TN: J. J. Prüm, Truchot, Egon Müller

[D@vid Bu3ker]

1997 Joh. Jos. Prüm Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Spätlese - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (7/5/2019)
Elegant, pure, drinkable, refreshing, and more, the ‘97 Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr Spatlese was at a perfect maturity point. Still showing fresh fruit, but also aged elements both aromatically and texturally, it had shed baby fat, and revealed its stone cut body, only accented by sweetness, making it a perfect dinner wine.

1998 Joh. Jos. Prüm Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Auslese - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (7/5/2019)
Predictably richer, sweeter and deeper than the ‘97 Sonnenuhr Spatlese that preceded it, this was also at a fine maturity point, with surprisingly more slate expression, despite the additional richness. Gliding through the aging process, some botrytis expression added spice to the classic lemon cream of Sonnenuhr. Twenty plus years of age, and neither wine seemed anything beyond well developed. Fantastic showing.

2003 Joh. Jos. Prüm Bernkasteler Badstube Riesling Auslese - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (7/5/2019)
Following the spectacular showing of the ‘97 Sonnenuhr Spatlese and ‘98 Sonnenuhr Auslese, this was still a bit of a grump teenager. Still it had lovely apple and cherry fruit, and a distinct note of vanilla creme brulee. Moderately sweet, and starting to reveal some backbone, this needs another four of five years in the cellar to evolve and open up.

2005 Domaine Truchot-Martin Morey St. Denis 1er Cru Clos Sorbes Vieilles Vignes - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Morey St. Denis 1er Cru (7/5/2019)
Of course this was too soon, but allowing the wine an hour of air worked wonders, as it opened up to an elegant red fruit and herb with robust, almost meaty undertones. The palate was a study in grace, the tannic structure only surfacing near the finish, but always holding things in place. Medium weight and long in the finish, the last glasses were of course the best, as the aromatics became more pronounced and delineated. We all had a few ounces sitting in our glasses for another hour or more, returning for another sniff, and very small sips, as we extended what was a lovely experience.

Our wine earlier in the afternoon was...
2007 Egon Müller Scharzhofberger Riesling Kabinett - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (7/5/2019)
Currently in a somewhat closed phase, as many 2007s are to my palate. Air helped, and the crystalline elegance of Muller was fully apparent. Crunchy fruit, and a deep mineral base promise even more several years down the road. The depth is there, it just needs to unfurl.

Posted from CellarTracker

[Mattstolz]

Our wine earlier in the afternoon was...
2007 Egon Müller Scharzhofberger Riesling Kabinett - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (7/5/2019)
Currently in a somewhat closed phase, as many 2007s are to my palate. Air helped, and the crystalline elegance of Muller was fully apparent. Crunchy fruit, and a deep mineral base promise even more several years down the road. The depth is there, it just needs to unfurl.

Posted from CellarTracker

what sweetness level are the Kabinetts of this wine typically? does it vary drastically or are they consistently in a similar category?

[D@vid Bu3ker]

I am no expert, as I rarely put out the required coin, but I have never had an Egon Muller Kabinett that I thought of as a “sweet” wine.

[A.Gillette]

There are others on this board with far more experience than I, but I’ve often felt that Egon’s kabinett and spatlese served as home to the botrytis grapes that didn’t make it into the big money wines. And some of the dry wines from the late 80s were downright awful. But I’ve thought the recent vintage kabinett have been proper kabinett and delicious. The alte reben kabinett is really good. It will be interesting to see how they respond when Keller breaks their kabinett price record at the auction this year.
A

[D@vid Bu3ker]

It will be interesting to see how they respond when Keller breaks their kabinett price record at the auction this year.

Quite probably the least interesting aspect of wine, any wine, to me.

[A.Gillette]

It will be interesting to see how they respond when Keller breaks their kabinett price record at the auction this year.

Quite probably the least interesting aspect of wine, any wine, to me.

What aspect is that?

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Anything to do with auction prices.

[A.Gillette]

Anything to do with auction prices.

Awesome for you if you don’t have to pay attention to price. But I have limited resources so I have to be interested in the price at which wines are sold and I have to make relative value decisions. For something like this, the auction price is the lowest price at which it will ever be sold (by definition, unless a buyer at auction is willing to sell at a loss), but no hard feelings to those who don’t have to worry about price.
A

[Tom G l a s g o w]

Anything to do with auction prices.

