Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

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John J
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#101 Post by John J » November 10th, 2018, 11:32 am

A lot of great advice in this thread. A great place for a beginning burgundy drinker is exploring through producers bourgognes. It gives at times an intro to a house style and (depending on a producers holdings) they can give insight into big picture differences in Côte de Nuits vs Côte de Beaune reds .

Plus a Burgundy drinker that doesn’t drink bourgogne isn’t a burgundy drinker. It can be the gem of a producers lineup some vintages. To quote Becky Wasserman , ‘[There are instances] i’d rather drink a producer’s old vine Bourgogne than a Grand Cru on its first leaf’
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#102 Post by Sebastian C. » November 10th, 2018, 1:14 pm

Jon Johnson wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 11:32 am
A lot of great advice in this thread. A great place for a beginning burgundy drinker is exploring through producers bourgognes. It gives at times an intro to a house style and (depending on a producers holdings) they can give insight into big picture differences in Côte de Nuits vs Côte de Beaune reds .

Plus a Burgundy drinker that doesn’t drink bourgogne isn’t a burgundy drinker. It can be the gem of a producers lineup some vintages. To quote Becky Wasserman , ‘[There are instances] i’d rather drink a producer’s old vine Bourgogne than a Grand Cru on its first leaf’
Put me then in a camp of not being a burgundy drinker. I find pretty much all borgougne pretty mediocre. I think that pushing a novice into bourgogne is pushing him away from burgundy. Just my opinion based on my preferences.
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#103 Post by Dan Kravitz » November 10th, 2018, 5:04 pm

I've only just had a chance to skim this thread, but will give my opinion, as a lover of Burgundy on a budget, but with long albeit less deep experience than I would want. The few I represent will not be mentioned.

Buying in good and mid-level vintages, and avoiding lesser vintage is IMO excellent advice. Lesser vintages are fewer because the world is warmer, but there will probably always be 2 - 3 vintage a decade that you simply want to skip (this applies more to red than to white).

If you can afford only a few bottles from producers like Roumier, Rousseau, Roulot, Raveneau, buy in very good to great vintages, their top sites or as close as you can get. In lesser vintages, the names still command top dollar but they will never be great wines. The Clerk of the Weather always has the final word.

Drink everything from Bourgognes through Grand Crus. Also explore far more widely for producers. You list: "Jadot, Faiveley, Bouchard, Drouhin, Fevre, Chevillon, Gouges". How about (just one per broad district, south to north) Talmard, Sounit, Belland, Pousse d'Or, de Courcel, Besancenot, Rapet. I'm not even getting into the Cote de Nuits, home to the greatest wines, worst values and most inconsistent wines of Burgundy.

The best values are in the lesser-known towns (duhh), especially, IMO (again, south to north), Rully, Mercurey, Santenay, Monthelie, Savigny and Pernand. The greatest wines for the least money, again IMO, are from the best ageworthy producers from the best towns in the Cote de Beaune: Volnay from Pousse d'Or and Marquis d'Angerville; Pommard from de Courcel and Comte Armand; Beaune from Besancenot, Morot and (you won't find them here) Lycee Viticole.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#104 Post by Howard Cooper » November 10th, 2018, 7:44 pm

Jon Johnson wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 11:32 am
A lot of great advice in this thread. A great place for a beginning burgundy drinker is exploring through producers bourgognes. It gives at times an intro to a house style and (depending on a producers holdings) they can give insight into big picture differences in Côte de Nuits vs Côte de Beaune reds .

Plus a Burgundy drinker that doesn’t drink bourgogne isn’t a burgundy drinker. It can be the gem of a producers lineup some vintages. To quote Becky Wasserman , ‘[There are instances] i’d rather drink a producer’s old vine Bourgogne than a Grand Cru on its first leaf’
I agree. Of interest, when I visited at Bernard Moreau this summer, the one comment I made to Alex Moreau that really elicited a positive reaction from him was how much I like his Bourgogne Blanc. And, anyone who says they don’t like Bourgogne Rouge has not tasted the one from Hudelot Noellat or the Chorey les Beaune from Dublere.
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#105 Post by J0hn $mith » November 10th, 2018, 8:27 pm

Jon Johnson wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 11:32 am
To quote Becky Wasserman , ‘[There are instances] i’d rather drink a producer’s old vine Bourgogne than a Grand Cru on its first leaf’
Dear lord, she is an importer. She needs to sell wine, if its a grand cru, the wine sells itself. But bourgogne needs marketing to sell, especially when it costs upwards of 30 bl$$%y dollars!

