Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC - Happy Ending!

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J.Durham
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Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC - Happy Ending!

#1 Post by J.Durham » September 29th, 2018, 12:52 pm

I thought I would pass along my experience with Total Wine Bordeaux futures. I've purchased futures for the '14, '15, and '16 vintages. I had some issues with delivery of '14 Vieux Ch Certan, but eventually all was well and I got the wine I ordered. Unfortunately, I was recently informed that my ordered and purchased 2015 VCC would not be delivered. I found this incredibly frustrating, as I had inquired about the status of this order multiple times and was always given a date for expected delivery. I got the rest of my bottles including some 375's (about 4 mixed cases) and highly sought Ch Canon, but this made me very nervous about my pending 2016 purchases. They seemed somewhat apologetic, I was offered the opportunity to purchase some other 2015's at release price, but of course the bottles with considerable appreciation and those which were highly allocated are gone. I ended up with some Eglise-Clinet. I didn't lose money or anything, but you would think that with a company of this size if things go wrong they would go a little beyond the minimum in customer service. But no, very transactional. I regret not buying more futures from retailers I've built relationships with over time, despite having to pay 100% up front. Lesson learned.

Somewhat similar to the experience in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=141470&p=2287551&hi ... e#p2287551

Anyone else have issues?
Last edited by J.Durham on April 20th, 2019, 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#2 Post by Victor Hong » September 29th, 2018, 2:15 pm

What was the explanation if any?
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#3 Post by Tom Reddick » September 30th, 2018, 12:00 am

I too am interested in hearing their explanation, but also I would say there is zero excuse for non-delivery of futures unless they can specifically tell you that something very odd happened- such as a pallet of wine being damaged by a forklift etc. And even then, a company of this size has the resources to make good. Even if it was just a 50% deposit, you PAID up front for these wines.

Appreciate you posting this. I have not had any trouble like this yet- but after some very good interactions with TW when they had a lot of 2014s to sell (and some big spending), my opinion of their operation based on a number of recent experiences has plummeted. The individual wine managers at the stores are pretty terrific- but they are very limited in what they can do by company policy.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#4 Post by Victor Hong » September 30th, 2018, 4:35 am

If the wine had arrived but the customer refused to pay for the balance, the company would likely have used its resources to force the completion of the contract, which it unilaterally defaulted.

We should ask ourselves if Total Wine resembles Premier Cru.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#5 Post by R. Frankel » September 30th, 2018, 5:30 am

While I doubt their failure is like PC’s - an about to collapse pyramid scheme - this is a pretty offensive failure. VCC is a very widely available wine. One can only assume gross incompetence if not deliberate scamming. They promised to sell something they clearly did not have the ability to sell.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#6 Post by Gerry Morrisey » September 30th, 2018, 6:11 am

I'm still waiting on 15' futures of some half bottles from TW, Ch Poyferre and Clos l'Eglise. Everything else I ordered came in a while ago. Anyone else still waiting for anything?

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#7 Post by Victor Hong » September 30th, 2018, 6:40 am

R. Frankel wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 5:30 am
While I doubt their failure is like PC’s - an about to collapse pyramid scheme - this is a pretty offensive failure. VCC is a very widely available wine. One can only assume gross incompetence if not deliberate scamming. They promised to sell something they clearly did not have the ability to sell.
Go to a store and speak in person to a senior manager——-in front of other customers.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#8 Post by J Dove » September 30th, 2018, 6:52 am

I don't think the OP was very effective in getting TW to honor their commitment. You shouldn't have to push so hard -- but, if the same thing happened to me, I'd have my VCC.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#9 Post by John S » September 30th, 2018, 6:59 am

Been out of the futures game for a while but I really can not think of a good reason why they would fail to deliver. A solid organization (far as I know) and these orders were placed years ago with cash upfront. Maybe they made a mistake in the original order? If so that is on them. Maybe they broke some? Same thing. I am not a whiner but in this case I would definitely push and make a stink about it. After all this is the main reason one buys futures, to secure your purchase with a reputable merchant for future delivery.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#10 Post by Brian Gilp » September 30th, 2018, 7:19 am

Are these futures or pre-arrivals? I thought there was a difference and given that it’s not all paid up front I’m assuming these are not futures.

