Koch sues Rudy K

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#101 Post by k s h i n » September 21st, 2009, 6:14 am

I used to tell my colleagues that if you are not fully comfortable with the project result, just used a lot of technical terms and make the presentation nonsensical and long to confuse the heck out of your clients.

It appears as Mr. Meadow didn’t attend too many mega tastings per his response and I applaud for that. However, a wine critic informed me in person, early as in the early 2006 about a collector who seemed to be involved in unreasonably high number of counterfeit wine dealings. Having this context, unless Allen was not aware of this, I am not quite certain whether all ethical standards were met. Per Allen, there were only 608 bottles of the 45 Romanee Contis were made, over 40,000 have probably been drunk. So should there been some questions regarding the authenticity?

A few posted that the consumers will benefit if the critics attend these type of tastings as the critics can see how the new wines will developed. How many consumers can afford pre 45, Vogue, Roumier, La Tache and RC is beyond me. Also, were these wines produced in the same manner as now?
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#102 Post by WvanGorp » September 21st, 2009, 6:37 am

Kevin, as you have said, there is nothing free in life. Critics invited to these types of tastings usually have their meals paid and get to drink what is supposed to be glorious wine (now we know some of it, fake). Sometimes the critics' irrational exuberance at being invited to such events gets the best of them. If it helps someone pass off to the unsuspecting bottles that are fake, it really isn't a service.

With full respect to Allen and other critics, most of whom I admire fully, the assertion that going to tastings to drink uber rare wines that are very old so that "I can have a reference point for the consumer" is a bit of marketing language. There are opportunities at more neutral venues, such as at the Domaine, where this is occasionally possible. The notion that "I'm only doing it for you" rings a bit hallow. Let's talk turkey: Its fun for the critic to be invited, to be part of this small, rare "in" group drinking wines that cost tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, and to be the center of attention. Sometimes the draw in that can cloud one's judgment that perhaps they are being used to advance someone else's agenda.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#103 Post by k s h i n » September 21st, 2009, 9:56 am

Wilfred,
This is precisely my point and I am in complete agreement.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#104 Post by Daniel Posner » September 21st, 2009, 1:12 pm

This is how I read it, but I just wanted to make sure. I saw a love fest happening after his post and I did not understand why. He attends the events. Might taste wine that is fake and continues to attend events sponsored by those individuals and we are supposed excuse him from any of the ill effects...a vicious cycle, much like Jay Miller's tasting cycle of SB, Chard, Merlot, Cab...rinse and repeat.

As Kevin and Wilfred have pointed out, tasting notes from Allen Meadows on 1959 Ponsot Clos St Denis benefits about 50 people in the world, max.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#105 Post by John Morris » September 21st, 2009, 1:28 pm

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#106 Post by k s h i n » September 21st, 2009, 1:38 pm

John Morris wrote:
Kevin Shin wrote:Per Allen, there were only 608 bottles of the 45 Romanee Contis were made, over 40,000 have probably been drunk. So should there been some questions regarding the authenticity?
I think that was John Kapon's joke, not Allen Meadows'.
JP's email generated on 11/22/2005.

The Burghound got up and shared some wisdom with us, as he could not stay in his chair after this flight! Allen joked that while 'only 608 bottles of this wine were made, over 40,000 have probably been drunk.' That got quite a laugh, and he continued on that while 'La Tache comes to you and seduces you, Romanee Conti makes you come to it; it doesn't care. All (wines in this flight) are great vintages; all are pre-phyloxerra vines, and note the texture (accordingly).'

People will see as they want to see things. Some even think that this is a witch hunting on my part. I am just suggesting that the critics need to be more careful.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#107 Post by John Morris » September 21st, 2009, 1:39 pm

I stand corrected. I'd forgotten that Kapon was quoting Meadows.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#108 Post by Tom Blach » September 21st, 2009, 2:10 pm

Daniel Posner wrote:This is how I read it, but I just wanted to make sure. I saw a love fest happening after his post and I did not understand why. He attends the events. Might taste wine that is fake and continues to attend events sponsored by those individuals and we are supposed excuse him from any of the ill effects...a vicious cycle, much like Jay Miller's tasting cycle of SB, Chard, Merlot, Cab...rinse and repeat.

As Kevin and Wilfred have pointed out, tasting notes from Allen Meadows on 1959 Ponsot Clos St Denis benefits about 50 people in the world, max.
I keep asking myself what are the implications of all this for the forthcoming Vosne-Romanee book, of which a trailed highlight is an account of the world's biggest ever vertical of Romanée-Conti.