I hear the reason for old wines...but bourgogne is still a bourgogne and at the prices they retail...Merci beaucoup!

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#106 Post by J0hn $mith » November 10th, 2018, 8:41 pm

Sebastian C. wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 1:14 pm
Jon Johnson wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 11:32 am
A lot of great advice in this thread. A great place for a beginning burgundy drinker is exploring through producers bourgognes. It gives at times an intro to a house style and (depending on a producers holdings) they can give insight into big picture differences in Côte de Nuits vs Côte de Beaune reds .

Plus a Burgundy drinker that doesn’t drink bourgogne isn’t a burgundy drinker. It can be the gem of a producers lineup some vintages. To quote Becky Wasserman , ‘[There are instances] i’d rather drink a producer’s old vine Bourgogne than a Grand Cru on its first leaf’
Put me then in a camp of not being a burgundy drinker. I find pretty much all borgougne pretty mediocre. I think that pushing a novice into bourgogne is pushing him away from burgundy. Just my opinion based on my preferences.
Well said. Thats why its a bourgogne and not a grand cru or a premier cru!

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#107 Post by John J » November 11th, 2018, 7:25 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 7:44 pm
Jon Johnson wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 11:32 am
A lot of great advice in this thread. A great place for a beginning burgundy drinker is exploring through producers bourgognes. It gives at times an intro to a house style and (depending on a producers holdings) they can give insight into big picture differences in Côte de Nuits vs Côte de Beaune reds .

Plus a Burgundy drinker that doesn’t drink bourgogne isn’t a burgundy drinker. It can be the gem of a producers lineup some vintages. To quote Becky Wasserman , ‘[There are instances] i’d rather drink a producer’s old vine Bourgogne than a Grand Cru on its first leaf’
I agree. Of interest, when I visited at Bernard Moreau this summer, the one comment I made to Alex Moreau that really elicited a positive reaction from him was how much I like his Bourgogne Blanc. And, anyone who says they don’t like Bourgogne Rouge has not tasted the one from Hudelot Noellat or the Chorey les Beaune from Dublere.
Hudelot is a perfect example. I am a fan of their entire line up. Their Bourgogne is sourced from parcels around Chambolle and its delicious. Charles Van Canneyt does an incredible job with their Bourgogne year in and out. Their Bourgogne rouge is a pretty good representation of the Hudelot house style. Also a fan of the Dublere.
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#108 Post by Robert Pavlovich » November 11th, 2018, 11:29 am

Had a long post lost in the ether, so will work on brevity.

Experience is the best teacher, and though it can be key to be pointed in the right direction, don't subscribe to any one source exclusively, as your goal should be finding your own command of Burgundy and your own tastes, which are normally a moving target in the first years.

Points and reviews are often political due to access, biases, group think, and other factors. If you find a great wine that isn't supposed be great, that's a big victory, and you might be the only person willing to say so.

Cheap Burgundy (Bourgogne, Village, Over-looked 1ers) can be special and is often killer qpr for drinking enjoyment. There's a lot of fashion, pageantry, and FOMO driving up prices of the in-producers. You just have to find your mix of how much you want to participate in it. I dabble in what I feel I can afford, and try to buy multiples of wines I'm really bullish on, ditto for vintages.

Vintages. Obviously taste and read as much as you can. Except in vintages such as 2004 or 2011, where the reds might be giving you too much negative feedback. Though Grand Cru's in weaker or cool/classic years are often great and had at a discount, where cheaper Burgs in warm/hot years tend to overperform, and those expensive GC's may not be as good as they were in a classic year. Also any given vintage, a producer or single wine may be awesome. Buying the same wines religiously appeals to some, but I don't feel the need to do this. Generational hand offs and young vignerons are developing mastery all the time. I like coming up with a new game plan every vintage based on what I've learned from the year before.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#109 Post by joz€f p1nxten » November 11th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 5:04 pm

The greatest wines for the least money, again IMO, are from the best ageworthy producers from the best towns in the Cote de Beaune: Volnay from Pousse d'Or and Marquis d'Angerville; Pommard from de Courcel and Comte Armand; Beaune from Besancenot, Morot and (you won't find them here) Lycee Viticole.

