Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

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K. R. Baker
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Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#1 Post by K. R. Baker » May 23rd, 2019, 6:40 pm

I’ve gone on a tasting spree, and ‘15 Bordeaux in the $50-100 absolutely slays nearly everything coming out of Napa (in any recent vintage) at a similar price point.

Am I alone?
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#2 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 23rd, 2019, 7:00 pm

Ha. In almost all years!

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#3 Post by julianseersmartin » May 23rd, 2019, 7:02 pm

Nope. I don't think I've found a single Napa cab that is comparable in quality in that price range (the straight Dunn Napa Valley maybe?) and I've been looking for ages. Looking forward to hearing some ideas for examples.

I think what's even more amazing is the $25-50 price bracket from BDX. Cannot think of a single californian cabernet that I'd rather drink over something like Cantemerle for example.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#4 Post by crickey » May 23rd, 2019, 7:13 pm

No, it's not just you. In a strong vintage (and 2015 was a strong vintage in Bordeaux) and in that price range, Bordeaux will beat almost any other cab/merlot. That is its strong suit. I can name some very good Napa cabs for under $100, but you generally need to get above $100, or even above $150, for Napa cabs to consistently hold their own against comparably-priced Bordeaux. Land prices and production volume matter. I happen to like both kinds of wine (they constitute a large portion of my cellar), but I will unhesitatingly buy $50-70 bottles of Bordeaux where I would have to look long and hard before buying something at that price from Napa.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#5 Post by Chris Seiber » May 23rd, 2019, 7:55 pm

While I don’t really feel the need to bludgeon Napa with it, Bordeaux has killer QPR in good vintages, once you get out of the collector / speculator / trophy categories.

There is so much (deservedly) 90+ point Bordeaux for under $30 and even under $20 in good vintages.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#6 Post by Tom DeBiase » May 23rd, 2019, 8:46 pm

For sure the field of QPR is tilted toward Bordeaux but there are gems in Napa well under $100 and every bit as traditional in style as Bordeaux. My favorite is Frogs Leap, specifically the Estate Grown Cabernet. The 2016 is the current release. Consists of 91% Cabernet Sauvignon, 6% Cab Franc, 3% Merlot. 13.8% alcohol, very fresh profile, no jammy syrupy notes here. Loads of natural acidity to balance the fruit.
The 2016 is $65.00 at the winery, below $60.00 at some retailers. I have seen the 2015 for even less. If you care about such things (I don't) Galloni loves it.

You may need to search but when you find a real traditionally made Cab in Napa (or California really) it can be outstanding cuz you know that the sun kissed California fruit will always be there [cheers.gif]

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#7 Post by Kris Patten » May 23rd, 2019, 9:01 pm

We sell them so take with a grain of salt, but Hess Mt. Veeder or Heitz come to mind.

I do agree that BDX is back to offering great value based on the recent run of vintages.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#8 Post by Mark Y » May 23rd, 2019, 9:05 pm

is there a price point where Bdx doesn't own Napa? no jokes.. and i don't mean the $500+ category where u can argue if a scarecrow/harlan/screagle is better than a lafite/margaux..

but is there a level where Napa owns Bdx in terms of value these days? and i don't mean outlier. i mean generally speaking..
<$50
50-100
100-200
?
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#9 Post by Chris Seiber » May 23rd, 2019, 9:28 pm

Mark Y wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 9:05 pm
is there a price point where Bdx doesn't own Napa? no jokes.. and i don't mean the $500+ category where u can argue if a scarecrow/harlan/screagle is better than a lafite/margaux..

but is there a level where Napa owns Bdx in terms of value these days? and i don't mean outlier. i mean generally speaking..
<$50
50-100
100-200
?
Not sure I care about ownage, I just buy individual wines I like from both places. Especially if you broaden from Napa to Northern California — there are good cab and merlot wines from Santa Cruz, Sonoma, Humboldt and elsewhere.

But I agree non-trophy BDX in good vintages is a great buy.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#10 Post by David Baum » May 23rd, 2019, 9:40 pm

Kris Patten wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 9:01 pm
We sell them so take with a grain of salt, but Hess Mt. Veeder or Heitz come to mind.