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#109 Post by Daniel Posner » September 21st, 2009, 2:15 pm

Tom

In the short term, probably not much of an issue.

I would hope that some critics might just think about distancing themselves in the future. Or make better judgements.

In this case, Allen Meadows, whom I respect and subscribe to, is taking some credit for the Ponsot debacle.

Should he also take credit for comments like the John Kapon quote? It does not put him in the best light, especially given the circumstances.

I recall John Kapon telling the Parker board, or somewhere else, when questioned about the Greenberg Cellar, that he had weeded out all of the fake wine and only sold what was legit.

Seems like the best situation may have been to let the whole cellar pass on to another auction house, considering the amount of fake btls rumored to be in that cellar.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#110 Post by Dale Williams » September 21st, 2009, 3:01 pm

I'll leave the discussion of critic behavior/responsibility to others, as I have mixed feelings.

My question is why more lots don't just say "purchased at Berry Bros on futures in 1983, delivered 1985."
I'm not a buyer of anything that's very likely to be faked, my auction buys tend to have a $200/bottle or so limit (and more are under $100 than over). But I read the catalogs, and of course many collectors are described as "passionate and careful about provenance", most lots are "removed from temperature controlled cellars." etc. Sometimes there's "most of these wines were bought on release"- but it never tells you which ones weren't. The Nils Stormby cellar was the best catalog I've ever seen, because provenance was listed right there. Is it my imagination -it seems to me I used to see more "Bought at Christies Nov 1973" notes on lots a few years ago, you don't see that much now. I guess because "bought last year" doesn't have the same cachet.

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#111 Post by Allen Meadows » September 21st, 2009, 3:10 pm

Daniel Posner wrote:Tom

In the short term, probably not much of an issue.

I would hope that some critics might just think about distancing themselves in the future. Or make better judgements.

In this case, Allen Meadows, whom I respect and subscribe to, is taking some credit for the Ponsot debacle.

Should he also take credit for comments like the John Kapon quote? It does not put him in the best light, especially given the circumstances.

I recall John Kapon telling the Parker board, or somewhere else, when questioned about the Greenberg Cellar, that he had weeded out all of the fake wine and only sold what was legit.

Seems like the best situation may have been to let the whole cellar pass on to another auction house, considering the amount of fake btls rumored to be in that cellar.
Hi Dan,

I'm afraid that I'm growing quite weary of trying to defend myself against allegations that simply are not true. It seems a fool's errand to say anything if people aren't going to read the responses. Kevin and I do not agree on this particular issue but he has at least had the courtesy to read my replies to him carefully and respond in kind. I think, again as a simple courtesy, that you could do me the same small favor.

First, I am taking no credit whatsoever for the Ponsot affair. I simply noticed that I hadn't tasted anything anywhere near that old in that particular wine and looked into it. While I did let Ponsot know that there were some questionable wines in an upcoming auction, everything that happened subsequent to that is entirely to Laurent Ponsot's credit, not mine.

Second, no tasting note for the fake 1959 Ponsot CSD exists because the wine doesn't exist. Period.

Third, like several other people, you keep repeating that no one cares whether such a note exists or not. Ok, fair enough but if that's the case, why do you (or why does anyone) care I printed a note on the wine or how it was obtained? It either matters or it doesn't. You can't say that no one gives a rat's ass and then imply that how I obtained the note is somehow important.

Fourth, please offer specifics rather than say "events that I continued to attend". What events? With whom? Sponsored by whom? I have already replied to Kevin that I have never attended a "lumber" tasting. In fact, I couldn't even tell you who is in that group. Further, I took the trouble to specifically detail what tastings that I attended on my own dime. Why that matters in terms of the validity of the notes taken I'm not sure but it seems to matter to some. Moreover, you say that some journalists "should think about distancing themselves or make better judgments". That's perfectly good advice but who exactly am I supposed to be distancing myself from?

Fifth, why is it that every journalist is now suspect based on what one guy did who exercised questionable judgment? Does that mistake (yes, I believe that he was in error) implicate every last professional critic? If so, then is beyond pointless to try and defend one's name. As it is, I do think that it's a witch hunt being conducted under the guise of something "harmless" but to what good it is supposedly serving, I couldn't tell you. As I say, if I'm writing about wines that no one cares about, why is it of concern to you or anyone else?

Lastly, I genuinely appreciate the kind words but I would appreciate it more if you would simply read more carefully what I had to say in response to Kevin and you will at least have both sides of the story. What your conclusions might be are of course yours to draw but please at least be fully informed before you draw them.

