit puzzled why his reputation was as strong as it was and why his prices have remained high. (I've never seen any fans here, obviously.) Every so often I bought a couple of bottles to see if I've been missing something. By 01 he had cut way back on his use of new oak, so I gave it a whirl.

I'm now down to two bottles of '11 Ampodium. I won't hold out high hopes for those.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Keith A k e r s
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3612
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 3:48 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#21 Post by Keith A k e r s » July 11th, 2019, 10:16 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:02 am


In any case IMO Rostaing seriously underperformed its potential in that period.


Yea, that hasn’t been my argument here. My argument has been that the expectation that John had for the wine was greater than what the wine could conceivably give. His notes sound exactly what the wine was.


As far as the 2010 prices for Verset from Flick, that must’ve been a close out from Fine Vines (the local distributor for Verset) that they got their hands on. Fine Vines wasn’t front lining at a price that would lead to that cheap of a price. I remember it well as they would have bottles of Verset and Jamet open at portfolio tastings and I’d be sitting there going back for pours as barely anybody would be touching them. These tastings were at the old OneSixtyBlue restaurant in the West Loop that is now an Urban Belly (and went through several other restaurants in between)

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#22 Post by John Morris » July 11th, 2019, 10:22 am

Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:02 am
Allemand was $25-30 in Paris in Feb. 2004 when I was there and price had only recently started to move in US. Not even close to $100 in US. The jump did occur in the period you stated or after. I bought 2004 Chaillot for $55 per for a half case in 2007 from Flickinger.

I bought 1999 Verset for $27.99 and believe 2001 was only marginally higher on release. I was offered 2004 in 2010 for $30 from Flickinger. Now kicking myself for not pouncing.

Jamet, my memory is less clear on but we used to get good pricing in NYC and I bought some in Europe in the relevant period for ~$30-35 so doesn’t count re: US pricing.

In any case IMO Rostaing seriously underperformed its potential in that period.
Some historical prices from my inventory records:

98 Clape Cornas - $38 (NY 2003)
99 Allemand - Chaillot - $32 (NY 2003)
99 Allemand - Reynard - $38 (London 2002)
99 Verset Cornas - $40 (NY 2004)
00 Verset Cornas - $42 (NY 2003)
01 Jasmin Cote Rotie - $45 (NY 2010)
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Keith A k e r s
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3612
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 3:48 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#23 Post by Keith A k e r s » July 11th, 2019, 10:23 am

John Morris wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:15 am

I didn't expect it to be profound, but it was just boring, without much of any CR character, so I think I'm entitled to be unhappy about that. Particularly at $49 in 2007 (at Astor).

I've never had a Rostaing wine that sent me and have been a bit puzzled why his reputation was as strong as it was and why his prices have remained high. (I've never seen any fans here, obviously.) Every so often I bought a couple of bottles to see if I've been missing something. By 01 he had cut way back on his use of new oak, so I gave it a whirl.


Gotcha. This makes more sense to me and thanks for the clarification.


I think the reputation is almost solely down to who his uncle was. Obv Rostaing wasn’t his uncle, but a hell of a lot of money has clearly gone into the making of the wines and he has a strong lineage, so that likely answers for the price.

User avatar
Keith A k e r s
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3612
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 3:48 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#24 Post by Keith A k e r s » July 11th, 2019, 10:25 am

John Morris wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:22 am

Some historical prices from my inventory records:

98 Clape Cornas - $38 (NY 2003)
99 Allemand - Chaillot - $32 (NY 2003)
99 Allemand - Reynard - $38 (London 2002)
99 Verset Cornas - $40 (NY 2004)
00 Verset Cornas - $42 (NY 2003)
01 Jasmin Cote Rotie - $45 (NY 2010)

^and these prices are much more in line with my memory of trying them in and around NYC around the same time. Obviously people would get deals on them later on, but that’s also because these wines were almost unsellabe to almost all but a few consumers

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#25 Post by John Morris » July 11th, 2019, 10:29 am

Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:23 am
I think the reputation is almost solely down to who his uncle was. Obv Rostaing wasn’t his uncle, but a hell of a lot of money has clearly gone into the making of the wines and he has a strong lineage, so that likely answers for the price.
Also, he was imported by Kermit Lynch originally, as I recall. He was well-established before Gentaz retired and Rostaing got his vineyards.