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Interesting you mention the Lycee Viticole - I believe their current winemaker, who I met in Italy last year, trained with Mugnier, before switching to this domaine - a young guy, I believe around 25y. He told me he is in full control. They have a big portfolio of Beaune wines. The domaine is linked to the local high school. I was planning to visit in the future to see what he is up to.
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#110 Post by Dan Kravitz » November 11th, 2018, 4:19 pm

I brought some wines well over a decade ago. They were very good or better, but an incredibly hard sell. I may visit again next month. They have always had cooperation from the biggest and best Domaines as this is the training ground for a large number of the necessary 'cellar rats' in the Cote de Beaune. When I bought the wines, they were ~20% cheaper than average and well above average in quality. I won't write any more, as I don't want to wake up any other importers, but am looking forward to a visit.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#111 Post by Shay h arnoy » November 7th, 2019, 3:51 pm

Tom Reddick wrote:
October 18th, 2018, 9:49 pm
Maxwell A. wrote:
October 15th, 2018, 11:51 pm
I've been fortunate to taste a lot of Burgundy already, including some of the big names: DRC, Roumier, Dujac, Leflaive, Raveneau etc. As I have begun to buy wine to cellar over the last few years, I've done my best to snag bottles from the most lauded producers while also including those more affordable: Jadot, Faiveley, Bouchard, Drouhin, Fevre, Chevillon, Gouges etc.
Good evening,

Great questions and great thread. I have waited to reply so I could think on your post because the very real, and unfortunate, fact is that the way I- and many seasoned tasters on this board- learned burgundy is virtually impossible today unless you truly have an unlimited budget. My approach- and the best starting point- is taste, taste, taste. And I tasted everything at release when I got started- including wines like La Tache and Roumier Musigny. They were available and affordable back then. Not so today.

However, even that approach is not infallible because at that early stage you do not know how the wines are going to mature, nor indeed do most people really have a sense of how often and in what setting they will be drinking their burgundies. These latter two points are as important to your buying decisions as your stylistic preferences. Setting is particularly important because 20 years ago when I got started, wine was not the popular thing it is now. You did not buy bottles for tastings or tasting events- but for the dinner table. It is no mistake that many of the more "modern", as they are called, wines are better suited to group blind tastings than as an accompaniment to a meal.

That said, here is what I would do in the current environment- and note that many of these suggestions would have been good ones 20 years ago too,

1. Pick a vintage that is new, still generally available, showing well young and is of good quality- 2014 and 2015 are both excellent choices- and taste a sample of at least 12 wines from that vintage, each from a different producer. Here are some producers I would suggest you include in that mix, covering the whole spectrum of very traditional to very modern and also a nice range of styles. There are other possibilities, but this the list I propose based on my own experience. And BTW- you can choose the Bourgognes or the village level wines- in fact you should where possible. This first exercise is about producer approach more than anything else,

Grivot
Hudelot-Noellat
Roumier (only if your eventual budget will allow $500+ per bottle on the premier and grand crus)
Fourrier
Dugat
Drouhin
Angerville
Sauzet (stunning Bourgogne blanc- along with Leroy, one you can cellar for several years and see some great things develop)
Jadot
Meo-Camuzet
Bouchard
Faiveley
Ramonet
Henri Boillot
Parent
Liger-Belair
Dujac
PYCM
Niellon
Pernot

The above exercise will give you a good sense of what general styles you might like over time. I have omitted a number of good options where even the entry level wines are today incredibly expensive or hard to obtain.

2. Consider your potential sources for the wines- including checking your local market very carefully.

Once you have an idea what producers you generally like, consider where you plan to buy most of your wines. And look very closely at local options. With the burgundy markets so heated, many small merchants with good burgundy connections keep that very quiet with the best wines never going on the shelf- but rather straight into the hands of local customers. This is usually where you get the best prices and the best assurances of getting the wines every year. But the caveat is no cherry picking. Generally speaking, those who skip vintages go to the back of the line.

Compare those options with what you like, as well as what you want to spend, and then you can pretty quickly figure out your sweet spot producers- meaning those who make wines you like, wines in your price range, and wines you can obtain easily on an ongoing basis. There is enough great burgundy in the world that even in these crazy times this approach can form the backbone of a great burgundy cellar at the lowest cost without you constantly chasing around in the secondary market looking for bottles.

These people who "go deep" on the big vintages and ignore the rest are never going to really understand or appreciate Burgundy at all, quite frankly. And they pay a huge price to cherry pick because you have to be a secondary market buyer in order to only purchase the best- unless you are part of a rare crowd that gets huge local allocations annually and can then flip the "off vintages" (usually at a loss though- because in the current secondary market the top vintages are marked up excessively and "lesser years" are sold at or near cost.)

