Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

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Josh Grossman
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#101 Post by Josh Grossman » May 3rd, 2019, 11:37 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am

Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
That is how you judge a wine?
Yep, if it taste more like oak than wine, I write it off as an oak monster.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#102 Post by Greg K » May 3rd, 2019, 11:39 am

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am
Greg K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:29 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:01 am

I do believe there is terroir, old vines, and Serine/different clones that are almost guaranteed to make good wine despite owners best efforts. My question back would be could the Lala's be even better if someone like Marc Sorrel, Clape, or Christophe Billon owned those vines (instead of someone who makes millions of cases a year?)
I suspect Sorrel would make better wine, but I also think it's very very possible to make bad wine from great grapes/terroir.
Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
I'm not arguing with that.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#103 Post by Greg K » May 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am

Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
That is how you judge a wine?
If he doesn't like oak in his wine, why would he like a wine that spends 3 years in new oak? [scratch.gif]

I also don't like oak, which is a reason I don't particularly like Guigal's wines.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#104 Post by Jeff Leve » May 3rd, 2019, 12:15 pm

Greg K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am

Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
That is how you judge a wine?
If he doesn't like oak in his wine, why would he like a wine that spends 3 years in new oak? [scratch.gif]

I also don't like oak, which is a reason I don't particularly like Guigal's wines.
I do not taste wine by the numbers. I taste wine by what is in the glass. I also do not want to drink an oaky wine. But to state any wine that spends X amount of time in oak to not be good, is silly. To taste a wine, and state it is oaky and that you do not like it, that is completely understandable.

FWIW, on maturity, I do not find Guigal to be oaky. But that's just me.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#105 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » May 3rd, 2019, 12:21 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:15 pm

FWIW, on maturity, I do not find Guigal to be oaky. But that's just me.
I agree with you, although that tends to take 30 or so years for me.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#106 Post by Greg K » May 3rd, 2019, 12:43 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:15 pm
Greg K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am


That is how you judge a wine?
If he doesn't like oak in his wine, why would he like a wine that spends 3 years in new oak? [scratch.gif]

I also don't like oak, which is a reason I don't particularly like Guigal's wines.
I do not taste wine by the numbers. I taste wine by what is in the glass. I also do not want to drink an oaky wine. But to state any wine that spends X amount of time in oak to not be good, is silly. To taste a wine, and state it is oaky and that you do not like it, that is completely understandable.

FWIW, on maturity, I do not find Guigal to be oaky. But that's just me.
I don't know what Guigal's wines today (when they spend more time in new oak than before) will be like in 30 years, but if that's what it takes for the oak to resolve, hard pass. Also, based on your notes Jeff, your tolerance for oak is considerably higher than mine. So when you say at maturity you don't find Guigal oaky, I don't know what means.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#107 Post by Greg K » May 3rd, 2019, 12:43 pm

R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:21 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:15 pm

FWIW, on maturity, I do not find Guigal to be oaky. But that's just me.
I agree with you, although that tends to take 30 or so years for me.
And that's bearing in mind that, based on posts above, they used to spend less time in new oak.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#108 Post by David Glasser » May 3rd, 2019, 12:47 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am

Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
That is how you judge a wine?
Not entirely. Number of winery employees and number of bottles produced apparently count as well.

I don’t see any of these as hard and fast determinants of quality.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#109 Post by Jeff Leve » May 3rd, 2019, 12:50 pm

Greg K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:43 pm
R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:21 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:15 pm

FWIW, on maturity, I do not find Guigal to be oaky. But that's just me.
I agree with you, although that tends to take 30 or so years for me.
And that's bearing in mind that, based on posts above, they used to spend less time in new oak.
Guigal La La's have been aged in 100% new oak since 1971. As for the length of time, it is not that important as the qualities of new oak are fully integrated into the wine long before the full aging period has finished.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#110 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 3rd, 2019, 1:11 pm

David Glasser wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:47 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am

Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
That is how you judge a wine?
Not entirely. Number of winery employees and number of bottles produced apparently count as well.