Was Gentaz his uncle or his father-in-law? I can't remember. He also inherited some good Dervieux-Thaize vineyards.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Keith A k e r s
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 3612
Joined: June 2nd, 2009, 3:48 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#26 Post by Keith A k e r s » July 11th, 2019, 10:31 am

I think it was his uncle, so I’ve just gone with that over the years. Rostaing being the SIL makes just as much sense too

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#27 Post by John Morris » July 11th, 2019, 10:31 am

Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:25 am
^and these prices are much more in line with my memory of trying them in and around NYC around the same time. Obviously people would get deals on them later on, but that’s also because these wines were almost unsellabe to almost all but a few consumers
Certainly in the 1990s, when I moved to NY, Northern Rhones were barely stocked here. Burgundy Wine Co. and Crossroads were the only sources for smaller producers. Otherwise it was Jaboulet and Guigal and other negotiants.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Marcus Dean
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1172
Joined: May 31st, 2017, 4:45 pm
Location: Auckland Noo ZEEEEland

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#28 Post by Marcus Dean » July 11th, 2019, 8:48 pm

John Morris wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:15 am
Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 7:00 am
I guess my question is why does it have to move you and why would you expect it to move you? This was never a higher end wine and was never priced like that. Why not just enjoy it as a fully mature Cote-rotie and be quite happy with that?
I didn't expect it to be profound, but it was just boring, without much of any CR character, so I think I'm entitled to be unhappy about that. Particularly at $49 in 2007 (at Astor).

I've never had a Rostaing wine that sent me and have been a bit puzzled why his reputation was as strong as it was and why his prices have remained high. (I've never seen any fans here, obviously.) Every so often I bought a couple of bottles to see if I've been missing something. By 01 he had cut way back on his use of new oak, so I gave it a whirl.

I'm now down to two bottles of '11 Ampodium. I won't hold out high hopes for those.
I have never drunk a Rostaing that moved me, but I did pick up a couple of cases a few years ago for $50 NZD a bottle (2005 and 2006 vintages), and to be honest at that price I am pretty happy with them as drinkers. But I 100% understand your frustration if $49 USD would have purchased better CR 12 years ago
Last edited by Marcus Dean on July 11th, 2019, 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#29 Post by John Morris » July 11th, 2019, 8:49 pm

Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:31 am
I think it was his uncle, so I’ve just gone with that over the years. Rostaing being the SIL makes just as much sense too
You're right. Gentaz was his uncle. It was Dervieux-Thaize that was his father in law.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

User avatar
Arv R
Posts: 3665
Joined: January 11th, 2015, 3:53 pm

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#30 Post by Arv R » July 11th, 2019, 9:17 pm

John Morris wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:15 am
Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 7:00 am
I guess my question is why does it have to move you and why would you expect it to move you? This was never a higher end wine and was never priced like that. Why not just enjoy it as a fully mature Cote-rotie and be quite happy with that?
I didn't expect it to be profound, but it was just boring, without much of any CR character, so I think I'm entitled to be unhappy about that. Particularly at $49 in 2007 (at Astor).

I've never had a Rostaing wine that sent me and have been a bit puzzled why his reputation was as strong as it was and why his prices have remained high. (I've never seen any fans here, obviously.) Every so often I bought a couple of bottles to see if I've been missing something. By 01 he had cut way back on his use of new oak, so I gave it a whirl.

I'm now down to two bottles of '11 Ampodium. I won't hold out high hopes for those.
I can't remember exactly what Rostaing's estate is in the Languedoc is....but the Puech one he is involved with made a very good syrah in 2001. I had it at about age 10 or 15 and it was very fine.

Maybe I just like the Rostaing style more.

It sounds like I should consume my only 01 C-R left, a St Cosme of some kind I think.
R_@_0

User avatar
David Lewin
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 327
Joined: February 28th, 2009, 2:01 pm

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#31 Post by David Lewin » July 11th, 2019, 9:40 pm

John Morris wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:22 am
Jayson Cohen wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:02 am
Allemand was $25-30 in Paris in Feb. 2004 when I was there and price had only recently started to move in US. Not even close to $100 in US. The jump did occur in the period you stated or after. I bought 2004 Chaillot for $55 per for a half case in 2007 from Flickinger.

I bought 1999 Verset for $27.99 and believe 2001 was only marginally higher on release. I was offered 2004 in 2010 for $30 from Flickinger. Now kicking myself for not pouncing.