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#11 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 7:51 am

Victor Hong wrote:
September 29th, 2018, 2:15 pm
What was the explanation if any?
Nope. Just boiler plate statement that they couldn’t get the wine. And I hadn’t just paid 50% deposit, but the whole bill

My first choice was to move to the 16 vintage, but that option was denied.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#12 Post by Neal.Mollen » September 30th, 2018, 8:00 am

It's disturbing that you've had this problem. Have you gone up the chain? How far? The discretion to vary policy increases the higher you go.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#13 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 8:03 am

J Dove wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 6:52 am
I don't think the OP was very effective in getting TW to honor their commitment. You shouldn't have to push so hard -- but, if the same thing happened to me, I'd have my VCC.
That’s quite a statement. I had been hounding them for MONTHS. This was the purchase for 2015 I was most excited about (other than Canon). I was always given an expected delivery date— first April, then June, then Sept. Then suddenly got a refund and a “sorry” message.

Why exactly is this a failure on my part? Maybe I don’t spend enough to be a priority but I had about $5k in futures for each vintage between 14-16.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#14 Post by Arv R » September 30th, 2018, 8:04 am

What happened to you basically defeats the WHOLE POINT of buying EP.

VCC is a relatively small production estate, and that vintage is one likely to go up in value.

One of the few items potentially worth taking the risk to pay up front for.

A company with the capital and legal resources of TW really should have delivered these to you, even at the cost of going to the open market and finding your promised and paid for allocation. That's a drop in the bucket to that firm.

The whole futures game is really a coin toss where

a) the merchants win by delivering wines that have gone down in value since purchase
b) the merchants win by not delivering wines than have gone up in value since purchase
c) the merchants win by just keeping the money and not delivering anything
d) the merchants swap out the desirable formats ordered for easier to find 750mls, that likely would not have been ordered to begin with if that was going to be the outcome

I wonder how many other customers got hosed on this but just haven't spoken up.

The merchant here, despite their size, doesn't have a long history in the futures niche and seems to be using their clients for the learning curve.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#15 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 8:08 am

Neal.Mollen wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 8:00 am
It's disturbing that you've had this problem. Have you gone up the chain? How far? The discretion to vary policy increases the higher you go.
I lost a lot of leverage once they refunded me. And they did that without me requesting it.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#16 Post by John S » September 30th, 2018, 8:08 am

I would go into your store, bring all those receipts for various years, say you paid in full and expect delivery. Assuming that does nothing since it is at the local level, then ask for the name of and to speak with the person who runs the Futures program there. There are other ways to escalate if you continue to get stonewalled but basically this is a breach of ct.

I am forgiving of human errors but this sounds otherwise.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#17 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 8:10 am

Arv R wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 8:04 am
What happened to you basically defeats the WHOLE POINT of buying EP.

VCC is a relatively small production estate, and that vintage is one likely to go up in value.

One of the few items potentially worth taking the risk to pay up front for.

A company with the capital and legal resources of TW really should have delivered these to you, even at the cost of going to the open market and finding your promised and paid for allocation. That's a drop in the bucket to that firm.

The whole futures game is really a coin toss where

a) the merchants win by delivering wines that have gone down in value since purchase
b) the merchants win by not delivering wines than have gone up in value since purchase
c) the merchants win by just keeping the money and not delivering anything
d) the merchants swap out the desirable formats ordered for easier to find 750mls, that likely would not have been ordered to begin with if that was going to be the outcome

I wonder how many other customers got hosed on this but just haven't spoken up.

The merchant here, despite their size, doesn't have a long history in the futures niche and seems to be using their clients for the learning curve.
Arv, this was exactly my take on the situation. Posting mainly as a data point for others and to see if anyone else had issues.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#18 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 8:11 am

John S wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 8:08 am
I would go into your store, bring all those receipts for various years, say you paid in full and expect delivery. Assuming that does nothing since it is at the local level, then ask for the name of and to speak with the person who runs the Futures program there. There are other ways to escalate if you continue to get stonewalled but basically this is a breach of ct.

I am forgiving of human errors but this sounds otherwise.
I’ve already done this.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#19 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 8:17 am

Guys I appreciate the advice, but I’m out of options. Mearly posting as a “this is what happened to me” sort of post.

I came very close to cancelling my 2016 orders, but instead will just shift the rest of my 2015 and 2016 buying to other retailers. I will probably but much more 16’s as it’s a birth year for my son and excellent vintage.

FYI all my futures from basins and Posner came through fine.
-Josh

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#20 Post by John S » September 30th, 2018, 8:19 am

Josh,

So you spoke with the the person who runs this Nationally and what did he/she say about this?