Awesome for you if you don’t have to pay attention to price. But I have limited resources so I have to be interested in the price at which wines are sold and I have to make relative value decisions. For something like this, the auction price is the lowest price at which it will ever be sold (by definition, unless a buyer at auction is willing to sell at a loss), but no hard feelings to those who don’t have to worry about price.
A

Your misunderstanding of David’s point is of epic proportions. Kindly consult post #3 for proof.

[A.Gillette]

Anything to do with auction prices.

Awesome for you if you don’t have to pay attention to price. But I have limited resources so I have to be interested in the price at which wines are sold and I have to make relative value decisions. For something like this, the auction price is the lowest price at which it will ever be sold (by definition, unless a buyer at auction is willing to sell at a loss), but no hard feelings to those who don’t have to worry about price.
A

Your misunderstanding of David’s point is of epic proportions. Kindly consult post #3 for proof.

What was David’s point Tom? Post 3 appears to be about whether Egon is reliably within Pradikat. Enlighten me.
A

[A.Gillette]

Anything to do with auction prices.

Awesome for you if you don’t have to pay attention to price. But I have limited resources so I have to be interested in the price at which wines are sold and I have to make relative value decisions. For something like this, the auction price is the lowest price at which it will ever be sold (by definition, unless a buyer at auction is willing to sell at a loss), but no hard feelings to those who don’t have to worry about price.
A

Your misunderstanding of David’s point is of epic proportions. Kindly consult post #3 for proof.

Here is post 3, so you can clear up the EPIC misunderstanding:

I am no expert, as I rarely put out the required coin, but I have never had an Egon Muller Kabinett that I thought of as a “sweet” wine.

[DanielP]

Awesome for you if you don’t have to pay attention to price. But I have limited resources so I have to be interested in the price at which wines are sold and I have to make relative value decisions. For something like this, the auction price is the lowest price at which it will ever be sold (by definition, unless a buyer at auction is willing to sell at a loss), but no hard feelings to those who don’t have to worry about price.
A

Your misunderstanding of David’s point is of epic proportions. Kindly consult post #3 for proof.

Here is post 3, so you can clear up the EPIC misunderstanding:

I am no expert, as I rarely put out the required coin, but I have never had an Egon Muller Kabinett that I thought of as a “sweet” wine.

David rarely pays the high prices required to buy Egon's wines.
You suggest that he doesn't have to worry about price simply because he doesn't care about the German auction prices.

What's the confusion

[Mattstolz]

Your misunderstanding of David’s point is of epic proportions. Kindly consult post #3 for proof.

What was David’s point Tom? Post 3 appears to be about whether Egon is reliably within Pradikat. Enlighten me.
A

I got the impression he just meant that he'd rather pay attention to enjoying the contents of the bottle than an auction record.

[A.Gillette]

Your misunderstanding of David’s point is of epic proportions. Kindly consult post #3 for proof.

Here is post 3, so you can clear up the EPIC misunderstanding:

I am no expert, as I rarely put out the required coin, but I have never had an Egon Muller Kabinett that I thought of as a “sweet” wine.

David rarely pays the high prices required to buy Egon's wines.
You suggest that he doesn't have to worry about price simply because he doesn't care about the German auction prices.

What's the confusion

Nope - I’m suggesting that if price is truly the least interesting thing about wine then you must be able to ignore it.

[A.Gillette]

Your misunderstanding of David’s point is of epic proportions. Kindly consult post #3 for proof.

What was David’s point Tom? Post 3 appears to be about whether Egon is reliably within Pradikat. Enlighten me.
A

I got the impression he just meant that he'd rather pay attention to enjoying the contents of the bottle than an auction record.

I would too.
A

[DanielP]

Here is post 3, so you can clear up the EPIC misunderstanding:

David rarely pays the high prices required to buy Egon's wines.
You suggest that he doesn't have to worry about price simply because he doesn't care about the German auction prices.

What's the confusion

Nope - I’m suggesting that if price is truly the least interesting thing about wine then you must be able to ignore it.

Of course... if you're not an auction buyer in the first place, which is obviously the implication.

[A.Gillette]

David rarely pays the high prices required to buy Egon's wines.
You suggest that he doesn't have to worry about price simply because he doesn't care about the German auction prices.

What's the confusion

Nope - I’m suggesting that if price is truly the least interesting thing about wine then you must be able to ignore it.

Of course... if you're not an auction buyer in the first place, which is obviously the implication.