There are good uses for most vintages. The 1992s were lovely young and middle-aged as luncheon wines. 1994s are just now starting to unfurl and will be suitable for gamey dishes or cheese platters. In the past 30 years the only vintage I have truly disliked is 1997- but even there I have found many positive upside surprises with time. Burgundy does not have to be a dominating force in your life, but if it is an important part at the dinner table- even if only rarely- just about every vintage has a worthwhile purpose.

3. Stay the hell away from 2005.

Great vintage? Yes. But as much a creature of vintage as terroir. The wines will be incredible- in 30+ years. But they are of a volume and scale that- like 2000 Bordeaux- is unprecedented in our lifetime. One reason so many non-burgundy drinkers like 2005 is that the vintage is so very un-burgundy in its power and size. Worth cellaring some once you know what producers you favor, but these are extremely expensive wines and not good representative examples on which to make significant buying decisions about other vintages. Better to cut your teeth on what is normal and then later buy a few of these as special bottles if you are so inclined.

4. Vineyards

Once you have gone through 1 and 2, the next step I would recommend is to consider some of the major appellations and buy a few older bottles. This is where you are going to start spending some serious money, but it is critical to see wines that are maturing or at maturity when their true characters begin to emerge.

Good vintage choices in the current marketplace are 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2006, 2008 and 2009. These are not necessarily mature, but approachable to some degree in many cases (there is no way to give a perfect list where anything you get will show well), plus I have also put some emphasis on vintages that are not as expensive as years like 1999 or 2005.

Also, here I would stick with premier cru and above. You want to see wines of particular site distinction. The goal here is the same as in 1- to get a sense of what you really like at the present time so you can focus there. Some suggested wines to consider,

Jadot Gevrey-Chambertin Clos St. Jacques
Grivot Vosne-Romanee Beauxmonts
Roumier Chambolle Musigny AC or 1er cru Le Cras
Jadot Vosne-Romanee Suchots or Beauxmonts, Pommard Rugiens, Chambolle Les Fuees
Angerville Volnay Champans
Parent Cortons and Pommards
Ramonet Chassagne Morgeot and Caillerets- Ruchottes too, but that one shuts down hard so you need one 10+ yrs old and that is pricey
Niellon Chassagne Vergers
Meo-Camuzet Nuits St. Georges Boudots or Murgers- latter shuts down pretty hard, so avoid recent vintages unless young enough for exercise 1 above
Fourrier- just about anything
Dujac- Chambolle or Morey St. Denis
Drouhin- just about anything except Musigny or Bonnes-Mares which shut down hard

5. Going to back to the piece of your original post I quoted above.

Who is famous in burgundy is driven by a lot of factors that will not necessarily match up with your personal reality and what you like. Leroy's fame in the US is due in large part to the heaps of praise from Robert Parker and Matt Kramer, and also a little contest based out of Texas a good 30 years ago when two collectors wanted to see who could buy the most Leroy. Granted her prices would have eventually gotten where they are now, but that latter phenomenon contributed to the demand and price levels at the time which set the stage for present day fame.

I am with Howard on Leroy. When they are on- and fully mature- they are incredible, but I also find them to have a very heavy signature. You can easily spot them with some tasting experience. And because they are made to take so long to mature, you have a greater risk. The reward is greater too when things go well, but a lot can happen to a wine in 30+ years and I have seen my share of Leroy wines going out of balance or becoming excessively hard with age.

On the other hand, "those more affordable" as you call them (and as many of us would call them- it is a fair comment), also have their high points. In fact, a few of the Domaines on your more affordable list with which I am most familiar happen to make- in my opinion- either the greatest wine or one of the 2-3 greatest wines in a well known vineyard. That list includes,

Drouhin Griotte-Chambertin (one of the greatest wines in Burgundy)
Drouhin Beaune Clos des Mouches (blanc and rouge)
Drouhin Vosne-Romanee Petit Monts
Drouhin Bonnes-Mares
Bouchard Beaune-Greves Vigne de L'Enfant Jesus
Jadot Clos St. Denis
Jadot Chambolle Amoureuses
Jadot Chevalier-Montrachet Les Demoiselles
Drouhin Batard-Montrachet
Faiveley Gevrey-Chambertin Les Cazetiers
Faiveley Chambolle-Musigny Les Fuees

Many label chasers would sneer at the selections above- but they happen to be incredible wines. I know you were not sneering when you wrote your post- I am just pointing out that even in today's market there are a number of first class wines that are largely ignored by the buyers who are driving prices ever higher.

Recent market trends are increasingly irrational to many of us who have followed this region for a long time. So many things that are so much more expensive than makes sense. But the good news is that irrationality cuts both ways- and even today there are bargains out there.