I don’t see any of these as hard and fast determinants of quality.
And remember they are not just determinants of wine quality, they are apparently also allow judgement upon those who would foolishly drink the wines.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#111 Post by Josh Grossman » May 3rd, 2019, 1:17 pm

David Glasser wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:47 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am

Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
That is how you judge a wine?
Not entirely. Number of winery employees and number of bottles produced apparently count as well.

I don’t see any of these as hard and fast determinants of quality.
This is predominantly a thread about why aged Lalas have a soft secondary market, comparatively. I did my best to explain that, while Northern Rhone is one of my favorite appellations, I (and many people like me) will never be in the market for this winery. While we are also more open to democratic socialism--us millennials still mostly believe in the basic tenants of supply and demand and Keynesian economics. I'd imagine most of the people I'm debating with bought this wine because they like it, and if you like it, then great--but if you are trying to sell it in the future, were a points chaser, or bought it as an investment, I expect Lalas to continue losing value.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#112 Post by Alan Rath » May 3rd, 2019, 1:18 pm

Greg K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:00 am
I do agree that larger estates are more likely to make more homogenized less interesting wine, but that's not a hard and fast rule. There are also plenty of smaller wineries making wine I don't like too.
Bouchard makes any number of outstanding wines, as does Faiveley, both large (or very large, by Burgundy standards) producers. It all comes down to the vineyard sources and winemaking, just as it does for a tiny family producer.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#113 Post by Alan Rath » May 3rd, 2019, 1:20 pm

R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:21 pm
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:15 pm

FWIW, on maturity, I do not find Guigal to be oaky. But that's just me.
I agree with you, although that tends to take 30 or so years for me.
They are still oaky, it's just that the oak is "different" after 30 years. The same wine without so much new oak would be a different - and I think better - wine.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#114 Post by Greg K » May 3rd, 2019, 1:33 pm

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:50 pm
Greg K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:43 pm
R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:21 pm


I agree with you, although that tends to take 30 or so years for me.
And that's bearing in mind that, based on posts above, they used to spend less time in new oak.
Guigal La La's have been aged in 100% new oak since 1971. As for the length of time, it is not that important as the qualities of new oak are fully integrated into the wine long before the full aging period has finished.
That entirely depends on your tolerance of new oak. If you don't mind new oak very much, then sure, you view new oak as integrating relatively quickly. Those people who don't like new oak in wines don't think it integrates as well, especially when the wine spends that long in oak.

As I said in a previous post, when we talk about aging periods and maturity and oak integration, what does that mean? If you're relatively tolerant of oak, it has integrated for you after a relatively short time. If you're not very tolerant of oak, it may "integrate" long after the rest of the wine has fallen apart.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#115 Post by larry schaffer » May 3rd, 2019, 1:33 pm

Oak usage is like anything in winemaking - if that is what you noticed then the wine, to me, is not 'in balance'. Oak tolerance is also so subjective these days - I have plenty of friends who state that they don't like the 'presence of new oak', but when tasting with them, their preferences oftentimes seem to lean towards . . . wines that are noticeably 'oaky' to me.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#116 Post by Greg K » May 3rd, 2019, 1:34 pm

Alan Rath wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 1:18 pm
Greg K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:00 am
I do agree that larger estates are more likely to make more homogenized less interesting wine, but that's not a hard and fast rule. There are also plenty of smaller wineries making wine I don't like too.
Bouchard makes any number of outstanding wines, as does Faiveley, both large (or very large, by Burgundy standards) producers. It all comes down to the vineyard sources and winemaking, just as it does for a tiny family producer.
Agreed, I've had some lovely older Faiveleys. I would never write off a winery just because it's big.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#117 Post by Brian Thorne » May 3rd, 2019, 2:04 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:37 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am

Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
That is how you judge a wine?
Yep, if it taste more like oak than wine, I write it off as an oak monster.
I'm curious Josh, just how many mature La La's have you tasted?