I do agree that BDX is back to offering great value based on the recent run of vintages.
Had 2012 Hess Mt Veeder at cousins wedding last weekend and was surprised how good it was

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#11 Post by Alan Eden » May 23rd, 2019, 9:59 pm

Becklyn cab $65
RM Cab $65

Two that spring to mind

Macdonald at $165 does not have a match in Bdx
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#12 Post by Otto Dobre » May 23rd, 2019, 10:12 pm

They are quite different, so it's simply a matter of preferences.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#13 Post by Tom Reddick » May 23rd, 2019, 10:17 pm

Not just you. There are always specific exceptions, but Bordeaux is looking pretty good these days- and not just compared to Napa, but also to Italy, and even to Bordeaux itself. There is still a lot of 2009 and 2010 in the distribution and retail chains at prices as much as double where 2016s have come out.

There has been so much excitement, and growing dramatically as people I know taste the wines now that they are in bottle and being released, over 2016 that I am seeing activity levels like I have not seen since the 2000 vintage.

Here in Dallas for example- I happened to be at a Total Wine location the day their recent batch of 2016s arrived. They were on trolleys and not even in the system yet. Got a tasting bottle of Montrose (already had case coming on futures) and a bottle and 6 pack of Ducru. It appears each of the many stores in DFW got 2 full cases of each in addition to any concierge futures orders. Came home and told 2 friends about it- both went in the next day. One got the last 5 bottles of Ducru in the entire DFW area and had to drive a ways to collect them (and no Montrose). Other guy- nothing.

The wines evaporated in less than 24 hours. Not since the 2000s hitting Costco have I seen the like.

Meanwhile, the otherworldly 2015 Mondavi Cabernet Reserve (a must-have IMHO)- $137.50 at the winery after the standard 20% off if you just sign up on their email list- but I got 2 cases for just over $100 on closeout here in Dallas and other threads have reported 2 digit prices in some markets.

So there is definitely some opportunity in CA too if you look at wines that are being- in my opinion- excessively discounted in anticipation of a future tough market for CA Cab.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#14 Post by Mike Maguire » May 23rd, 2019, 10:48 pm

Call me a homer, but. If talking qpr I’ll take Washington all day every day!!!

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#15 Post by Brian G r a f s t r o m » May 23rd, 2019, 10:58 pm

Bdx. generally wipes the floor with Napa. That, combined with full-fledged acceptance of my personal preferences, is why I don't buy Napa Cab. anymore. I do, however, still keep my eyes open for aged Napa Cabs from the '90's from producers that aren't "cool" --- many are quite delicious, and underpriced in the market.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#16 Post by Craig G » May 23rd, 2019, 11:24 pm

Alan Eden wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 9:59 pm
Macdonald at $165 does not have a match in Bdx
That’s why you can’t buy it for $165 :-)
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#17 Post by Andrew Demaree » May 24th, 2019, 12:00 am

For my palate, I prefer Napa. But, I’m open to finding good Bordeaux values, especially under $50, where Napa does struggle more. Suggestions most definitely welcome.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#18 Post by Mark Y » May 24th, 2019, 12:04 am

Craig G wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 11:24 pm
Alan Eden wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 9:59 pm
Macdonald at $165 does not have a match in Bdx
That’s why you can’t buy it for $165 :-)
Hahahah that’s true. But I actually disagree there’s no match.
Ducru? Cos? Pichon lalande? Conseilante?
Not saying it’s better than MacD but it’s in the same league no?
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#19 Post by Steve Crawford » May 24th, 2019, 8:00 am

Mike Maguire wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 10:48 pm
Call me a homer, but. If talking qpr I’ll take Washington all day every day!!!
what would you say is some of the best in the 90-120 range, besides QC

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#20 Post by Jim Hartten » May 24th, 2019, 8:10 am

Fully agree that Bordeaux offers much better QPR at nearly every price point. What can you get from CA for $25-$30 that is interesting? Wines like the 2018 Calon Segur, Rauzan Segla, Beychevelle, Canon, Domaine de Chevelier, etc., selling for between roughly $75 - $110. Like to see what these wines taste like in 20 years next to the super cabs people are paying $300 - $500 a bottle for. [stirthepothal.gif]

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#21 Post by H Wallace Jr » May 24th, 2019, 8:16 am

Otto Dobre wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 10:12 pm
They are quite different, so it's simply a matter of preferences.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#22 Post by Chris Seiber » May 24th, 2019, 10:34 am

This is really a much more interesting question if you replace Napa with Northern California. Wines like Dehlinger, Mount Eden, Ridge, Big Basin, Cabot, Kathryn Kennedy, Clos Saron / Renaissance, A Rafanelli, Briceland, Arnot-Roberts, and many others.