That was long, and more could be said. Hope this is helpful to you.
OMG. This post is gold. Thank you.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#112 Post by Lorenzo F » November 9th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Hi guys first post here . Nice to meet you all .
What do you guys think of the argument someone makes : burgundy is too expensive I drink barolo and barbaresco instead ??
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#113 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » November 9th, 2019, 2:30 pm

Not sure that’s a lot more cost effective. 95% of the wine I drink is burg or champagne and champagne is certainly more expensive per bottle than the burg.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#114 Post by Marcu$ Stanley » November 9th, 2019, 4:41 pm

Lorenzo F wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 2:17 pm
Hi guys first post here . Nice to meet you all .
What do you guys think of the argument someone makes : burgundy is too expensive I drink barolo and barbaresco instead ??
Fine, but Barbaresco is a totally different wine than Burgundy. Just because wines are light bodied or high acidity doesn’t make them similar. You might as well say Burgundy is too expensive I drink Oregon Pinot instead, in fact that would make more sense to me as Oregon Pinot is probably more similar to Burgundy (while still being very different) than Barbaresco is

As for Barolo, same argument applies, and I’m not even sure it’s cheaper

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#115 Post by Dan Kravitz » November 9th, 2019, 5:16 pm

Michael,

Unless you're drinking only Tete de Cuvee Champagnes, you're drinking cheap Burgundy [wink.gif]

Agreed with Marcus that Piedmont and Burgundy are different wines... even apples and oranges different. However I can see them serving similar roles at the table. I would hate to give up either category, but I don't have to!

I have a reasonable amount of experience with Burgundy, been drinking the stuff for almost 50 years, but only as part of a very broad mix of wines. I have my preferences and I have my strategies. They are not always the same.

The things I write below apply to me alone, not anybody else.

The very greatest red Burgundy comes from the Cote de Nuits, but I am no longer willing to pay the price for the very greatest bottles and below that level the Cote de Beaune offers far better values.

The best values for very fine Burgundy are the best 1er Crus of the Cote de Beaune. Among my favorites (listing vineyards, not producers, although you can probably infer producers; in some cases they are Monopoles, or close):
Pernand Ile de Vergelesses
Savigny Vergelesses
Savigny Serpentieres
Beaune Clos des Ursules
Beaune Greves
Beaune Greves Vignes de l'Enfant Jesus
Beaune Avaux
Beaune Clos des Mouches
Pommard Epenots
Pommard Epeneaux
Pommard Rugiens
Volnay Clos des Ducs
Volnay Caillerets
Volnay Caillerets Clos de 60 Ouvrees
Volnay Clos des Chenes
Volnay Santenots
Chassagne Clos St Jean
Santenay Clos des Tavannes
Santenay Clos Rousseau
Santenay Gravieres

I prefer to buy these wines from the best producers in ripe vintages. I recognize that many of these wines may prove out in less ripe vintages, but also think that those vintages will require even longer ageing. Please see below.

Many wine writers state that these wines should be drunk at relatively young ages. However I normally find them at their best from 10 - 20 years of age. In less ripe years, add at least 5, maybe 10 years.

If any readers disagree with any of my statements or recommendations, I cheerfully agree that your mileage may well vary and also cheerfully request that you shut your foul yap(s). Or if you are compelled to comment, please gently point out my admissions and/or mistakes, while cheerfully admitting that you too might be mistaken.

Beset regards to all,

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#116 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » November 9th, 2019, 5:20 pm

The last 2 cases of champagne were >300/btl; 08 dom mags, 09 cristal mags, 164 mags, 08 cristal and 08 dom. Champs are probably 75% grand marque and 25% grower, mostly vilmart, marguet, legras, and diebolt vallois. Burgs probably more like 100-200/btl although the DRC I bought lately will increase the avg.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#117 Post by Dan Kravitz » November 9th, 2019, 5:51 pm

Michael,

[notworthy.gif]

You are drinking really really good Champagne!!!

And if you just bought some DRC, obviously your average Burg price will blow by your average Champagne price, effective immediately.

Enjoy.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#118 Post by Alan Rath » November 9th, 2019, 6:31 pm

Robert Grenley wrote:
November 10th, 2018, 8:53 am
And more times than not you will find that the wine you overspent for was really excellent but not necessarily worth $500 or $800 or $1500 or whatever you spent on it.
Let’s make that every single time [wow.gif]

There are too many excellent wines for a LOT less than that. But that won’t stop people from trying I guess.
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#119 Post by Shay h arnoy » November 9th, 2019, 6:59 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 5:16 pm
Michael,

Unless you're drinking only Tete de Cuvee Champagnes, you're drinking cheap Burgundy [wink.gif]

Agreed with Marcus that Piedmont and Burgundy are different wines... even apples and oranges different. However I can see them serving similar roles at the table. I would hate to give up either category, but I don't have to!