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#118 Post by Josh Grossman » May 3rd, 2019, 3:30 pm

Brian Thorne wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 2:04 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:37 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am


That is how you judge a wine?
Yep, if it taste more like oak than wine, I write it off as an oak monster.
I'm curious Josh, just how many mature La La's have you tasted?
The oldest I've had was a taste of a '99 La Landonne and that was probably five or more years ago--so maybe that wasn't aged enough for the oak to integrate? I've had many Guigal's, but only a few Lalas. I'm almost sure it's not for me--especially when there are so many other great Cote Roties out there that I want to try.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#119 Post by Mel Knox » May 3rd, 2019, 4:57 pm

My point was that just because a company is big does not mean terrific wine cannot be produced. Guigal thinks his wine is great. So do many others. My objection is that he does not buy his barrels from us...then his wine would be so great people would sell their souls to get a bottle. His Cote Roties remind me of Ridge wines---pretty good after the oak integrates.

I'm not sure we can say that Parker's retirement will hurt Guigal or Chapoutier. Will the idea of dim sum and Barolo go away??

Can wine from great vineyards be ruined ??Of course, but as a friend of mine likes to say, If you inherit land in Vosne Romanee, you don't need a master s degree from Davis, but if you inherit a Pinot vineyard in Modesto...maybe you do!
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#120 Post by erikportanger » May 3rd, 2019, 11:14 pm

Personally, I think the La Las are pretty cheap. They are among the very best wines from one of the great wine regions of the world. They also have tiny production. This is the same recipe that has seen prices of top wines from Burgundy and Barolo hit the stratosphere.. I just think they are out of fashion right now, but as the price of wines of comparable quality in other regions keep going up, it's only a matter of time before the La Las get a second look..
As for the fact that they need 30 years to hit their peak, that hasn't stopped people buying Monfortino or Mugnier Musigny or any number of other famous wines..
Like others here, I've had some absolutely stunning older vintages of La Las that have convinced me that they deserve a place in any well stocked cellar, as long as you have patience. I also prefer the off vintages. They come around sooner and are cheap as chips.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#121 Post by Jürgen Steinke » May 4th, 2019, 12:24 am

When is the best time to drink La Tache or Mouton Rothschild, both wines raised in 100% new oak? About 30 years after the harvest if well stored. The La-La´s are not different. Mouton is often very oaky when young. I never hear complaints about the oak monster Mouton. Guigals La-La´s are different. Why? Because Guigal was a Parker favorite. Some of you should slowly but surely overcome the Parker allergy.

A recently drunk 1987 La Landonne – certainly not a superior vintage – was fine and no oak monster. I don't think that anybody would complain about excessive oak in this wine in a blind tasting.

Are the La-La´s worth the tarif? Thats an entire different question. IMO all the so called cult wines are way too expensive compared to other wines with outstanding quality. Its silly that a Mouton costs 4 or 5 times more than a Pichon Baron because the difference in quality is minimal if existent at all. And when bottle variation comes into play – which is normal after 20 years+ – things get even more absurd.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#122 Post by Gerhard P. » May 4th, 2019, 5:00 am

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 3:30 pm
Brian Thorne wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 2:04 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:37 am

Yep, if it taste more like oak than wine, I write it off as an oak monster.
I'm curious Josh, just how many mature La La's have you tasted?
The oldest I've had was a taste of a '99 La Landonne and that was probably five or more years ago--so maybe that wasn't aged enough for the oak to integrate? I've had many Guigal's, but only a few Lalas. I'm almost sure it's not for me--especially when there are so many other great Cote Roties out there that I want to try.
A 1999 Lala in 2014 was far from mature...
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#123 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 4th, 2019, 5:28 am

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 12:24 am
When is the best time to drink La Tache or Mouton Rothschild, both wines raised in 100% new oak? About 30 years after the harvest if well stored. The La-La´s are not different. Mouton is often very oaky when young. I never hear complaints about the oak monster Mouton. Guigals La-La´s are different. Why? Because Guigal was a Parker favorite. Some of you should slowly but surely overcome the Parker allergy.