Thank you in advance,

Allen Meadows

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#112 Post by Owen Edwards » September 22nd, 2009, 8:09 am

re: tasting notes for wine I could never afford.

They're useful to me because they're interesting, because they're part of the history of the thing, because they represent how a wine has behaved over time. That interest, that validity, that historical use, is all threatened by nasty little fraudsters, and that's a great shame. But it seems a bit brash to dismiss the purpose of such TNs absolutely.

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#113 Post by Daniel Posner » September 22nd, 2009, 12:54 pm

Burghound wrote:

First, I am taking no credit whatsoever for the Ponsot affair.

Allen, you sent the correspondence to Laurent...you should take some credit...

Second, no tasting note for the fake 1959 Ponsot CSD exists because the wine doesn't exist. Period.

I know this, I meant to use wines like this as an example, not this exact wine, though

Third, like several other people, you keep repeating that no one cares whether such a note exists or not. Ok, fair enough but if that's the case, why do you (or why does anyone) care I printed a note on the wine or how it was obtained? It either matters or it doesn't. You can't say that no one gives a rat's ass and then imply that how I obtained the note is somehow important.

Allen, I never said no one cares about these notes. However, for a retailer such as myself, it is concerning to read notes on, what could be fake wines. Very scary stuff. Escpecially when you look at the Rodenstock dinner that Parker attended. He went gaga over many wines that were probably not real. Then the market goes gaga...slippery slope.


Fourth, please offer specifics rather than say "events that I continued to attend". What events?

Based upon notes offered by others, the presumption by many is that you attend many tastings/dinners. If, in fact, you do not attend tastings with JK and, in the past, RK, then my apologies.

Fifth, why is it that every journalist is now suspect based on what one guy did who exercised questionable judgment? Does that mistake (yes, I believe that he was in error) implicate every last professional critic? If so, then is beyond pointless to try and defend one's name. As it is, I do think that it's a witch hunt being conducted under the guise of something "harmless" but to what good it is supposedly serving, I couldn't tell you. As I say, if I'm writing about wines that no one cares about, why is it of concern to you or anyone else?

I think I have answered this question here and many times previous. Critics need to put themselves in the proper light, in order to earn respect. I am, by no means, questioning whether you have or have not. Nor did I start this dialog about you here or on the Parker board, where I was banned for questioning ethical practices of critics. People are looking for people to trust. Based upon the sales of High end Australian wines in recent years, coupled with the obvious sales decline of highly rated WA Spanish wines, and it is obvious to see that I was not the only one to distrust the reviews of Jay Stuart Miller. I do not think that you have that problem with Burgundy, nor will you ever. Nevertheless, critics, much like people of importance in other professions, need to be careful of the "possie" that they hang with. It was not good for Pacman Jones or Michael Vick.
Finally, Thank you Allen, for coming over here...I guess it took some "pot shots" to do it.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#114 Post by k s h i n » September 22nd, 2009, 7:27 pm

As I first posted, I got grilled at on erp. I made my point and it is the time to move on.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#115 Post by jhowe » September 22nd, 2009, 8:22 pm

Kevin Shin wrote:As I first posted, I got grilled at on erp. I made my point and it is the time to move on.
Kevin, I enjoyed reading your posts.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#116 Post by Allen Meadows » September 23rd, 2009, 9:14 am

Daniel Posner wrote:
Burghound wrote:

Finally, Thank you Allen, for coming over here...I guess it took some "pot shots" to do it.
A couple of points:

First, thank you Dan and Kevin for the gentlemanly responses. I appreciate the civility of the "debate" and it reflects well upon you and this board in my view.

Second, thank you both Dan and Philip for the kind welcome and I look forward to participating from time to time in the future.

Third, Tom, I wanted to offer a comment in response to your kind, and legitimate, concern regarding the validity of the historic Romanée-Conti vertical that has a chapter devoted to it in my upcoming book. It's important to acknowledge right up front that while there could of course have been fraudulent bottles in it, beyond one exception that I carefully note, I doubt it.

You could be forgiven if you looked askance at my confidence about this but it's not by accident that I make such an assertion. A couple of points bear keeping in mind: the first is that the group tasting these 74 vintages probably have, collectively speaking, more experience with older burgundy, and specifically the wines from the Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, that exists today; this group included the domaine's co-director Aubert de Villaine, someone who would be very difficult, if not impossible, to fool. Second, when you have that many examples of a given wine from a specific terroir whose boundaries were established long before the very first vintage in the tasting was crafted (1870), you necessarily become finely attuned to the characteristics and personality of that wine (the tasting lasted for two and one-half days to allow for plenty of time to refresh both minds and palates between tastings). Thus, oddities, had they existed, would have tended to stick out egregiously. Granted, differences of course existed due to vintage variations and storage vagaries. There was also the pre and post phylloxera variations but those were known with specificity.