I have a reasonable amount of experience with Burgundy, been drinking the stuff for almost 50 years, but only as part of a very broad mix of wines. I have my preferences and I have my strategies. They are not always the same.

The things I write below apply to me alone, not anybody else.

The very greatest red Burgundy comes from the Cote de Nuits, but I am no longer willing to pay the price for the very greatest bottles and below that level the Cote de Beaune offers far better values.

The best values for very fine Burgundy are the best 1er Crus of the Cote de Beaune. Among my favorites (listing vineyards, not producers, although you can probably infer producers; in some cases they are Monopoles, or close):
Pernand Ile de Vergelesses
Savigny Vergelesses
Savigny Serpentieres
Beaune Clos des Ursules
Beaune Greves
Beaune Greves Vignes de l'Enfant Jesus
Beaune Avaux
Beaune Clos des Mouches
Pommard Epenots
Pommard Epeneaux
Pommard Rugiens
Volnay Clos des Ducs
Volnay Caillerets
Volnay Caillerets Clos de 60 Ouvrees
Volnay Clos des Chenes
Volnay Santenots
Chassagne Clos St Jean
Santenay Clos des Tavannes
Santenay Clos Rousseau
Santenay Gravieres

I prefer to buy these wines from the best producers in ripe vintages. I recognize that many of these wines may prove out in less ripe vintages, but also think that those vintages will require even longer ageing. Please see below.

Many wine writers state that these wines should be drunk at relatively young ages. However I normally find them at their best from 10 - 20 years of age. In less ripe years, add at least 5, maybe 10 years.

If any readers disagree with any of my statements or recommendations, I cheerfully agree that your mileage may well vary and also cheerfully request that you shut your foul yap(s). Or if you are compelled to comment, please gently point out my admissions and/or mistakes, while cheerfully admitting that you too might be mistaken.

Beset regards to all,

Dan Kravitz
Thanks for the post! I find posts that list specific names very helpful. If these are your favorite vineyards, can you give us a sense of what you look for in a burgundy? What is your favorite style?

Also, do you have some favorite producers or are you not too particular?

As for me, I am just getting started. To explore producers and to have a side by side on two different villages side by side I just picked up:
2015 Antonin Guyon Chambolle-Musigny Villages Les Cras
2015 Jadot Chambolle-Musigny
2015 Faiveley Chambolle-Musigny
2015 Drouhin Chambolle-Musigny
2015 Drouhin Aloxe Corton

Open to feedback/criticism/guidance!

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#120 Post by Lorenzo F » November 10th, 2019, 4:56 am

Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 4:41 pm
Lorenzo F wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 2:17 pm
Hi guys first post here . Nice to meet you all .
What do you guys think of the argument someone makes : burgundy is too expensive I drink barolo and barbaresco instead ??
Fine, but Barbaresco is a totally different wine than Burgundy. Just because wines are light bodied or high acidity doesn’t make them similar. You might as well say Burgundy is too expensive I drink Oregon Pinot instead, in fact that would make more sense to me as Oregon Pinot is probably more similar to Burgundy (while still being very different) than Barbaresco is

As for Barolo, same argument applies, and I’m not even sure it’s cheaper
Agreed , but we can't deny there are similarities. And price wise, what can you buy in burgundy for 50/60usd ? As for the top of the range stuff pie' Franco , ca' di morisso, ester canale,bartolo mascarello are a fraction of the price of top burgundy .
Fioravanti

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#121 Post by David Glasser » November 10th, 2019, 7:05 am

Lorenzo F wrote:
November 10th, 2019, 4:56 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 4:41 pm
Lorenzo F wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 2:17 pm
Hi guys first post here . Nice to meet you all .
What do you guys think of the argument someone makes : burgundy is too expensive I drink barolo and barbaresco instead ??
Fine, but Barbaresco is a totally different wine than Burgundy. Just because wines are light bodied or high acidity doesn’t make them similar. You might as well say Burgundy is too expensive I drink Oregon Pinot instead, in fact that would make more sense to me as Oregon Pinot is probably more similar to Burgundy (while still being very different) than Barbaresco is