Funny you should mention Mouton. In the late 1980s, the winemaker developed a taste for burnt barrels, and some of the wines tasted of coffee. The 1989 was especially weird

There are wines that can take 100% oak without harm, but Guigal’s lala is not one of them.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#124 Post by Greg K » May 4th, 2019, 5:57 am

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 12:24 am
When is the best time to drink La Tache or Mouton Rothschild, both wines raised in 100% new oak? About 30 years after the harvest if well stored. The La-La´s are not different. Mouton is often very oaky when young. I never hear complaints about the oak monster Mouton. Guigals La-La´s are different. Why? Because Guigal was a Parker favorite. Some of you should slowly but surely overcome the Parker allergy.

A recently drunk 1987 La Landonne – certainly not a superior vintage – was fine and no oak monster. I don't think that anybody would complain about excessive oak in this wine in a blind tasting.

Are the La-La´s worth the tarif? Thats an entire different question. IMO all the so called cult wines are way too expensive compared to other wines with outstanding quality. Its silly that a Mouton costs 4 or 5 times more than a Pichon Baron because the difference in quality is minimal if existent at all. And when bottle variation comes into play – which is normal after 20 years+ – things get even more absurd.
This assumes all grapes handle new oak equally well, which I do not think is true.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#125 Post by Gerhard P. » May 4th, 2019, 8:18 am

Jürgen Steinke wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 12:24 am
...

A recently drunk 1987 La Landonne – certainly not a superior vintage – was fine and no oak monster. I don't think that anybody would complain about excessive oak in this wine in a blind tasting.
....
That´s one of my favorites as well - and for at least 20 years ... at least 10 years ago no new oak detectable at all, one of the most characterful Cote-Roties produced ...
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#126 Post by Arv R » May 4th, 2019, 10:19 am

They're making a whole range of stuff beyond the tippy top Cote Rotie bottlings

We had a nice bottle of his Lieu Dit St Joe a while back

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=129299&p=2045412

Probably a little over priced if one is buying it off the shelf ($70ish at my LWS for current vintages) but still impressive to me.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#127 Post by Brian Thorne » May 4th, 2019, 11:20 am

Count me as a huge fan of Guigal La La’s! Personally I am glad that prices on the secondary market have been relatively flat over the last 8 - 10 years, as this has created some wonderful buying opportunities at auction. If I were trying to sell some, I might feel differently!

To the OP’s hypothesis, I think “losing” Parker as a vocal champion has contributed to this lull in the secondary market. Production quantities are so small, and when coupled with the number of fans, I don’t think the bottom will ever fall out for mature vintages.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#128 Post by AlexS » May 4th, 2019, 11:37 am

Slight thread drift but had the 2015 Guigal Crozes-Hermitage a few months ago...granted, Guigal's Crozes has never been amazing but it used to at least present an accurate representation of the appellation -- now? Complete spoof city, shockingly so. Given what others have said, I'll have to grab a recent vintage of the CdR but if it's anything like the 2015 Crozes, never again.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#129 Post by Arv R » May 4th, 2019, 11:58 am

I picked up some of that 15 Crozes, but have not tried it yet. Really liked his 03 Crozes, which drank well beyond a decade. It's probably time to test an 09
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#130 Post by AlexS » May 4th, 2019, 12:01 pm

Arv R wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 11:58 am
I picked up some of that 15 Crozes, but have not tried it yet. Really liked his 03 Crozes, which drank well beyond a decade. It's probably time to test an 09
2003 Crozes was one of the first case purchases I ever made, bought 2 in fact. Had my last one a few years ago, was still alive. Hopefully your experience with the 2015 is better than mine was.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#131 Post by Arv R » May 4th, 2019, 2:53 pm

I like my NoRho syrah with some age on it. I find when its young that I get this kind of vulcanized / tire shop smell. So I'll wait a couple of years.

Two cases is a lot though! Your money helped build this mansion of oak :)

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#132 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 4th, 2019, 4:29 pm

Brian Thorne wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 11:20 am
Count me as a huge fan of Guigal La La’s! Personally I am glad that prices on the secondary market have been relatively flat over the last 8 - 10 years, as this has created some wonderful buying opportunities at auction.
Exactly.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#133 Post by AlexS » May 4th, 2019, 5:08 pm

Arv R wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 2:53 pm
I like my NoRho syrah with some age on it. I find when its young that I get this kind of vulcanized / tire shop smell. So I'll wait a couple of years.