Jamet, my memory is less clear on but we used to get good pricing in NYC and I bought some in Europe in the relevant period for ~$30-35 so doesn’t count re: US pricing.

In any case IMO Rostaing seriously underperformed its potential in that period.
Some historical prices from my inventory records:

98 Clape Cornas - $38 (NY 2003)
99 Allemand - Chaillot - $32 (NY 2003)
99 Allemand - Reynard - $38 (London 2002)
99 Verset Cornas - $40 (NY 2004)
00 Verset Cornas - $42 (NY 2003)
01 Jasmin Cote Rotie - $45 (NY 2010)
For another data point, I bought a couple of bottles of the 2001 Jamet from Vins Rare for $55 in 2006.

User avatar
Arv R
Posts: 3665
Joined: January 11th, 2015, 3:53 pm

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#32 Post by Arv R » July 11th, 2019, 9:44 pm

John Morris wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 8:49 pm
Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:31 am
I think it was his uncle, so I’ve just gone with that over the years. Rostaing being the SIL makes just as much sense too
You're right. Gentaz was his uncle. It was Dervieux-Thaize that was his father in law.
My people always say 'choose your parents carefully'

Rostaing seems to have taken that advice to heart
R_@_0

Gerhard P.
Posts: 4844
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#33 Post by Gerhard P. » July 12th, 2019, 5:35 am

2001 is not my fav. vintage in Cote-Rotie ... quite rustic from the start, even sauvage ... most are now milder but lacking sweetness ... even Jamet is a bit mean ...
Rostaing's Cote blonde and La Landonne are clearly a step or two above the regular CR (now Ampodium), much more intense and interesting, but the latter is a good typical CR which can be outstanding in fine years like 2009, 2016 or 1999 ...
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

Gerhard P.
Posts: 4844
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#34 Post by Gerhard P. » July 12th, 2019, 5:39 am

>> I can't remember exactly what Rostaing's estate is in the Languedoc is....but the Puech one he is involved with made a very good syrah in 2001. I had it at about age 10 or 15 and it was very fine.

Maybe I just like the Rostaing style more.

It sounds like I should consume my only 01 C-R left, a St Cosme of some kind I think.<<
It was Puech Chaud ... but he had to change it to Puech Noble ...
Last edited by Gerhard P. on July 12th, 2019, 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
Ramon C
Posts: 3608
Joined: October 23rd, 2010, 6:34 am

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#35 Post by Ramon C » July 12th, 2019, 6:01 am

Arv R wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 9:44 pm
John Morris wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 8:49 pm
Keith A k e r s wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 10:31 am
I think it was his uncle, so I’ve just gone with that over the years. Rostaing being the SIL makes just as much sense too
You're right. Gentaz was his uncle. It was Dervieux-Thaize that was his father in law.
My people always say 'choose your parents carefully'

Rostaing seems to have taken that advice to heart
Too bad, he didn’t follow what they preached.
@brera

Gerhard P.
Posts: 4844
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#36 Post by Gerhard P. » July 12th, 2019, 11:11 am

Ramon C wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 6:01 am

Too bad, he didn’t follow what they preached.
... and WHAT did they preach?
How many wines and vintages have you tasted by Albert Dervieux-Thaize and Marius Gentaz-Dervieux?

Were they all fantastic?
(imho not ...)
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
Ramon C
Posts: 3608
Joined: October 23rd, 2010, 6:34 am

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#37 Post by Ramon C » July 12th, 2019, 2:53 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 11:11 am
Ramon C wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 6:01 am

Too bad, he didn’t follow what they preached.
... and WHAT did they preach?
How many wines and vintages have you tasted by Albert Dervieux-Thaize and Marius Gentaz-Dervieux?

Were they all fantastic?
(imho not ...)
Not many. Not going to provide the count just for your sake. Not all fantastic.
@brera

User avatar
Marcus Dean
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1172
Joined: May 31st, 2017, 4:45 pm
Location: Auckland Noo ZEEEEland

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#38 Post by Marcus Dean » July 12th, 2019, 3:07 pm

I had to dig out some wines for a dinner party so i grabbed a 2006 Cuvee Classique to check on its evolution,
Lovely balance with restrained smokey fruit showing a hint of secondary development, fine grained tannins with a lovely trailing acidity and a finish that hummed along on my palate for 45 seconds.
I am really pleased with the wine overall

Gerhard P.
Posts: 4844
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#39 Post by Gerhard P. » July 13th, 2019, 10:56 am

Ramon C wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 2:53 pm
Gerhard P. wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 11:11 am
Ramon C wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 6:01 am

Too bad, he didn’t follow what they preached.
... and WHAT did they preach?
How many wines and vintages have you tasted by Albert Dervieux-Thaize and Marius Gentaz-Dervieux?