As for Barolo, same argument applies, and I’m not even sure it’s cheaper
Agreed , but we can't deny there are similarities. And price wise, what can you buy in burgundy for 50/60usd ? As for the top of the range stuff pie' Franco , ca' di morisso, ester canale,bartolo mascarello are a fraction of the price of top burgundy .
Similar as in a Chevy Corvette vs. a Porsche 911, maybe. They are different wines. If you like Barolo and Barbaresco and find better QPR there, go for it. There are many great ones, and they do cost less than the top tier Burgundies. But they are not a substitute for Burgundy.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#122 Post by Kris Patten » November 10th, 2019, 7:49 am

Some great recommendations here for Burgundy, for those that believe that value/quality still exists. I will only add that as someone who sells Jadot, buys Drouhin and Bouchard as larger negociants with wide offerings and good to great quality, you still need to shop these producers vineyard holdings, buy 1, taste, then decide to buy more, because you can and they'll be available.

Jadot Clos St Jacques and Drouhin Clos des Mouches can both offer a Grand Cru experience while Jadot Clos des Ursules and frankly the entire Beaune portfolio offer excellent value and ageability. Jadot when it comes to Cotes de Nuits isn as safe, for instance I won't buy Echezeaux from Jadot, I just don't like it, never have, it's a head scratcher for me.

The lesson: buyer beware always exists, but the ability to taste and buy larger houses is a great option for consumers.
Last edited by Kris Patten on November 10th, 2019, 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#123 Post by g.colangelo » November 10th, 2019, 8:08 am

Lorenzo F wrote:
November 10th, 2019, 4:56 am
Agreed , but we can't deny there are similarities. And price wise, what can you buy in burgundy for 50/60usd ? As for the top of the range stuff pie' Franco , ca' di morisso, ester canale,bartolo mascarello are a fraction of the price of top burgundy .
I guess you are viewing things from a US pricing perspective, which I do not know. In Europe I think that pricewise the situation of the two wine regions is similar, with Burgundy being ahead in the high-price race, but Barolo-Barbaresco following rather closely. Especially in the last couple of years prices have increased very steeply in the Langhe. The truth is, however, that in both regions you can still find wonderful wines at very reasonable prices, especially if you buy at their cellars.

For what concerns top of the range stuff: does it really matter that ca d' morissio and monfortino are 500-1000 euros whereas Rousseau or DRC even above that?
G i l b e r t o

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#124 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » November 10th, 2019, 9:02 am

Lorenzo F wrote:
November 10th, 2019, 4:56 am
Marcu$ Stanley wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 4:41 pm
Lorenzo F wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 2:17 pm
Hi guys first post here . Nice to meet you all .
What do you guys think of the argument someone makes : burgundy is too expensive I drink barolo and barbaresco instead ??
Fine, but Barbaresco is a totally different wine than Burgundy. Just because wines are light bodied or high acidity doesn’t make them similar. You might as well say Burgundy is too expensive I drink Oregon Pinot instead, in fact that would make more sense to me as Oregon Pinot is probably more similar to Burgundy (while still being very different) than Barbaresco is

As for Barolo, same argument applies, and I’m not even sure it’s cheaper
Agreed , but we can't deny there are similarities. And price wise, what can you buy in burgundy for 50/60usd ? As for the top of the range stuff pie' Franco , ca' di morisso, ester canale,bartolo mascarello are a fraction of the price of top burgundy .
There’s plenty of good village and even premier cru stuff in the 50-70 price range if you shop around a bit.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#125 Post by Lorenzo F » November 10th, 2019, 11:32 am

g.colangelo wrote:
November 10th, 2019, 8:08 am
Lorenzo F wrote:
November 10th, 2019, 4:56 am
Agreed , but we can't deny there are similarities. And price wise, what can you buy in burgundy for 50/60usd ? As for the top of the range stuff pie' Franco , ca' di morisso, ester canale,bartolo mascarello are a fraction of the price of top burgundy .
I guess you are viewing things from a US pricing perspective, which I do not know. In Europe I think that pricewise the situation of the two wine regions is similar, with Burgundy being ahead in the high-price race, but Barolo-Barbaresco following rather closely. Especially in the last couple of years prices have increased very steeply in the Langhe. The truth is, however, that in both regions you can still find wonderful wines at very reasonable prices, especially if you buy at their cellars.