This really stinks and this is exactly why one buys futures from a large viable merchant. I still hope you get some better resolution.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#21 Post by J Dove » September 30th, 2018, 8:24 am

And, when the person who runs the National Futures program gave you some BS answer -- and you said -- so, I'm just going to write a letter documenting what has happened to the President of Total Wine. And, failing progress there, I'm just going to make sure that every online wine community knows that you backed out of my futures. Then I'm going to take you to small claims court and make you waste your time showing up to make your case or lose and pay me anyway.

Are you sure this is how you want to handle this Mr. Total Wine Futures Manager?


And how annoying is it that I just got off the phone with one of their stores in DE that has mags? Too bad they don't ship.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#22 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 8:43 am

John S wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 8:19 am
Josh,

So you spoke with the the person who runs this Nationally and what did he/she say about this?

This really stinks and this is exactly why one buys futures from a large viable merchant. I still hope you get some better resolution.
Im not sure who runs the whole program. Most of my recent interaction has been with Paul at the concierge program who I understand to be a key figure.

I have not yet informed my local store manager, they had been quite involved until recently when they advised me to interface with the concierge program directly. All the expected delivery dates came locally after checking with national program (usually a 24-48hr process)
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#23 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 8:46 am

J Dove wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 8:24 am
And, when the person who runs the National Futures program gave you some BS answer -- and you said -- so, I'm just going to write a letter documenting what has happened to the President of Total Wine. And, failing progress there, I'm just going to make sure that every online wine community knows that you backed out of my futures. Then I'm going to take you to small claims court and make you waste your time showing up to make your case or lose and pay me anyway.

Are you sure this is how you want to handle this Mr. Total Wine Futures Manager?


And how annoying is it that I just got off the phone with one of their stores in DE that has mags? Too bad they don't ship.
I’m not the type of person that makes threats to get my way. But I can assure you my disappointment and displeasure was clear, and that this interaction would affect future purchases.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#24 Post by alan weinberg » September 30th, 2018, 9:06 am

They should have bought on open market and made good your paid and confirmed purchase.

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#25 Post by AlexS » September 30th, 2018, 9:13 am

alan weinberg wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:06 am
They should have bought on open market and made good your paid and confirmed purchase.
This.

For a company with the resources of TW, making right on the undelivered wine would be a drop in the bucket.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#26 Post by David Glasser » September 30th, 2018, 9:21 am

WS shows 2015 VCC availability at multiple merchants. TW could honor your purchase if they wanted to. But if they dropped the ball on hundreds of cases, they would have good reason to prefer just refunding your money.

Not criticizing or suggesting you do more Josh, but I agree with others that the outcome could have been different if it had been worth expending the energy to do as Jim Dove suggests. The problem is, the time required to do that is often worth more than the difference in price between the futures purchase and current retail. TW knows that and is counting on it. What they don’t know (and may not care about) is how much it might affect their future futures business.

I rarely use TW. You’ve given me another reason to make that never.

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#27 Post by David Cooper » September 30th, 2018, 9:26 am

AlexS wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:13 am
alan weinberg wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:06 am
They should have bought on open market and made good your paid and confirmed purchase.
This.

For a company with the resources of TW, making right on the undelivered wine would be a drop in the bucket.
So would their cost to litigate with the OP. To him though that cost could be onerous.

I think huge companies like these have an equation hidden deep in head office that keeps them warm at night balancing legal exposure, customer service and profits. They are never going to say "go ahead and sue us" but they are confident you won't.

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#28 Post by AlexS » September 30th, 2018, 9:31 am

David Cooper wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:26 am
AlexS wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:13 am
alan weinberg wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:06 am
They should have bought on open market and made good your paid and confirmed purchase.
This.

For a company with the resources of TW, making right on the undelivered wine would be a drop in the bucket.
So would their cost to litigate with the OP. To him though that cost could be onerous.

I think huge companies like these have an equation hidden deep in head office that keeps them warm at night balancing legal exposure, customer service and profits. They are never going to say "go ahead and sue us" but they are confident you won't.
I'd like to think a good lawyer could recoup both legal expenses plus current market of the VCC for him. As a last resort, I'd certainly consider spending the 30-60 minutes of billables exploring this with my own very good lawyer depending on how ticked off I was at TW about this (were I the OP).