The wine I’m taking about is a wine that is only sold at auction. You are either an auction buyer or not a buyer at all. I suppose there is a bit of a secondary market, but given that the wine is initially sold at auction, and the producer can never sell at less than the auction price, I’m not sure what it means to be a buyer other than an auction buyer. You are always subject to the auction price, I think. Are you sure you understand how the wine I’m talking about - the Egon Alte Reben Kabinett - it sold?

[DanielP]

Nope - I’m suggesting that if price is truly the least interesting thing about wine then you must be able to ignore it.

Of course... if you're not an auction buyer in the first place, which is obviously the implication.

The wine I’m taking about is a wine that is only sold at auction. You are either an auction buyer or not a buyer at all. I suppose there is a bit of a secondary market, but given that the wine is initially sold at auction, and the producer can never sell at less than the auction price, I’m not sure what it means to be a buyer other than an auction buyer. You are always subject to the auction price, I think. Are you sure you understand how the wine I’m talking about - the Egon Alte Reben Kabinett - it sold?

Yes, and the regular kabinett, which I assume is what David is drinking, and for which he rarely puts out the required coin, is not an auction wine.

[A.Gillette]

Of course... if you're not an auction buyer in the first place, which is obviously the implication.

The wine I’m taking about is a wine that is only sold at auction. You are either an auction buyer or not a buyer at all. I suppose there is a bit of a secondary market, but given that the wine is initially sold at auction, and the producer can never sell at less than the auction price, I’m not sure what it means to be a buyer other than an auction buyer. You are always subject to the auction price, I think. Are you sure you understand how the wine I’m talking about - the Egon Alte Reben Kabinett - it sold?

Yes, and the regular kabinett, which I assume is what David is drinking, and for which he rarely puts out the required coin, is not an auction wine.

Huh. Did not realize that his response, which quoted auction prices, to my post about an auction wine, was about the non-auction kabi. Thanks for clearing that up Daniel!
A

Anything to do with auction prices.

[DanielP]

Yikes

[D@vid Bu3ker]

OK, let me clear this up.

I have zero interest in auction prices, as I don’t buy auction wines. I used to, and don’t see the incremental quality increase to be worth the more than incremental price increases. Plus, auction wines tend to be bigger and richer most (not all) of the time, and I don’t normally go for that in my preferred Rieslings.

Of course I pay attention to pricing on regular wines. $75+ for Egon Müller Kabinett is now outside my preferred range, especially since I have never felt they were better than say J.J. Prüm. Different, yes. Better, no.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

By the way, the wines we actually drank were really fantastic.

[Robert Dentice]

Some interesting comments regarding the Egon Müller Kabinett. I doubt very much they use declassified grapes with botrytis. I recall Mr. Müller talking on a panel discussion focused on classic Kabinetts saying the irony of this class is that it actually takes more work and expense to make a Kabinett because you need special parcels in cooler areas, much more attention than just simply letting the grapes get riper for higher pradikats. And yet the market will not pay more for a Kabinett than a Spatlese or Auslese because that is just that way it is. Admittedly this was before his Alte Reben starting selling for what it sells today auction. Nevertheless the sentiment is still the same with a few minor exceptions.

Also Egon Müller never really made dry wines in the 80s although I do know they accidentally made one in I believe 83.

I personally still buy some of the Kabinetts which will soon be over $100 for the non-auction but I view them as more like a top Spatlese. I much prefer Falkenstein when I want a classic Kabinett.

[Russell Faulkner]

It’s a lot harder to make Kabinett than Spatlese and Auslese I believe.

We are seeing prices rise for a good few ‘old fashioned’ Kabinett wines. Which I view as a good thing. Though Egon’s Kabi can often creep up in alcohol.

Currently drinking 2004 Le Gallais Auction Auslese. Beautiful despite a dodgy cork and being slightly advanced.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Some interesting comments regarding the Egon Müller Kabinett. I doubt very much they use declassified grapes with botrytis. I recall Mr. Müller talking on a panel discussion focused on classic Kabinetts saying the irony of this class is that it actually takes more work and expense to make a Kabinett because you need special parcels in cooler areas, much more attention than just simply letting the grapes get riper for higher pradikats. And yet the market will not pay more for a Kabinett than a Spatlese or Auslese because that is just that way it is. Admittedly this was before his Alte Reben starting selling for what it sells today auction. Nevertheless the sentiment is still the same with a few minor exceptions.

I was also a bit mystified at the “botrytis” comments for the Kabinett, but figured it wasn’t worth getting into it.