Actually, I'm still not sure it's that interesting of a question. No consumer has to pick one region over the other, as though you're choosing who to root for in a sporting event or something. Just buy the individual wines that you want to buy. I find things I like from both places.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#23 Post by bob poirier » May 24th, 2019, 10:45 am

Bordeaux is only a better QPR if you prefer Bordeaux to Napa..........

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#24 Post by Nick F. » May 24th, 2019, 11:19 am

The hardest part for me, is when I think of Bordeaux, I think cellar and wait. When I think the napa market in the 2-50 price range has become a more pop and pour wine.

This is what prevents me from getting into BDX
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#25 Post by Claus Jeppesen » May 24th, 2019, 11:29 am

Many Bdx taste more like Napa then Bdx
Unfortunately
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#26 Post by Howard Cooper » May 24th, 2019, 4:18 pm

Mark Y wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 12:04 am
Craig G wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 11:24 pm
Alan Eden wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 9:59 pm
Macdonald at $165 does not have a match in Bdx
That’s why you can’t buy it for $165 :-)
Hahahah that’s true. But I actually disagree there’s no match.
Ducru? Cos? Pichon lalande? Conseilante?
Not saying it’s better than MacD but it’s in the same league no?
Montrose - 2014 is $149
Pichon Lalande - 2014 is $139
Ducru - 2000 is $200 [for a wine almost 20 years old!!!]
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#27 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 25th, 2019, 3:10 am

Andrew Demaree wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 12:00 am
For my palate, I prefer Napa. But, I’m open to finding good Bordeaux values, especially under $50, where Napa does struggle more. Suggestions most definitely welcome.
Since you are more of a Napa fan, try to find a bottle of 2015 Haut Bergey. Should run you about $30-$35.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#28 Post by Larry Stein » May 25th, 2019, 3:34 am

What traditional style Bordeaux is in the $30-50 range? I thoroughly dislike modern style Cab/Cab blends no matter where they’re from. Through friends, I can get 2016 Ridge Estate Cab for $45.50 (30% discount). For me, that’s the gold standard in CA. What Bordeaux is in that class?

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#29 Post by Andrew Demaree » May 25th, 2019, 7:07 am

Thanks, David.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#30 Post by Glen Gold » May 25th, 2019, 7:31 am

Larry Stein wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 3:34 am
What traditional style Bordeaux is in the $30-50 range? I thoroughly dislike modern style Cab/Cab blends no matter where they’re from. Through friends, I can get 2016 Ridge Estate Cab for $45.50 (30% discount). For me, that’s the gold standard in CA. What Bordeaux is in that class?
Others might disagree with this, but I've always felt that Dame de Montrose is to Montrose what Ridge Estate is to Monte Bello. You can pick it up for about $40-50 in most years. There are also vintages like 2014 in which Domaine de Chevalier comes out around $50, though that's becoming rarer.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#31 Post by Gabe Berk » May 25th, 2019, 10:33 am

IMO, the best California can compete with Bordeaux as far as QPR for $50-100 is Chappellet Signature Cab. $60 for pretty much all estate fruit who's neighbors include Colgin, Bryant and Continuum to name a few. Usually in the 93-96 pts range from the reviewers. And family owned!

As a whole Bordeaux offers much more $50-$100 QPR wines. Especially $20-$30 range.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#32 Post by Robert.A.Jr. » May 25th, 2019, 10:54 am

Gabe Berk wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 10:33 am
IMO, the best California can compete with Bordeaux as far as QPR for $50-100 is Chappellet Signature Cab. $60 for pretty much all estate fruit who's neighbors include Colgin, Bryant and Continuum to name a few. Usually in the 93-96 pts range from the reviewers. And family owned!

As a whole Bordeaux offers much more $50-$100 QPR wines. Especially $20-$30 range.
Solid recommendation, as would be the Ridge Estate Cab.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#33 Post by Pat Martin » May 25th, 2019, 5:01 pm

Otto Dobre wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 10:12 pm
They are quite different, so it's simply a matter of preferences.
Yes.

Thus the OP is correct, but primarily when someone likes both regions.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#34 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 25th, 2019, 5:04 pm

Pat Martin wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 5:01 pm
Otto Dobre wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 10:12 pm
They are quite different, so it's simply a matter of preferences.
Yes.

Thus the OP is correct, but primarily when someone likes both regions.
For fans of classic Napa Cabernet, Bordeaux is a treasure trove. For fans of classic Bordeaux, Napa Cabernet is a mine field.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#35 Post by Pat Martin » May 25th, 2019, 5:31 pm

D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 5:04 pm
Pat Martin wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 5:01 pm
Otto Dobre wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 10:12 pm
They are quite different, so it's simply a matter of preferences.
Yes.