And let's be honest, were the OP completely satisfied with TW's resolution, he wouldn't be posting here to begin with.
Last edited by AlexS on September 30th, 2018, 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#29 Post by RyanC » September 30th, 2018, 9:33 am

Would be a fun class action to pursue. Discovery might "require" a trip to Pomerol.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#30 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 30th, 2018, 9:47 am

RyanC wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:33 am
Would be a fun class action to pursue. Discovery might "require" a trip to Pomerol.
Ooohhh. Not to mention an RFP directed at certain relevant “things”.

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#31 Post by Mattstolz » September 30th, 2018, 9:53 am

thats frustrating. makes me nervous about my futures purchases of canon, which seem to disappear quickly in recent years as well.

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#32 Post by Victor Hong » September 30th, 2018, 9:57 am

Post all the names and e-mails in an easily searchable manner.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#33 Post by David Glasser » September 30th, 2018, 9:58 am

AlexS wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:31 am
David Cooper wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:26 am
AlexS wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:13 am


This.

For a company with the resources of TW, making right on the undelivered wine would be a drop in the bucket.
So would their cost to litigate with the OP. To him though that cost could be onerous.

I think huge companies like these have an equation hidden deep in head office that keeps them warm at night balancing legal exposure, customer service and profits. They are never going to say "go ahead and sue us" but they are confident you won't.
I'd like to think a good lawyer could recoup both legal expenses plus current market of the VCC for him. As a last resort, I'd certainly consider spending the 30-60 minutes of billables exploring this with my own very good lawyer depending on how ticked off I was at TW about this (were I the OP).

And let's be honest, were the OP completely satisfied with TW's resolution, he wouldn't be posting here to begin with.
We see these or similar stories here with some regularity. Have any consumers successfully sued for nondelivery of futures? With success defined as:
1) having won and
2) the consumer felt it was worth the time and money to sue

Seems it’s easier to just take the refund and forego the purchase or spend the extra money at current market price. Winning and getting legal costs covered is never a certainty. That uncertainty, plus the time and hassle of a suit even if you win, makes it a non-starter for most unless a large amount of money is involved or winning for winning's sake is a huge priority.

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#34 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 10:05 am

AlexS wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:13 am
alan weinberg wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:06 am
They should have bought on open market and made good your paid and confirmed purchase.
This.

For a company with the resources of TW, making right on the undelivered wine would be a drop in the bucket.
Agreed. I would have accepted just swapping for 16 if they ate the cost difference. Though would have preferred 15
-Josh

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#35 Post by Alan Gottlieb » September 30th, 2018, 10:14 am

Small claims court could be an avenue to pursue

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#36 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 10:14 am

David Glasser wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:21 am
WS shows 2015 VCC availability at multiple merchants. TW could honor your purchase if they wanted to. But if they dropped the ball on hundreds of cases, they would have good reason to prefer just refunding your money.

Not criticizing or suggesting you do more Josh, but I agree with others that the outcome could have been different if it had been worth expending the energy to do as Jim Dove suggests. The problem is, the time required to do that is often worth more than the difference in price between the futures purchase and current retail. TW knows that and is counting on it. What they don’t know (and may not care about) is how much it might affect their future futures business.

I rarely use TW. You’ve given me another reason to make that never.
This has been going back and forth since Feb. I’ve already put too much time into it. David, I think you are also a physician so you know finding 20-30mins during the workday to deal with optional personal issues is difficult. I got my ‘14 VCC first and this was last so I knew something was up . The recent change was instead of getting an expected delivery date I suddenly got a refund and the option to purchase other ‘15s
-Josh

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#37 Post by AlexS » September 30th, 2018, 10:29 am

David Glasser wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:58 am
AlexS wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:31 am
David Cooper wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:26 am


So would their cost to litigate with the OP. To him though that cost could be onerous.

I think huge companies like these have an equation hidden deep in head office that keeps them warm at night balancing legal exposure, customer service and profits. They are never going to say "go ahead and sue us" but they are confident you won't.
I'd like to think a good lawyer could recoup both legal expenses plus current market of the VCC for him. As a last resort, I'd certainly consider spending the 30-60 minutes of billables exploring this with my own very good lawyer depending on how ticked off I was at TW about this (were I the OP).