Were they all fantastic?
(imho not ...)
Not many. Not going to provide the count just for your sake. Not all fantastic.
It sounds to me that you think René Rostaing should have made a lot better than he did in your opinion.
I wonder how many producers you can name that you think were better than Rostaing over the last 40 years ... and were still working after 2000 ...
? [scratch.gif]

JFWIW:
René Rostaing was one of the best 4 or 5 producers in Cote-Rotie imho (I said "was" because he retired with vintage 2014 - and his son Pierre took over in 2015, although he worked with René the years before). His 1st vintage was 1971.

René once told me that his uncle Marcel G-D was a fantastic wine-grower (a genius in the vineyards), but only a mean wine-maker (in the cellar) ... he more or less let everything go ... which sometimes turned out fine, and sometimes ... well, less good ...
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#40 Post by John Morris » July 13th, 2019, 11:31 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 10:56 am
René once told me that his uncle Marcel G-D was a fantastic wine-grower (a genius in the vineyards), but only a mean wine-maker (in the cellar) ... he more or less let everything go ... which sometimes turned out fine, and sometimes ... well, less good ...
Sounds like the disparaging remarks of the younger generation in the Langhe in the 80s and 90s about their fathers, as they started to use new barriques -- as Rostaing did in the same period.

I think Rostaing may in the minority in his view of Gentaz.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

Gerhard P.
Posts: 4844
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#41 Post by Gerhard P. » July 13th, 2019, 2:11 pm

John Morris wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 11:31 am
Gerhard P. wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 10:56 am
René once told me that his uncle Marcel G-D was a fantastic wine-grower (a genius in the vineyards), but only a mean wine-maker (in the cellar) ... he more or less let everything go ... which sometimes turned out fine, and sometimes ... well, less good ...
Sounds like the disparaging remarks of the younger generation in the Langhe in the 80s and 90s about their fathers, as they started to use new barriques -- as Rostaing did in the same period.

I think Rostaing may in the minority in his view of Gentaz.
Quite a wrong comparison. René rarely used more than 30% new oak, and usually mostly 450 l foudres, and has cut back since to 10-15% ... if at all ...
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
Ramon C
Posts: 3608
Joined: October 23rd, 2010, 6:34 am

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#42 Post by Ramon C » July 13th, 2019, 4:39 pm

Gerhard P. wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 10:56 am
Ramon C wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 2:53 pm
Gerhard P. wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 11:11 am


... and WHAT did they preach?
How many wines and vintages have you tasted by Albert Dervieux-Thaize and Marius Gentaz-Dervieux?

Were they all fantastic?
(imho not ...)
Not many. Not going to provide the count just for your sake. Not all fantastic.
It sounds to me that you think René Rostaing should have made a lot better than he did in your opinion.
I wonder how many producers you can name that you think were better than Rostaing over the last 40 years ... and were still working after 2000 ...
? [scratch.gif]
I can name a few, but not as much as the unlimited supply of soapboxes that you obviously hoard so that you can stand on one with every thread you participate in.

[soap.gif]
@brera

User avatar
Ramon C
Posts: 3608
Joined: October 23rd, 2010, 6:34 am

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#43 Post by Ramon C » July 13th, 2019, 4:41 pm

John Morris wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 11:31 am
Gerhard P. wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 10:56 am
René once told me that his uncle Marcel G-D was a fantastic wine-grower (a genius in the vineyards), but only a mean wine-maker (in the cellar) ... he more or less let everything go ... which sometimes turned out fine, and sometimes ... well, less good ...
Sounds like the disparaging remarks of the younger generation in the Langhe in the 80s and 90s about their fathers, as they started to use new barriques -- as Rostaing did in the same period.