I had also had most of the vintages before, which helps in assessing whether a wine is showing consistent with its prior showing. There is of course nothing to prevent the first, or second, or third bottles of a given vintage I had tasted from having been fraudulent as well but over the course of more than 30 years of chasing top flight burgundy, you have the opportunity to enjoy wines from, and with, thousands of different collectors, including the issuing domaines themselves. That doesn't eliminate the problem of detecting fraud when it's present but it materially reduces it because you have reasonably well-developed standards of reference.

The trickier part is not so much detecting outright fraud but partial (or "legitimate") fraud. This is to say for bottles that have been reconditioned to some degree. How, when, by whom and how well the refreshing was done all play a role in determining whether, and how much, the fundamental character of the wine has been changed. I personally hate the practice but if I had, say à la Maison Bouchard, a cellar full of thousands of bottles of 19th C wines, worth millions upon millions of dollars, I might be tempted to preserve their longevity, and market value, of them through these methods too.

Also, exactly when the refreshing was done plays a huge role in determining the market value. Remember that up to and including the first 50 years of the 20th C it was considered entirely appropriate for Belgian merchants to cut fine burgundy with other varieties so as to appeal to the taste of their clients, le goût Belge as it was known.

I have written extensively on these practices and while the variations on a theme are endless, the best is when the same wine is used to top up bottles, with a drop of SO2 added and a new cork inserted. But then things become a lot murkier as wines are cut with the same wine from younger vintages......or something else altogether as the Belgian merchants typically did with brand new wine still in barrel.

About the only wine among the 74 that there was considerable concern over was the 1875, which was a Nicolas-bottled example. There were a few other bottles that had clearly been refreshed, some deftly and some well, less so - particularly those from the Belgian merchants though even a few of those showed quite well.

There is one other factor that bears mentioning (even if it is undoubtedly a bit immodest - apologies in advance). I have, to the best of my knowledge, the largest database that exists of older burgundy notes. If you define older burgundy as 25+ years of age then there are more than 2,500 individual notes (and probably three times that number of bottles therein); alternatively, if you define it as 50+ years, it is not quite 1,000 individual notes and all of them are 10 years old or less. Are there some fraudulent bottles therein? Undoubtedly. But when you have a solid standard of reference for most collectibles within a given region, you get better at assessing whether something is "consistent with the period and my experience". Infallible? Certainly not. A reasonably good guide? I think so.

For what it's worth.

Thanks to all and best,

Allen

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#117 Post by Keith Levenberg » September 23rd, 2009, 9:24 am

Allen,

Can't wait to read your book. When is it coming out?

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#118 Post by Tom Blach » September 23rd, 2009, 11:32 am

Thanks for the information, Allen. The Rodenstock story has rather poisoned things when it comes to accounts of many recent ultra-glamorous wine events, which caused me to wonder out loud whether there were to be difficulties with regard to this one. I just recently came across an old account by Jancis Robinson of a Rodenstock tasting of every notable vintage of Yquem in the presence of the Comte de Lur-Saluces himself which in retrospect seems to have been a most stunningly brilliant psychological manipulation of many of the greatest names in wine, and I'm delighted that this was clearly not the case here. I do think the whole scandal has been caused by people taking the pleasure of wine connoisseurship altogether too seriously, but unfortunately where money rears its head people inevitably get greedy.

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#119 Post by Owen Edwards » September 23rd, 2009, 11:44 am

Are we then convinced that every Rodenstock event was an absolute fraud? Obviously the crooked ones spoil the whole bunch, but you get my drift. Especially when suggesting Alexandre de Lur-Saluces was hoodwinked as to what Yquem tasted like.

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#120 Post by Claude Kolm » September 23rd, 2009, 12:04 pm

Owen Edwards wrote:Are we then convinced that every Rodenstock event was an absolute fraud? Obviously the crooked ones spoil the whole bunch, but you get my drift. Especially when suggesting Alexandre de Lur-Saluces was hoodwinked as to what Yquem tasted like.
Don't forget that no one was allowed to spit at the Rodenstock events. He could have served genuine wines until everyone was desensitized or worse and only then began to slip in a fake or two.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#121 Post by k s h i n » September 23rd, 2009, 12:14 pm