And let's be honest, were the OP completely satisfied with TW's resolution, he wouldn't be posting here to begin with.
We see these or similar stories here with some regularity. Have any consumers successfully sued for nondelivery of futures? With success defined as:
1) having won and
2) the consumer felt it was worth the time and money to sue

Seems it’s easier to just take the refund and forego the purchase or spend the extra money at current market price. Winning and getting legal costs covered is never a certainty. That uncertainty, plus the time and hassle of a suit even if you win, makes it a non-starter for most unless a large amount of money is involved or winning for winning's sake is a huge priority.
David, great question, all very good points and to be clear, I'm not advocating the OP pursue legal recourse, my response was made after David Cooper brought that element into the equation.

I stand my original post that a company of TW's scale should have been able to make this situation right for the OP, certainly enough so where he would feel completely satisfied by the outcome (which could easily extend to losing a small amount of money by simply sourcing the wine in question for him). Choosing to pursue such an unsatisfactory course of resolution speaks loudly of how TW views their customers, especially considering OP sounds like a very good customer -- I hope he takes his business elsewhere.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#38 Post by David Glasser » September 30th, 2018, 10:50 am

Agreed Alex and completely understand Josh's desire to just move on.

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#39 Post by Kirk.Grant » September 30th, 2018, 11:19 am

A big company like Total Wine should have ZERO problem sourcing wines they "pre-sold". They may not like the fact that the wines have raised in price, but they took the money long before the wines were released. I'd stop buying ALL futures through this company and am grateful for the original poster's willingness to share this.

If they did have a random problem like an over-turned deliver truck, or heat damaged wines that they refused...they could go a long way in making this right in other ways.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#40 Post by Nathan Smyth » September 30th, 2018, 1:02 pm

J.Durham wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 8:08 am
Neal.Mollen wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 8:00 am
It's disturbing that you've had this problem. Have you gone up the chain? How far? The discretion to vary policy increases the higher you go.
I lost a lot of leverage once they refunded me. And they did that without me requesting it.
Did they pay interest?

Or did they just refund the nominal value of the purchase?

PS: What happens to positive balances on credit cards? Is there an easy way to move money from your credit card back to your checking account? Or will The System swallow another four or five points if you try to pull off that maneuver?

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#41 Post by Neal.Mollen » September 30th, 2018, 1:43 pm

Josh, I recognize that you are willing to move on and I get that. If I were in your position, though, I'd probably write a measured, professional letter to the nat'l sales manager or the top exec in their concierge program. I'd explain that buying futures is not like buying a lottery ticket -- sometimes it comes through and others it doesn't. The wine is not unavailable. If Total has to buy the wine at a premium and take a loss, that is their cost of doing business, not yours. If they expect to sell futures, they can't simply refuse to deliver whenever doing so means they can't make their anticipated margins.

Chances are they still won't make it good, but that's where you are now. A letter is a no-cost effort and you never know, you might get some satisfaction.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#42 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 30th, 2018, 1:48 pm

alan weinberg wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:06 am
They should have bought on open market and made good your paid and confirmed purchase.
+1. If theycan’t Find the wines stateside Total wine is in contact with the European trade. I gather you don’t have much time, but you were sold wine as a future on the basis that you had locked wine in at a certain price. Now they are reneging on the contract. You are not only owed the original cost but any benefits that the early payment entitles you too.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#43 Post by Mark Golodetz » September 30th, 2018, 1:49 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 1:48 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:06 am
They should have bought on open market and made good your paid and confirmed purchase.
+1. If theycan’t Find the wines stateside Total wine is in contact with the European trade. I gather you don’t have much time, but you were sold wine as a future on the basis that you had locked wine in at a certain price. Now they are reneging on the contract. You are not only owed the original cost but any benefits that the early payment entitles you to.
ITB
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#44 Post by Jayson Cohen » September 30th, 2018, 2:02 pm

Whether TW violated a contract as a legal matter depends on what the contract says. Which none of us know. That may be a different proposition than what TW should have done as an accommodation as a matter of customer service.

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#45 Post by Tom Reddick » September 30th, 2018, 3:33 pm

Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 1:48 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:06 am
They should have bought on open market and made good your paid and confirmed purchase.
+1. If theycan’t Find the wines stateside Total wine is in contact with the European trade. I gather you don’t have much time, but you were sold wine as a future on the basis that you had locked wine in at a certain price. Now they are reneging on the contract. You are not only owed the original cost but any benefits that the early payment entitles you too.
Actually, Total Wine has a direct import relationship with Vieux Chateau Certan. To the OP- I know by now you must be sick of this whole mess, but a polite email to VCC directly could get you some interesting results with little effort.