I’ll happily pay more for a fine Kabinett, but Müller has hit a wall for me. I won’t pay for the spätlese either.

[Russell Faulkner]

I’ve heard that all the wines have botrytisied grapes. But don’t recall the source.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

That would also be dependent on the season to support it.

[A.Gillette]

I’ve heard that all the wines have botrytisied grapes. But don’t recall the source.

Stephen Brook talks extensively about it in “The Wines of Germany”. And Egon IV has spoken about it as well in various interviews. Again, I think it is no longer the case, although I have no idea if it’s stopped as a matter of practice or as a reflection of the vintage.
A

[A.Gillette]

Here’s a good example from a quick internet search:

ROSS: It seems the majority of German winemakers avoid botrytis in their Kabinett and Spatlese, as if it is a danger.

Egon: I don’t see it as a danger, I see it as something that can give to the wine more complex flavors and aromas than a wine without botrytis. 1997 was maybe a once in a lifetime vintage with very little or no botrytis and extremely ripe grapes and wines that have been flavorful and nice to drink from the start. If I look at other vintages with little botrytis like 2001, 1996, or 1990, then you have wines that are very hard and very difficult to assess when young. The 1990’s are really only just starting to open now and I think if there was a little more botrytis in 1990 the wines would have developed much more favorably - they would not necessarily have turned into greater wines. They were drinking well for one year after bottling and then they shut down completely and took ten years to come back again. With a little bit of botrytis there would have been a softer transition.

Full interview:

http://www.enologyinternational.com/muller.php

[D@vid Bu3ker]

That’s not a terribly unique point of view. Helmut Dönnhoff has said similar things, specifically regarding his 1990s, which he thought could have used a touch.

[A.Gillette]

Back at home in NYC with my books. Brook quoted Mueller as saying that botrytis grapes went into the Kabi and spat in 89, 97 and 99 because it rained at the end of harvest and “the grapes had lost concentration and acidity by the time they were picked”. I’ve had the latter two of those wines. Reinhardt says “for finesse, sophistication l, and precision, [the kabinett] is unmatched by any wine in the world, especially when it is botrytis-free”.

Brook also noted that some dry wines were produced from 1980-1996 “but the Mullers themselves often found these wines disappointing”.

A

[D@vid Bu3ker]

I would debate it being “unmatched.”

[Robert Dentice]

Back at home in NYC with my books. Brook quoted Mueller as saying that botrytis grapes went into the Kabi and spat in 89, 97 and 99 because it rained at the end of harvest and “the grapes had lost concentration and acidity by the time they were picked”. I’ve had the latter two of those wines. Reinhardt says “for finesse, sophistication l, and precision, [the kabinett] is unmatched by any wine in the world, especially when it is botrytis-free”.

Brook also noted that some dry wines were produced from 1980-1996 “but the Mullers themselves often found these wines disappointing”.

A

I read your earlier comment as they always put in declassified botrytis grapes in the Kabinett which I found very hard to believe. Based on the things you posted here it looks like depending on the vintage they might use them / are open to it which I can see.

As far as the dry wines the only one I have ever seen was the 83 in the cellar. I think I heard they made a GG in 2018 or did I dream this?

[A.Gillette]

Back at home in NYC with my books. Brook quoted Mueller as saying that botrytis grapes went into the Kabi and spat in 89, 97 and 99 because it rained at the end of harvest and “the grapes had lost concentration and acidity by the time they were picked”. I’ve had the latter two of those wines. Reinhardt says “for finesse, sophistication l, and precision, [the kabinett] is unmatched by any wine in the world, especially when it is botrytis-free”.

Brook also noted that some dry wines were produced from 1980-1996 “but the Mullers themselves often found these wines disappointing”.

A

I read your earlier comment as they always put in declassified botrytis grapes in the Kabinett which I found very hard to believe. Based on the things you posted here it looks like depending on the vintage they might use them / are open to it which I can see.

As far as the dry wines the only one I have ever seen was the 83 in the cellar. I think I heard they made a GG in 2018 or did I dream this?

The MFW guys reportied that Egon is trying to make a GG and have a barrel that is still fermenting (with the implication that it maybe ferments to dryness).

I definitely didn't mean to imply that the kabi always has botrytis grapes. I haven't noticed any in recent vintages. I had a dry '89 that I bought at chambers. It might have been labelled as a Qba. I can go back and check.
A

[Robert Dentice]

Lets hope the wine does not ferment all the way to dryness A dry GG will go for crazy prices at the auction. Not sure what a Egon Muller Feinherb would sell for but surely a lot less than a GG.