Claude Kolm wrote:
Owen Edwards wrote:Are we then convinced that every Rodenstock event was an absolute fraud? Obviously the crooked ones spoil the whole bunch, but you get my drift. Especially when suggesting Alexandre de Lur-Saluces was hoodwinked as to what Yquem tasted like.
Don't forget that no one was allowed to spit at the Rodenstock events. He could have served genuine wines until everyone was desensitized or worse and only then began to slip in a fake or two.
I think this was one of the reasons why Bob made his decision not to attend his tastings.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#122 Post by Allen Meadows » September 23rd, 2009, 12:20 pm

Tom Blach wrote:Thanks for the information, Allen. The Rodenstock story has rather poisoned things when it comes to accounts of many recent ultra-glamorous wine events, which caused me to wonder out loud whether there were to be difficulties with regard to this one. I just recently came across an old account by Jancis Robinson of a Rodenstock tasting of every notable vintage of Yquem in the presence of the Comte de Lur-Saluces himself which in retrospect seems to have been a most stunningly brilliant psychological manipulation of many of the greatest names in wine, and I'm delighted that this was clearly not the case here. I do think the whole scandal has been caused by people taking the pleasure of wine connoisseurship altogether too seriously, but unfortunately where money rears its head people inevitably get greedy.
Hi Tom,

Fair points all and I too agree that the Rodenstock tastings definitely caused all large tastings to become suspect and frankly it's good that the scrutiny is heightened.

However, in this particular case, as the book will detail, there were three of us involved in shepherding this tasting from its conception to its denouement five years later. Every aspect was under our control and backup bottles (from different sources) were available for most vintages (and often used). Moreover, some bottles (though not the majority) were sourced directly from the domaine so as to better control for both fraud and storage variability. Some older vintages came from the Doris Duke cellar sale and I believe there may have been a few bottles from the Chambon cellar Paris sale as well (I would have to check the records as each bottle was recorded with its provenace), which is about as rock solid a provenance as you're going to get short of the domaine itself.

Again, could we have been duped? Certainly. But given that both my friends are highly knowledgeable enthusiasts but have no connection to the wine trade in any form, there would have been no overt deceit.

In short, I strongly believe that what we did and the approach we took controlled as well as can be for what can be controlled.

Hi Keith,

Thank you for your interest and my best guess as to the release date is late spring, give or take a month. Assuming that Todd won't mind a commercial wine-related post, I will announce it here, or if there is a policy contravening such announcements, hopefully someone will mention that it's out. If you would like to be notified automatically when it's ready, here's the link: Click here: http://www.burghoundbooks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best to all,

Allen

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#123 Post by John Morris » September 23rd, 2009, 2:05 pm

Allen --

Thanks for all your thoughtful, detailed -- and patient -- posts here and on eBob. You've earned the respect you enjoy.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#124 Post by Tom Blach » September 23rd, 2009, 8:39 pm

The book looks very exciting, Allen. Will it be followed in due course by similar works on the other great villages?!

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#125 Post by Todd F r e n c h » September 23rd, 2009, 8:47 pm

Allen Meadows wrote: Hi Keith,

Thank you for your interest and my best guess as to the release date is late spring, give or take a month. Assuming that Todd won't mind a commercial wine-related post, I will announce it here, or if there is a policy contravening such announcements, hopefully someone will mention that it's out. If you would like to be notified automatically when it's ready, here's the link: Click here: http://www.burghoundbooks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best to all,

Allen
I don't mind, but when it is actually released, stick it on Commerce Corner.

Will you sell it through Amazon, for example?
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#126 Post by Gordon ZenMasterOfZin Ng » January 26th, 2011, 11:13 pm

John Morris wrote:Allen --

Thanks for all your thoughtful, detailed -- and patient -- posts here and on eBob. You've earned the respect you enjoy.
Hmm, as an ex-attorney, you don't seem to be very thorough, imo...allow me to explain.

Doesn't seem like Allen Meadows did anything more than come over here from his home on eBob, and complain. Some of it smacks of being rather disingenuous at best, imho. Kind of like Clinton defiantly telling the nation on Network-wide broadcast TV, shaking his left hand constantly, with semantics as his defense: "I did not have an inappropriate sexual relationship with that woman...blah, blah, blah" I don't even know what his reply to Kevin was, it's over on eBob apparently, so some of his comments make no sense at all here.

bump, Drvino didn't include a copy with a filing date like this link does:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Case# BC421581

...so, where's the beef? What happened to this case? Someone should know.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#127 Post by Gordon ZenMasterOfZin Ng » January 26th, 2011, 11:37 pm

Allen Meadows wrote:
Tom Blach wrote: However, in this particular case, as the book will detail, there were three of us involved in shepherding this tasting from its conception to its denouement five years later. Every aspect was under our control and backup bottles (from different sources) were available for most vintages (and often used). Moreover, some bottles (though not the majority) were sourced directly from the domaine so as to better control for both fraud and storage variability. Some older vintages came from the Doris Duke cellar sale and I believe there may have been a few bottles from the Chambon cellar Paris sale as well (I would have to check the records as each bottle was recorded with its provenace), which is about as rock solid a provenance as you're going to get short of the domaine itself.