Any chateau that has given a retailer direct access like that will want to know when futures are not delivered.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#46 Post by J Dove » September 30th, 2018, 3:41 pm

Exactly. A modest amount of creativity here could set this whole thing straight without investing a ton of time.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#47 Post by J.Durham » September 30th, 2018, 3:51 pm

Tom Reddick wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 3:33 pm
Mark Golodetz wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 1:48 pm
alan weinberg wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 9:06 am
They should have bought on open market and made good your paid and confirmed purchase.
+1. If theycan’t Find the wines stateside Total wine is in contact with the European trade. I gather you don’t have much time, but you were sold wine as a future on the basis that you had locked wine in at a certain price. Now they are reneging on the contract. You are not only owed the original cost but any benefits that the early payment entitles you too.
Actually, Total Wine has a direct import relationship with Vieux Chateau Certan. To the OP- I know by now you must be sick of this whole mess, but a polite email to VCC directly could get you some interesting results with little effort.

Any chateau that has given a retailer direct access like that will want to know when futures are not delivered.

Wow that’s a pretty remarkable piece of information. I was rather peeved I couldn’t just change to another vintage. (But I preferred the 15) Sounds like at the least that could have been possible.
-Josh

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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#48 Post by R I C H M » September 30th, 2018, 7:01 pm

Gerry Morrisey wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 6:11 am
I'm still waiting on 15' futures of some half bottles from TW, Ch Poyferre and Clos l'Eglise. Everything else I ordered came in a while ago. Anyone else still waiting for anything?
I was just informed, no Clos L’eglise 2015 in 375s

According to TW they didn’t make any? Seems weird but I have no reason to doubt them.

I ordered some as futures and they emailed just last week that they would offer 750s at the futures prices. Unfortunately, not such a great deal as according to WS pro, the wine has not really gone up in price.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#49 Post by Tom Reddick » September 30th, 2018, 8:09 pm

R I C H M wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 7:01 pm
Gerry Morrisey wrote:
September 30th, 2018, 6:11 am
I'm still waiting on 15' futures of some half bottles from TW, Ch Poyferre and Clos l'Eglise. Everything else I ordered came in a while ago. Anyone else still waiting for anything?
I was just informed, no Clos L’eglise 2015 in 375s

According to TW they didn’t make any? Seems weird but I have no reason to doubt them.

I ordered some as futures and they emailed just last week that they would offer 750s at the futures prices. Unfortunately, not such a great deal as according to WS pro, the wine has not really gone up in price.
I just checked current and prior Winesearcher Pro worldwide data and can find no listings for half bottles of 2015 Clos L'Eglise.

That said- one of the benefits of a true futures offering is that chateaux will do bottlings to custom requested formats. This is how many of the largest sizes are made- custom requests on futures.

So the real question is why was Total Wine offering halves of this on futures if they had not already ordered halves on a true futures offering, or were not in a position to treat all customer orders as true futures offerings and make such requests to chateaux when special formats were ordered.

I do not normally like to post and get involved here on retailer-customer disputes, but the concept of Bordeaux futures is too important an issue as many of the largest scale frauds have started with fake futures offerings- and even where fraud is not an issue, too many people sell "futures" that are not in fact true futures where you pay up front, and the merchant hands over your money up front and so and so forth up the chain until you have a guaranteed order coming from the chateaux of the precise order you placed in the precise formats you requested. In the majority of cases you get your money back, but you still take one hell of a loss buying after release- plus you have lost potential earned interest on money spent 2 years prior.

Given that Total Wine is only asking for half up front, this thread is starting to make me think they are preselling orders of their own which are not true futures- which means they are making interest on your money and guaranteeing your order- but you have no way of knowing what their arrangement is on their end and whether they are putting down money up front etc.. In other words, given that the term "Bordeaux Futures" has a very specific trade meaning that is generally known to wine buyers- it is possible this is unscrupulous marketing at the very least.

I should also note that if you visit Total Wine's website- you can see that they too have a "Winery Direct" relationship with Clos L'Eglise. So there is zero excuse for them not delivering as promised. And for the pair of you who got shafted on these halves, writing to Clos L'Eglise directly would be a great service to the wine community if you are willing to let them know of the situation.
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Re: Total Wine Futures - Nondelivery of '15 VCC

#50 Post by Arv R » October 1st, 2018, 7:43 am

FWIW There seem to have been many prior reports on this board of TW not honoring specific sizes ordered.
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