Two cases is a lot though! Your money helped build this mansion of oak :)

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Ha!

Pretty sure the 2003 was selling for something like $16-$17 back in those days, was a definite no-brainer for me at the time.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#134 Post by Josh Grossman » May 5th, 2019, 7:39 pm

R Greene wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 1:57 pm
As someone who has bought (and continues to buy) both older and newer LaLas, I find the premise to this thread questionable. There is no doubt that older LaLas have increased in price over the past few years. If you follow wine-searcher prices (and don't just look at the average), as I do, you will find that the majority of older LaLas like the 1989 Mouline are much more expensive these days. The 89 Turque was around $600 two years ago; the least expensive bottle on wine-searcher is now $899. Around the same time, 95 La Turque was around $350-400; it's now $600+. On the other hand, young LaLas have remained somewhat stable, with the exception of some newly released vintages like 2015. The reason for this? LaLas take 20 years to even begin starting their mature phase, so once they start to reach 20 years old, the prices increase. Auction prices have remained high as well. Every now and then, you'll see a LaLa as a passed lot, but not often. And if you're lucky to get a 98 Turque at a low price, as one commenter did, consider yourself lucky. That doesn't happen often in vintages like 1998. Finally, the older early and mid 80s LaLas are often well over $1,000 per bottle.

I think what's happened is that whereas wine drinkers were focusing on few Northern Rhone producers in the past, which included Guigal, now that has broadened. Other producers like Jamet are now hot, as evidenced in recent auctions. And I can understand that many people don't like the LaLas. They definitely have their own style that some people won't like. But I don't think there's been some universal epiphany that the LaLas are bad wines now that Parker has retired. There will always be trends that occur in the wine world, but I don't think the popularity of the LaLas (or most other Northern Rhone wines) will significantly change anytime soon. If it does, great! I would absolutely love the prices to come down.
https://www.winebid.com/BuyWine/Item/70 ... a-Landonne

This didn't sell in last weeks auction. No bids at $260:
https://www.winebid.com/BuyWine/Item/70 ... La-Mouline

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#135 Post by Otto Forsberg » May 6th, 2019, 4:31 am

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am
Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
+1

I can recognize and acknowledge that the wine might be of high quality, but with 95% probability it wouldn't be what I call "good" wine - i.e. something I'd fill my own cellar with.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#136 Post by Jeb Dunnuck » May 6th, 2019, 4:34 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 10:25 am
Jeb Dunnuck wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 5:34 am
R@y.Tupp@+sch wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:16 am


Older vintages of La Mouline and Brune et Blonde didn't see new oak. The earliest vintages, and in my opinion the greatest vintages of La Mouline were aged in foudres (assuming my memory is correct).
'66 was the first vintage for La Mouline... always in new barrels. Not sure about the Brune et Blonde.

Jeb, the first vintage of La Mouline is 1966. There was no new oak used. The first vintage to use 100% new oak is 1971.
Hi Ray and Jeff,
Confirmed from Guigal, every vintage since 1966 has spent 40 months in new oak.
Jeb
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#137 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » May 6th, 2019, 4:38 am

Otto Forsberg wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:31 am
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:34 am
Anything that spends 33 to 42 months in new oak isn't good wine in my book.
+1

I can recognize and acknowledge that the wine might be of high quality, but with 95% probability it wouldn't be what I call "good" wine - i.e. something I'd fill my own cellar with.
And that makes sense. Josh has been going quite a bit further than your position in a number of his posts.
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#138 Post by Howard Cooper » May 6th, 2019, 4:47 am

John Morris wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 12:48 pm
Josh Grossman wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 12:28 pm
Guigal makes 4,000,000 bottles of their CdR every year--and that is just one of their many bottlings. If you like 42 months of new oak from someone who makes millions of cases a year, by all means, give your money to Guigal. Just like McDonald's though, please don't think that they couldn't have 'billions served' on their sign. I am biased--but at some point, wine switches from being artisan to industrial, passion to commerce. Guigal and Chapoutier are the industrial négociants of the Rhone. I do my best not to support industrial wineries no matter how much lipstick they put on the pig: https://wineberserkers.com/forum/viewto ... 1&t=159758
I generally stay away from such producers, but Guigal's CdR has sustained high quality for a very long time. I preferred it when it had more grenache, but it's still good. I opened a bottle of the '03 a couple of weeks ago that I'd cellared since release, and even from that bizarre vintage, the wine was pleasing and showed some evolution. In better vintages, it can acquire some real complexity with 10-15 years of age.