[D@vid Bu3ker]

Not sure what a Egon Muller Feinherb would sell for but surely a lot less than a GG.

Loewen 1896 Feinherb already goes for $75+ at retail (using grapes for what used to be a $15 wine). At what point does it just become stupid.

[Russell Faulkner]

I don’t think a GG will go to auction at the Grosser Ring during at least the current presidency.

[Robert Dentice]

I don’t think a GG will go to auction at the Grosser Ring during at least the current presidency.

Don't tell me Trump is also against GGs!

[Russell Faulkner]

My president if Herr Von Schubert.

Who is this Trump fellow? Maybe the Rheinhessen VDP?

[Jayson Cohen]

Lets hope the wine does not ferment all the way to dryness A dry GG will go for crazy prices at the auction. Not sure what a Egon Muller Feinherb would sell for but surely a lot less than a GG.

Is the first time anyone has ever hoped for a stuck fermentation?

[D@vid Bu3ker]

I hope for them every time a German winery tries to make a trocken. #godblessfeinherb

[Lars Carlberg]

Joking aside, I've been told that GGs in large format will be offered by a famous estate at this year's Grosser Ring auction in Trier, but not Egon Müller.

On my visit to the Scharzhof in April, I was also told that they had one cask earmarked for GG, but the wine was still fermenting and not yet legally dry. (It had about 95 degrees Oechsle.) And even then Egon Müller was not certain if they will designate it as a GG or even release it for sale. He has always argued that the Scharzhofberger wines need residual sugar for balance. But, actually, the fame of the Scharzhofberger was for both dry and off-dry wines in the 19th century, even if climate change has made it easier to achieve ripe grapes.

I know that Egon Müller produced a 1988 Scharzhofberger Spätlese trocken and a 1998 Scharzhofberger Kabinett trocken, but the estate has always focused on residually sweet wines. In past vintages, his Kabinetts tend to have slightly higher alcohol because of the relatively lower residual sugar. There was a brief period when the Kabinetts were quite sweet. As for botrytis, a small percentage adds complexity, if it's handled and vinified properly. But most winemakers avoid botrytized grapes for Kabinett.

[Russell Faulkner]

I think offering GG at auction is a mistake. If for no reason other than the auction already taking far too long!

I’m surprised smaller members would be in favour of it since it seems even less likely their wines would be included if the best ones offered even more wines.

Let’s see.

[Russell Faulkner]

Well, it seems quite a lot of GG magnums will be auctioned.

[dvansteenderen]

I don’t think a GG will go to auction at the Grosser Ring during at least the current presidency.

Schloss Lieser will auction their new Graacher Domprobst GG and DOCTOR GG on Magnum this September if I am not mistaking...

[Russell Faulkner]

Yes. Read the following posts. Grunhaus and others too.

[dvansteenderen]

Yes. Read the following posts. Grunhaus and others too.

Is the auction list already made available?

[A.Gillette]

I don’t think a GG will go to auction at the Grosser Ring during at least the current presidency.

Schloss Lieser will auction their new Graacher Domprobst GG and DOCTOR GG on Magnum this September if I am not mistaking...

Is this the only way the doctor GG will be offered or will it still be offered alone or through the mixed case via regular channels?
Thanks
Alex

[Lars Carlberg]

Yes. Read the following posts. Grunhaus and others too.

Yes, I was referring to Maximin Grünhaus in my previous post (#42), but I wasn't sure if it should be made public.

[dvansteenderen]

I don’t think a GG will go to auction at the Grosser Ring during at least the current presidency.

Schloss Lieser will auction their new Graacher Domprobst GG and DOCTOR GG on Magnum this September if I am not mistaking...

Is this the only way the doctor GG will be offered or will it still be offered alone or through the mixed case via regular channels?
Thanks
Alex

To my knowledge:

The DOCTOR GG will be sold in a Terroir Kiste only.
The Terroir case:
“The limited wooden terroir case (500 for the entire world!) combines six Grosse Gewächse of the best terroir the Mosel valley has to offer. Only in this case you will get exclusively the current Doctor GG together with Wehlener Sonnenuhr GG, Himmelreich GG, Niederberg Helden GG, Juffer Sonnenuhr GG und Goldtröpfchen GG of the vintage 2018. All 6 wines are personally signed from the winemaker and owner Thomas Haag.”

The DOCTOR GG on Magnum will only be sold at the Auction.