Again, could we have been duped? Certainly. But given that both my friends are highly knowledgeable enthusiasts but have no connection to the wine trade in any form, there would have been no overt deceit.

In short, I strongly believe that what we did and the approach we took controlled as well as can be for what can be controlled.

Click here: http://www.burghoundbooks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best to all,

Allen
Perhaps, but could be just excuses also. So what are the names of these ""friends" that have "no connection to the wine trade" ? Wilf Jaeger, Eric Greenberg, Bipin Desai, Wolfgang Gruenduval (sp?) or Rob Rosiana? After all, Rudy K. was supposedly/allegedly Allen's "friend" also, according to John Kapon.

Some of Wolfgang's wines where imported into the USA by Bipin Desai, as Bipin has/had an import license, had/has an import company. I can't prove it, but I know someone who used to work for both Wolfgang (was flown into Switzerland to catalog the cellar for Acker's upcoming sale from that cellar) and Bipin who could testify as to those facts.

I'm sure with discovery we'll find out those names of clients that were lending Rudy K. money, most likely multimillionaire Rob Rosiana (aka Big Boy) as he bought plenty of Rudy K's wines in the "Cellar" auctions as well as likely others like the more recent Christie's auction of some older DRC's.

That Kapon winepr0n blog details so much of circumstantial nature related to these players like Big Boy. Consider the 1945 DRC Richebourg old vines Cepage sold at Christie's, now alleged to be from Rudy. Very likely, since only a few of those bottles come up for auction, that the 1945 DRC Richebourg old vines Cepage that Big Boy opened a few months later, was that bottle.

Certainly in discovery, more of the Billionaire Wine Club players that Rudy drink wines with in that inner circle could be deposed, might have info pertaining to the case...given Calif.'s broad discovery laws. Other billionaires have been named in part in Kapon's winepron blog (blogauvin.com curiously is now "missing" those entries???)

Do a Google search and you'll find Allen at the 'big lumber' Jayer Richebourg vertical tasting with Eric G(reenberg), Gordon (most likely billionaire wine enthusiast Gordon Getty), Rudy, and Jerry (most likely billionaire wine enthusiast Jerry Perenchio)

Burghound doesn't know who these 'big lumber' players are, doesn't attend those events??? really? I find that hard to believe. Sounds like more like, a 'reactionary' defensive posture from Meadows to me. Like Big Boy sez "Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink" ... anyone find anything stinking in what Allen is saying here?

Shall I got get some quotes...maybe I should.

With so many muti-millionaire/billionaire players in the big lumber stakes, they all have unlimited financial resources to have attorney's generate reams of documents during discovery. Billable hrs on this case could hit 8-figures, easily; without even generating any real useful information.

What about the court ordered pre-trial SC that is mandatory, what came of that?
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#128 Post by Jim Karegeannes » January 27th, 2011, 8:45 am

I know something! : http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/media- ... etly-fund/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder if it's the same Kochs

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#129 Post by dave cuneo » January 27th, 2011, 9:37 am

"Are we then convinced that every Rodenstock event was an absolute fraud? Obviously the crooked ones spoil the whole bunch, but you get my drift."

I read the Billionaire's Vinegar and there is no question in my mind that Meinhard Gorke (fake name = Hardy Rodenstock) was/is a sociopathic scam artist who faked EVERYTHING because that is how they work and that is what gives them pleasure. Fooling and leveraging Parker's and especially Broadbent's reputations probably made him orgasm. I would bet dollars to donuts that the cover story that he made a fortume managing rock bands is bullshit also. I have had some experience with these type people and they cannot do anything legally/morally/ethically as that does not satisfy their needs. EVERYTHING turns out to be a lie and then you wonder how you ever believed any of it. dc.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#130 Post by c fu » January 27th, 2011, 11:54 am

Gordon ZenMasterOfZin Ng wrote:
Allen Meadows wrote:
Tom Blach wrote: However, in this particular case, as the book will detail, there were three of us involved in shepherding this tasting from its conception to its denouement five years later. Every aspect was under our control and backup bottles (from different sources) were available for most vintages (and often used). Moreover, some bottles (though not the majority) were sourced directly from the domaine so as to better control for both fraud and storage variability. Some older vintages came from the Doris Duke cellar sale and I believe there may have been a few bottles from the Chambon cellar Paris sale as well (I would have to check the records as each bottle was recorded with its provenace), which is about as rock solid a provenance as you're going to get short of the domaine itself.