I distinguish (a) producers like Guigal, Jaboulet, Antinori and the old-line Rioja producers who produce inexpensive wines on an industrial scale that are decent drinking even if they're not exciting from (b) Duboeuf, who uses yeasts to give that bubble gum aroma and whose single-vineyard can taste more like Bojo Nouveau than serious cru Beaujolais.

Producing large quantities of cheap wine doesn't necessarily mean you can't make great wines. I think Guigal and Jaboulet on their good days show that, and certainly Rioja producers like CVNE and La Rioja Alta do.
I am not a Rhone drinker, so I don't buy these wines. But, I think it is great that someone is making millions of bottles of relatively inexpensive CdR of good quality for people to purchase who like wine but don't know that much about it. I am agnostic about the size of wineries. I buy wines from many very, very small wineries and also like wines from wineries like Ridge, Jadot, Bouchard and Drouhin. I think anyone who views wineries just by size is missing out on a lot of good wines and some excellent values. Ridge Montebello, for example, is a very high quality wine that, while not cheap is a bargain relative to many California wines of comparable quality. I cannot think of too many white Burgundies these days that are as good a value as Bouchard's Meursault Perrieres. And, I could go on and on.
Howard

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#139 Post by Howard Cooper » May 6th, 2019, 4:57 am

Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:15 pm
Greg K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:35 am


That is how you judge a wine?
If he doesn't like oak in his wine, why would he like a wine that spends 3 years in new oak? [scratch.gif]

I also don't like oak, which is a reason I don't particularly like Guigal's wines.
I do not taste wine by the numbers. I taste wine by what is in the glass. I also do not want to drink an oaky wine. But to state any wine that spends X amount of time in oak to not be good, is silly. To taste a wine, and state it is oaky and that you do not like it, that is completely understandable.

FWIW, on maturity, I do not find Guigal to be oaky. But that's just me.
I actually agree with Jeff. For example, my favorite producer, Jacky Truchot, generally used very little if any new oak on most of his wines. However, he needed some new barrels each year and put his Charmes Chambertin in them. I can remember drinking wines from say 1999-2005 when they were very young where the Charmes Chambertin stuck out like a sore thumb as not being Truchot-like because of the new oak. But, now, drinking the same wines at 15-20 years old, the Charmes Chambertins taste just as much like a Truchot wine and you cannot pick out the wine from others of his wines based on the oak. A lot of this is based on how talented the producer is in his use of oak; how much toast, etc., the barrels have; the age of the wines when one drinks them; etc., etc., etc.

I think the biggest issue with new oak is that it makes it more difficult to evaluate a young wine. It is hard to see the flaws in a new wine when it is smothered with lots of oak flavors. As the flavoring of the oak recedes over time, you don't really know whether there is good fruit, etc., under the oak. Sometimes there is, sometimes there is not. The only thing I really have to go on in such situations is track record, so I am very conservative in buying wines with lots of new oak that are meant to age unless I have had mature versions of the same wine.
Howard

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#140 Post by Howard Cooper » May 6th, 2019, 5:01 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 5:28 am
Jürgen Steinke wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 12:24 am
When is the best time to drink La Tache or Mouton Rothschild, both wines raised in 100% new oak? About 30 years after the harvest if well stored. The La-La´s are not different. Mouton is often very oaky when young. I never hear complaints about the oak monster Mouton. Guigals La-La´s are different. Why? Because Guigal was a Parker favorite. Some of you should slowly but surely overcome the Parker allergy.