I think Rostaing may in the minority in his view of Gentaz.
+ Rostaing is truly unique in ways beyond Gentaz can only hope for, in particular his ingenious use of osterizers during fermentation.
@brera

User avatar
Jeremy Holmes
Posts: 6649
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 3:50 pm

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#44 Post by Jeremy Holmes » July 13th, 2019, 5:34 pm

Had a bottle of '11 Ampodium during the week. Thought it was a delicious, mid-weight CR with plenty of spice and lovely balance.
ITB

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#45 Post by John Morris » July 13th, 2019, 7:15 pm

That's good to here! Thanks, Jeremy.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

Gerhard P.
Posts: 4844
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#46 Post by Gerhard P. » July 14th, 2019, 1:10 am

Ramon C wrote:
July 13th, 2019, 4:41 pm

+ Rostaing is truly unique in ways beyond Gentaz can only hope for, in particular his ingenious use of osterizers during fermentation.
Image

[scratch.gif]

Biases seem to prohibit a serious discussion more and more ...
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
Arv R
Posts: 3665
Joined: January 11th, 2015, 3:53 pm

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#47 Post by Arv R » July 14th, 2019, 4:55 pm

I seem to remember reading in JLL's various books on the Rhone, that Rostaing is controversial and provokes arguments even there too.

In Japan, they might say he disturbs the wa
R_@_0

Gerhard P.
Posts: 4844
Joined: April 28th, 2010, 11:06 pm
Location: Graz/Austria

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#48 Post by Gerhard P. » July 15th, 2019, 1:56 am

Arv R wrote:
July 14th, 2019, 4:55 pm
I seem to remember reading in JLL's various books on the Rhone, that Rostaing is controversial and provokes arguments even there too.

In Japan, they might say he disturbs the wa
Nothing wrong with being controversial - that´s the sign of a strong character ... but one should stay objective and not agressive and offensive from behind ... (nothing against you, Arv R).
Obviously some guys cannot accept different opinions ... or deeper experience on a certain matter ...
I´ve tasted close to 35 vintages of Rostaing - and mostly all 3-4 cuvées, having most still in my cellar ... so I know what I´m talking about.

Not all vintages and wines by Rostaing are great, but that´s also true for almost all other producers ...
I´m still curious which Cote Rotie producers are better than Rostaing ... constantly over the last 40 years ...
Gerhard Pr@esent
composer / AT

User avatar
John S
Posts: 750
Joined: May 29th, 2009, 11:45 am
Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#49 Post by John S » July 15th, 2019, 4:47 am

I am not looking to join a fight. But asking for other producers who have been making CR for 40 years in kindof silly. Many small independent producers that we know today made no or very little own branded CR prior to the 80s or 90s. Guigal used to buy up most of that fruit to go into his more generic CR bottlings. With that said, yes I much prefer the La Las to Rostaing. Yes they are more expensive. I get the Gerhard really likes Rostaing and others don't nearly as much. I am in that camp. In fact I prefer Ogier to Rostaing but certainly that is not a popular view either as Ogier is on the more modern side. I find Jamet generally better than either of those for my palate. There simply are not a huge swath of older CR producers out there to compare.

I have never found the Rostaing wines flawed in any way which is objective. Subjectively they are simply wines I don't buy as I prefer other producers. But I try them when offered and they are good wines just not my preferred style or expression of CR. And yeah not all Gentaz wines were great. Those have become mythic, I have none left, but loved the 1988 and seem to recall the 85 was quite fine as well. Never really had a great bottle of the 1991 which was always surprising given the vintage.
John Sprow

User avatar
John Morris
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 16764
Joined: June 21st, 2009, 2:09 pm
Location: Gotham

Re: TN: Dom. Rostaing - 2001 Cote Rotie - Cuvee Classique

#50 Post by John Morris » July 15th, 2019, 7:52 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
July 15th, 2019, 1:56 am
Obviously some guys cannot accept different opinions ... or deeper experience on a certain matter ...
He said modestly.
Gerhard P. wrote:
July 15th, 2019, 1:56 am
I´m still curious which Cote Rotie producers are better than Rostaing ... constantly over the last 40 years ...
As you know, and as the other John said, this is a silly and tendentious question since so many smaller producers have retired over that period. I will say that I've had many Guigal B&Bs over that span that were far more interesting to me than Rostaing's basic bottling.
"I pencilled in half an hour to suffer fools tomorrow, but now I’m thinking I might bump it out until Monday." -- @duchessgoldblat

“Only he who has walked through the deepest valley knows how other valleys of lesser depth are relatively more walk-throughable, valley-wise.” – @TheTweetOfGod

Post Reply

Return to “Wine Talk”