Again, could we have been duped? Certainly. But given that both my friends are highly knowledgeable enthusiasts but have no connection to the wine trade in any form, there would have been no overt deceit.

In short, I strongly believe that what we did and the approach we took controlled as well as can be for what can be controlled.

Click here: http://www.burghoundbooks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best to all,

Allen
Perhaps, but could be just excuses also. So what are the names of these ""friends" that have "no connection to the wine trade" ? Wilf Jaeger, Eric Greenberg, Bipin Desai, Wolfgang Gruenduval (sp?) or Rob Rosiana? After all, Rudy K. was supposedly/allegedly Allen's "friend" also, according to John Kapon.

Some of Wolfgang's wines where imported into the USA by Bipin Desai, as Bipin has/had an import license, had/has an import company. I can't prove it, but I know someone who used to work for both Wolfgang (was flown into Switzerland to catalog the cellar for Acker's upcoming sale from that cellar) and Bipin who could testify as to those facts.

I'm sure with discovery we'll find out those names of clients that were lending Rudy K. money, most likely multimillionaire Rob Rosiana (aka Big Boy) as he bought plenty of Rudy K's wines in the "Cellar" auctions as well as likely others like the more recent Christie's auction of some older DRC's.

That Kapon winepr0n blog details so much of circumstantial nature related to these players like Big Boy. Consider the 1945 DRC Richebourg old vines Cepage sold at Christie's, now alleged to be from Rudy. Very likely, since only a few of those bottles come up for auction, that the 1945 DRC Richebourg old vines Cepage that Big Boy opened a few months later, was that bottle.

Certainly in discovery, more of the Billionaire Wine Club players that Rudy drink wines with in that inner circle could be deposed, might have info pertaining to the case...given Calif.'s broad discovery laws. Other billionaires have been named in part in Kapon's winepron blog (blogauvin.com curiously is now "missing" those entries???)

Do a Google search and you'll find Allen at the 'big lumber' Jayer Richebourg vertical tasting with Eric G(reenberg), Gordon (most likely billionaire wine enthusiast Gordon Getty), Rudy, and Jerry (most likely billionaire wine enthusiast Jerry Perenchio)

Burghound doesn't know who these 'big lumber' players are, doesn't attend those events??? really? I find that hard to believe. Sounds like more like, a 'reactionary' defensive posture from Meadows to me. Like Big Boy sez "Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all stink" ... anyone find anything stinking in what Allen is saying here?

Shall I got get some quotes...maybe I should.

With so many muti-millionaire/billionaire players in the big lumber stakes, they all have unlimited financial resources to have attorney's generate reams of documents during discovery. Billable hrs on this case could hit 8-figures, easily; without even generating any real useful information.

What about the court ordered pre-trial SC that is mandatory, what came of that?
are you or were you an attorney in the state of california?
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#131 Post by k s h i n » January 27th, 2011, 12:52 pm

Gordon ZenMasterOfZin Ng wrote:
John Morris wrote:Allen --

Thanks for all your thoughtful, detailed -- and patient -- posts here and on eBob. You've earned the respect you enjoy.
Hmm, as an ex-attorney, you don't seem to be very thorough, imo...allow me to explain.

Doesn't seem like Allen Meadows did anything more than come over here from his home on eBob, and complain. Some of it smacks of being rather disingenuous at best, imho. Kind of like Clinton defiantly telling the nation on Network-wide broadcast TV, shaking his left hand constantly, with semantics as his defense: "I did not have an inappropriate sexual relationship with that woman...blah, blah, blah" I don't even know what his reply to Kevin was, it's over on eBob apparently, so some of his comments make no sense at all here.

bump, Drvino didn't include a copy with a filing date like this link does:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Case# BC421581

...so, where's the beef? What happened to this case? Someone should know.
If Feds can bail out GS, JPM and others we can let go on this issue.

Because one has a lot of $ that doesn’t mean that one has capable palate even decent palate. And those who have excellent palate, it is rare to find those with the means especially in this crazy wine market. I once taste the 29 La Mission Haut Brion that was oxidized yet some professional wine personnel were raving about the wine using appropriate descriptors such as tobacco, scorched earth and etc. Just move on.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#132 Post by Nathan V. » January 27th, 2011, 12:59 pm

Kevin Shin wrote: If Feds can bail out GS, JPM and others we can let go on this issue.