Funny you should mention Mouton. In the late 1980s, the winemaker developed a taste for burnt barrels, and some of the wines tasted of coffee. The 1989 was especially weird

There are wines that can take 100% oak without harm, but Guigal’s lala is not one of them.
Josh apparently would not drink Mouton anyway because it is a big company that makes many, many bottles of Mouton Cadet. So, write off Mouton.
Howard

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#141 Post by Howard Cooper » May 6th, 2019, 5:04 am

Brian Thorne wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 11:20 am
Count me as a huge fan of Guigal La La’s! Personally I am glad that prices on the secondary market have been relatively flat over the last 8 - 10 years, as this has created some wonderful buying opportunities at auction.
I think this is a great point that is lost in this discussion. For those of us who are wine drinkers and not wine investors, it is much, much better that our favorite wines lose their luster and that prices for these wines become flat or go down in value. I wish that would happen with a lot of my favorite Burgundies.
Howard

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#142 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 6th, 2019, 6:09 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 5:04 am
Brian Thorne wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 11:20 am
Count me as a huge fan of Guigal La La’s! Personally I am glad that prices on the secondary market have been relatively flat over the last 8 - 10 years, as this has created some wonderful buying opportunities at auction.
I think this is a great point that is lost in this discussion. For those of us who are wine drinkers and not wine investors, it is much, much better that our favorite wines lose their luster and that prices for these wines become flat or go down in value. I wish that would happen with a lot of my favorite Burgundies.

I am pretty sure the really top Burgundies are in a serious bubble. And frankly, my income does not support me drinking $3k bottles, and there are a limited number of people who can. And more importantly, I am pretty sure there is a fair amount of speculation that is behind a good percentage of the increase.

To me that is an opportunity to sell Rousseau Chambertin 1999 and buy a case of Rossignol CDB for the same.
ITB

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#143 Post by Howard Cooper » May 6th, 2019, 6:13 am

Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 6:09 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 5:04 am
Brian Thorne wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 11:20 am
Count me as a huge fan of Guigal La La’s! Personally I am glad that prices on the secondary market have been relatively flat over the last 8 - 10 years, as this has created some wonderful buying opportunities at auction.
I think this is a great point that is lost in this discussion. For those of us who are wine drinkers and not wine investors, it is much, much better that our favorite wines lose their luster and that prices for these wines become flat or go down in value. I wish that would happen with a lot of my favorite Burgundies.

I am pretty sure the really top Burgundies are in a serious bubble. And frankly, my income does not support me drinking $3k bottles, and there are a limited number of people who can. And more importantly, I am pretty sure there is a fair amount of speculation that is behind a good percentage of the increase.

To me that is an opportunity to sell Rousseau Chambertin 1999 and buy a case of Rossignol CDB for the same.
Too bad I don't have any Rousseau.
Howard

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#144 Post by Mark Golodetz » May 6th, 2019, 6:21 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 6:13 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 6:09 am
Howard Cooper wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 5:04 am


I think this is a great point that is lost in this discussion. For those of us who are wine drinkers and not wine investors, it is much, much better that our favorite wines lose their luster and that prices for these wines become flat or go down in value. I wish that would happen with a lot of my favorite Burgundies.

I am pretty sure the really top Burgundies are in a serious bubble. And frankly, my income does not support me drinking $3k bottles, and there are a limited number of people who can. And more importantly, I am pretty sure there is a fair amount of speculation that is behind a good percentage of the increase.

To me that is an opportunity to sell Rousseau Chambertin 1999 and buy a case of Rossignol CDB for the same.
Too bad I don't have any Rousseau.
I seem to remember you have Truchot
ITB

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#145 Post by Greg K » May 6th, 2019, 9:00 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:57 am
Jeff Leve wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 12:15 pm
Greg K wrote:
May 3rd, 2019, 11:40 am


If he doesn't like oak in his wine, why would he like a wine that spends 3 years in new oak? [scratch.gif]

I also don't like oak, which is a reason I don't particularly like Guigal's wines.
I do not taste wine by the numbers. I taste wine by what is in the glass. I also do not want to drink an oaky wine. But to state any wine that spends X amount of time in oak to not be good, is silly. To taste a wine, and state it is oaky and that you do not like it, that is completely understandable.