Thus the OP is correct, but primarily when someone likes both regions.
For fans of classic Napa Cabernet, Bordeaux is a treasure trove. For fans of classic Bordeaux, Napa Cabernet is a mine field.
I concur. Classic is the key word.

But overall, I meant that the premise of the thread can really only apply to those who can readily enjoy various producers from both styles/regions.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#36 Post by Thomas Keim » May 25th, 2019, 6:39 pm

Who cares? They are entirely different wines. Like Comparing California Pinot Noir with Burgundy.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#37 Post by A1ex H » May 25th, 2019, 11:47 pm

Sure it's about preferences but at this point, after what has happened in Burgundy and the Northern Rhone, non-trophy Bordeaux has become some of the best QPRs in red wine.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#38 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 26th, 2019, 6:30 am

Thomas Keim wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 6:39 pm
Who cares? They are entirely different wines. Like Comparing California Pinot Noir with Burgundy.
Bordeaux can still scratch the Cabernet (or Merlot) itch, especially the more modern wines. Wines such as Fombrauge are less about St. Emilion and more about ripe Merlot.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#39 Post by Tom Reddick » May 26th, 2019, 9:02 pm

Thomas Keim wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 6:39 pm
Who cares? They are entirely different wines. Like Comparing California Pinot Noir with Burgundy.
I think it is a useful conversation in this context because there is, at least in the United States, a fair amount of overlap when it comes to those who collect Bordeaux and those who collect CA Cab.

During my retail years while in college and grad school, I discovered that most of the higher end collectors I worked with tended to specialize to some degree. And, for a variety of reasons, the overlap varied depending on the region.

For example- I do not recall anyone who was a major collector of both Burgundy and CA Pinot. Sure many who collected one might often have a very little bit of the other- but never was anyone actively buying both at similar levels.

Italy, on the other hand, seemed to be everyone's friend. Whether Italy specialists, Bordeaux, Burgundy or Cab lover- almost everyone bought good Italian wines in some measure. Same goes for Champagne.

The Bordeaux - CA Cab overlap is somewhere in between, and having been on the front lines, in retail and later in appraisal and being a market follower in general, during the various booms and busts since the mid 90s, I have found that there is not only a large contingent who have a shared loved for Bordeaux and CA Cab- but that many of them adjust their buying strategies over time to focus on where they see the best value for their money. A sort of dollar cost averaging approach to the wine cellar, if you will. I really do not see this much in any other pairing of two regions- the latter point I mean.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#40 Post by David Glasser » May 27th, 2019, 4:10 am

Pat Martin wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 5:31 pm
D@vid Bu3ker wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 5:04 pm
Pat Martin wrote:
May 25th, 2019, 5:01 pm


Yes.

Thus the OP is correct, but primarily when someone likes both regions.
For fans of classic Napa Cabernet, Bordeaux is a treasure trove. For fans of classic Bordeaux, Napa Cabernet is a mine field.
I concur. Classic is the key word.

But overall, I meant that the premise of the thread can really only apply to those who can readily enjoy various producers from both styles/regions.
Nicely summarized. In the $20-$50 range especially, and even at $50-$100, there is a lot from Bordeaux that satisfies my palate, not so much from Napa. Yet I still like Napa Cab.

The first 10 years or so of my wine obsession I pursued Napa Cab and Bordeaux almost equally, drinking the former while waiting for the latter to mature. I didn’t seek best value for money as Tom has observed but almost the opposite, buying more in the "best" vintages. My definition of best has shifted along with my palate and I now buy a lot more Bordeaux than Napa, but I still buy Napa selectively.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#41 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 27th, 2019, 4:22 am

Two different beasts. Once you add Santa Cruz Mountains, the choices become a little better. I sill gravitate heavily towards Bordeaux, but have no problem picking up Togni, Ridge and Mount Eden, all decent values.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#42 Post by Howard Cooper » May 27th, 2019, 4:30 am

I guess I don’t view them as separate beasts. Both California Cab and Bordeaux today have many spoofed wines that I stay away from. But, both regions have many classicly styled wines that I would consider pretty much competitive with each other, certainly in the sense I would buy either (and have over the years) and likely drink either with pretty much the same types of food.