For what concerns top of the range stuff: does it really matter that ca d' morissio and monfortino are 500-1000 euros whereas Rousseau or DRC even above that?
Sure I agree there has been some speculations on some names ( Rinaldi and Burlotto to name a couple ) but at source they remain cheap in relative value compare to burgundy .if I m not mistaken monfortino 2010 came out at 270 euro, I guess it matters for those who are lucky enough to drinking these type of wines.
Fioravanti

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#126 Post by Dan Kravitz » November 10th, 2019, 3:39 pm

I have limits both on time and frankness in continuing to post on this thread, but here's one more:

Shay, I cannot give you more than a smattering of more specific recommendations. As far as style, wines from my recommended vineyards are all over the map.

A few specifics:
Non-commercial post: I have not sold any of these wines for over a decade.

Very hard to go wrong with Savigny Vergelesses or Serpentieres, and even if you do the relatively low costs make it not too much of a risk. I forgot to mention Savigny Dominode. Bruno Clair makes very fine but relatively pricey wine here.

Beaune 'Clos des Ursules' is a Monopole of Jadot. A big +1 to Chris Patten's recco of all of the Beaune wines from Jadot. And another +1 to his hesitation on Jadot in the Cote de Nuits in general (while agreeing that their Gevrey Clos St Jacques is superb and reliable). As per my original post, I simply don't find values in the Cote de Nuits. Great wines at mind-boggling prices, but below that level, comparable quality (but not style) to what I recommended, at higher prices.

Most of the Jadot Beaunes are very enjoyable at 5 - 10 years, give 'Ursules' longer. Among the greatest wines on my list are the Epenots and especially Rugiens from de Courcel. Ditto Comte Armand for Epeneaux. But these really need longer than 10 years and can easily go 30 in fine vintages.

Clos de la Pousse d'Or in Volnay makes fine to great wines, IMO close to if not equal the quality of Marquis d'Angerville but much less expensive (but not cheap!). They are one of the producers of Santenay 'Tavannes', possibly the best, but there are other fine wines out there are easy-to-swallow prices.

Dan Kravitz
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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#127 Post by James Billy » November 10th, 2019, 11:11 pm

L

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#128 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » November 11th, 2019, 6:06 am

Jadot Beze and CSD are nice. Their suchots aren’t bad, and I had a nice sentiers too.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#129 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng » November 11th, 2019, 6:08 am

My burg red cellar is a bit more cdb than most, probably ~50:50. I tend to like Volnay and Chambolle most, and there’s good value for cdb reds in general. My biggest holdings in cdb are Nicolas Rossignol, Angerville, Drouhin and Clerget. In CDN it’s Barthod, Chevillon, Drouhin-Laroze and Sigaut.
Last edited by Mich@el Ch@ng on November 11th, 2019, 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#130 Post by Markus S » November 11th, 2019, 8:20 am

Lorenzo F wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 2:17 pm
Hi guys first post here . Nice to meet you all .
What do you guys think of the argument someone makes : burgundy is too expensive I drink barolo and barbaresco instead ??
When G. Rinaldi and B. Mascarello sell for over $300/bottle, I say your argument falls flat.
$ _ € ® e . k @

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#131 Post by Lorenzo F » November 11th, 2019, 10:10 am

Markus S wrote:
November 11th, 2019, 8:20 am
Lorenzo F wrote:
November 9th, 2019, 2:17 pm
Hi guys first post here . Nice to meet you all .
What do you guys think of the argument someone makes : burgundy is too expensive I drink barolo and barbaresco instead ??
When G. Rinaldi and B. Mascarello sell for over $300/bottle, I say your argument falls flat.
Understood, up to 4/5 years ago you could have bought rinaldi or Burlotto for 45usd without any problems.then speculations occured There are plenty of producers of both barbaresco and barolo for 40/50 euros.B. Mascarello is a different story I guess as I would consider it within the top 4/5 producers . Even at 300 euros are we not miles from burgundy top to semi-top??
Not trying to force the comparason just curious to know what you guys thought .
Fioravanti

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#132 Post by Dan Kravitz » November 11th, 2019, 4:57 pm

to Marcus S,

When the cheapest DRC is well over $1000, as is Drouhin Musigny, and Rousseau Chambertin is at $2000 and I don't think the argument falls flat.

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Re: Thoughts on Buying and Consuming BURGUNDY

#133 Post by Markus S » November 11th, 2019, 5:53 pm

Dan Kravitz wrote:
November 11th, 2019, 4:57 pm
to Marcus S,

When the cheapest DRC is well over $1000, as is Drouhin Musigny, and Rousseau Chambertin is at $2000 and I don't think the argument falls flat.

Dan Kravitz
Maybe so, but I've never been able to afford those Burgs anyway, but the ones I mentioned used to be recently buyable.
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