FWIW, on maturity, I do not find Guigal to be oaky. But that's just me.
I actually agree with Jeff. For example, my favorite producer, Jacky Truchot, generally used very little if any new oak on most of his wines. However, he needed some new barrels each year and put his Charmes Chambertin in them. I can remember drinking wines from say 1999-2005 when they were very young where the Charmes Chambertin stuck out like a sore thumb as not being Truchot-like because of the new oak. But, now, drinking the same wines at 15-20 years old, the Charmes Chambertins taste just as much like a Truchot wine and you cannot pick out the wine from others of his wines based on the oak. A lot of this is based on how talented the producer is in his use of oak; how much toast, etc., the barrels have; the age of the wines when one drinks them; etc., etc., etc.

I think the biggest issue with new oak is that it makes it more difficult to evaluate a young wine. It is hard to see the flaws in a new wine when it is smothered with lots of oak flavors. As the flavoring of the oak recedes over time, you don't really know whether there is good fruit, etc., under the oak. Sometimes there is, sometimes there is not. The only thing I really have to go on in such situations is track record, so I am very conservative in buying wines with lots of new oak that are meant to age unless I have had mature versions of the same wine.
I don't think these things are entirely equal though - in my opinion (and it is an opinion), grand cru burgundy can handle new oak better than northern Rhone syrah. For example, I like Dominque Laurent's wines with age on them (they're also great bargains), even though they have quite a bit of new oak. I don't have the same experience with, say, older Ogier Cote Rotie.
Greg Kahn

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#146 Post by Charlie Carnes » May 6th, 2019, 11:58 am

K John Joseph wrote:
May 1st, 2019, 11:08 am
...that it overshot consumer preferences by about 3 or 4 standard deviations of bigness. I'm hoping there is an aggressive style correction over the next decade because really spot on clean CDP can be absolutely lovely.
That's pretty well said!
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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#147 Post by R@y.Tupp@+sch » May 6th, 2019, 12:10 pm

Jeb Dunnuck wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 4:34 am

Hi Ray and Jeff,
Confirmed from Guigal, every vintage since 1966 has spent 40 months in new oak.
Jeb

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#148 Post by Rob_S » May 6th, 2019, 12:46 pm

Greg K wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:31 am
C. Mc Cart wrote:
May 2nd, 2019, 11:23 am
Per the OP, you could say the same of Chapoutier these days, non?
I almost posted earlier that at least Guigal isn't Chapoutier [snort.gif]

Guigal wines are definitely not my style, whereas I think Chapoutier wines are just not good.
Red's, White's or all? I think Chapoutier makes a good white wine and I've had fantastic examples of Chante-Alouette, Le Méal and De L'Orée.
utherland

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#149 Post by Josh Grossman » May 6th, 2019, 1:45 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 5:01 am
Mark Golodetz wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 5:28 am
Jürgen Steinke wrote:
May 4th, 2019, 12:24 am
When is the best time to drink La Tache or Mouton Rothschild, both wines raised in 100% new oak? About 30 years after the harvest if well stored. The La-La´s are not different. Mouton is often very oaky when young. I never hear complaints about the oak monster Mouton. Guigals La-La´s are different. Why? Because Guigal was a Parker favorite. Some of you should slowly but surely overcome the Parker allergy.


Funny you should mention Mouton. In the late 1980s, the winemaker developed a taste for burnt barrels, and some of the wines tasted of coffee. The 1989 was especially weird

There are wines that can take 100% oak without harm, but Guigal’s lala is not one of them.
Josh apparently would not drink Mouton anyway because it is a big company that makes many, many bottles of Mouton Cadet. So, write off Mouton.
It's really the avarice and conspicuous consumption (and new oak) that I hate. Size is just an indicator of that motivation.

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Re: Is Guigal a casualty of Parker’s retirement

#150 Post by Jeff Leve » May 6th, 2019, 2:06 pm

Josh Grossman wrote:
May 6th, 2019, 1:45 pm

It's really the avarice and conspicuous consumption ...that I hate. Size is just an indicator of that motivation.
Can you explain this, please? I do not understand your point.

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