And, for me, both have really become minefields because both have so many spoofed wines. Given that I don’t buy as much of either as I used to, I have trouble keeping up with who has turned to the dark side. Fortunately, this board (esp. posts from people like Mark and Robert) are very helpful in that regard.
Howard

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#43 Post by Gerhard P. » May 27th, 2019, 5:01 am

Price point aside: how well do US-Cabs AGE ... compared to fine Bordeaux? ... and I mean mature wines that show real tertiaer aromas with sound structure, providing immense pleasure when drinking?

My experience with US Cabs is limited - more so at lower price point, but I know quite a few that showed very well at age 25/30/40 years ... however that were high end wines, nothing available below 100 $, usually 200+
(ok, Montelena isn´t THAT expensive - is it?)
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#44 Post by Mike Maguire » May 27th, 2019, 5:54 am

Steve Crawford wrote:
May 24th, 2019, 8:00 am
Mike Maguire wrote:
May 23rd, 2019, 10:48 pm
Call me a homer, but. If talking qpr I’ll take Washington all day every day!!!
what would you say is some of the best in the 90-120 range, besides QC
Leonetti comes to mind, for near term drinking I like most of the Januik lineup.For wines that will go 10+ Years I would recommend Andrew Will, Woodword Canyon Old Vines and most anything from Red Mountain

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#45 Post by Jim Brennan » May 27th, 2019, 6:20 am

Non-modernist Bordeaux and some of the more reserved California wines aren't the same, but both can scratch my itch for nuanced cab driven wines with a sense of place. Of course, a few other regions can do that as well.

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#46 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 27th, 2019, 6:50 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 5:01 am
Price point aside: how well do US-Cabs AGE ... compared to fine Bordeaux? ... and I mean mature wines that show real tertiaer aromas with sound structure, providing immense pleasure when drinking?

My experience with US Cabs is limited - more so at lower price point, but I know quite a few that showed very well at age 25/30/40 years ... however that were high end wines, nothing available below 100 $, usually 200+
(ok, Montelena isn´t THAT expensive - is it?)
I regularly get to taste ‘70s and ‘80s Napa Cabs from classic producers, and they are often wonderful. The ‘74 Mayacamas I had ten days ago was still holding some fruit, but also had cedar and earthy notes and a long, complex finish with perfect structural balance. I have had similar experiences with old Mondavi, Clos du Val, Heitz and others. There are still classic producers in Napa (e.g. Heitz, Stony Hill), and I am quite confident their wines will evolve very well.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#47 Post by T. Altmayer » May 29th, 2019, 10:26 pm

QPR Napa cabs are difficult to find, but not impossible. 2015 Picayune Cab for $30 from Envoyer was lovely tonight, a wine that I would buy at $50.
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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#48 Post by Howard Cooper » May 30th, 2019, 4:22 am

Jim Brennan wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 6:20 am
Non-modernist Bordeaux and some of the more reserved California wines aren't the same, but both can scratch my itch for nuanced cab driven wines with a sense of place. Of course, a few other regions can do that as well.
Of course they are not the same. How could either scratch anyone's itch for wines with a sense of place if wines from thousands of miles away from each other tasted the same.
Howard

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#49 Post by Howard Cooper » May 30th, 2019, 4:29 am

Gerhard P. wrote:
May 27th, 2019, 5:01 am
Price point aside: how well do US-Cabs AGE ... compared to fine Bordeaux? ... and I mean mature wines that show real tertiaer aromas with sound structure, providing immense pleasure when drinking?

My experience with US Cabs is limited - more so at lower price point, but I know quite a few that showed very well at age 25/30/40 years ... however that were high end wines, nothing available below 100 $, usually 200+
(ok, Montelena isn´t THAT expensive - is it?)
California Cabernets do not age like Bordeaux. California Cabernets age like California Cabernets. This is not the 1970s. The ability of top California Cabernets like Ridge Montebello, Chateau Montelena, Dunn, Dominus, Mondavi Reserve, the old Sterling Cabernets (most similar now would be Forman, as Ric Forman made those Sterling Cabernets), and wines that used to be made as BV Reserve, Inglenook Cask or Phelps Insignia long ago proved that California Cabernet if made properly can age very, very well and for a very long time. However, where wineries turn to the dark side, the ability of the wines made to age in the way you describe becomes questionable. Wineries on both sides of the Atlantic (whether Phelps or Troplong Mondot) have this issue.
Howard

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Re: Is it just me? Napa vs Bordeaux QPR

#50 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » May 30th, 2019, 4:40 am

Is there any wine region in the world that offers the value Bordeaux still does in the $35-50 range? You can still get excellent classed growths like Branaire Ducru or various Margaux in that range, or new right bank up and comers like Tour Christophe

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