Because one has a lot of $ that doesn’t mean that one has capable palate even decent palate. And those who have excellent palate, it is rare to find those with the means especially in this crazy wine market. I once taste the 29 La Mission Haut Brion that was oxidized yet some professional wine personnel were raving about the wine using appropriate descriptors such as tobacco, scorched earth and etc. Just move on.
Exactly. I think the fetishistic treatment of old wine is mostly BS.
ITB-ish.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#133 Post by k s h i n » January 27th, 2011, 1:05 pm

Nathan V. wrote:
Kevin Shin wrote: If Feds can bail out GS, JPM and others we can let go on this issue.

Because one has a lot of $ that doesn’t mean that one has capable palate even decent palate. And those who have excellent palate, it is rare to find those with the means especially in this crazy wine market. I once taste the 29 La Mission Haut Brion that was oxidized yet some professional wine personnel were raving about the wine using appropriate descriptors such as tobacco, scorched earth and etc. Just move on.
Exactly. I think the fetishistic treatment of old wine is mostly BS.
Nathan,
Great old bottles are truly something else in all fairness. It just that sometimes I doubt how many wine lovers really have capable palate and experience.

I personally think that Rodenstock is a genius if he was able to counterfeit the wines. He should start his own NV blends and charge decent amount, eg a la 1961 great crus Pomerol. I would certainly buy them for sure.
Kevin
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Koch sues Rudy K

#134 Post by WvanGorp » January 27th, 2011, 1:54 pm

You mention "broad discovery laws in California" but isn't this a suit filed in federal court?
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#135 Post by M.Kaplan » January 27th, 2011, 2:08 pm

Gordon ZenMasterOfZin Ng wrote:
<snip>Doesn't seem like Allen Meadows did anything more than come over here from his home on eBob, and complain<snip>.
Seems to me that you are confusing Allen Meadows, Burghound and former finance executive, with someone else...
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#136 Post by c fu » January 27th, 2011, 2:28 pm

WvanGorp wrote:You mention "broad discovery laws in California" but isn't this a suit filed in federal court?
i think we can ignore anything he says
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#137 Post by Chris Blum » January 27th, 2011, 2:59 pm

Am I missing something? Is there anything new with this case or am I just watching an argument* or lawyers


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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#138 Post by Eric LeVine » January 27th, 2011, 3:28 pm

M.Kaplan wrote:
Gordon ZenMasterOfZin Ng wrote:
<snip>Doesn't seem like Allen Meadows did anything more than come over here from his home on eBob, and complain<snip>.
Seems to me that you are confusing Allen Meadows, Burghound and former finance executive, with someone else...
Yeah, I was confused by that as well. Allen used to post a little on eRP, but that was certainly not his home.

And frankly, when the topic came up of Allen attending dinners where fake wines were served, I felt like his answers were a lot more forthright than anything else I have ever heard from Bob or other on the same topic.
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#139 Post by Berry Crawford » January 27th, 2011, 3:32 pm

M.Kaplan wrote:
Gordon ZenMasterOfZin Ng wrote:
<snip>Doesn't seem like Allen Meadows did anything more than come over here from his home on eBob, and complain<snip>.
Seems to me that you are confusing Allen Meadows, Burghound and former finance executive, with someone else...
Some Zen master

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#140 Post by Chris Blum » January 27th, 2011, 10:27 pm

Im legitimately interested...is there some new development?
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#141 Post by Chris Blum » January 27th, 2011, 10:38 pm

....Aside from this:

http://www.decanter.com/news/wine-news/ ... ne-company" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Well, wine only turns into alcohol if you let it sit" -- Lucille Bluth
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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#142 Post by Derek Mo » January 27th, 2011, 11:34 pm

I've heard from a few people recently that inventory is being sold to Singapore retail shops... really annoying if these guys are still turning a blind eye to this.

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Re: Koch sues Rudy K

#143 Post by Jürgen Steinke » January 28th, 2011, 6:02 am

To me it´s important to know what motive someone has to invite others drinking famous wines. I believe some people do exist who want nothing as to share great wine with other people knowledged and in love with the stuff. Others may exist who do it for ego reasons. It´s probably something similar when a teenager ask for an outograph from a pop star. But if somebody invite wine writer or wine critics it´s quite prpbable that some kind of marketing plays a role.

Since the Parker/Rodenstock thing every wine critic should ask himself if it´s wise to participate in wine dinners and write about them afterwards. That is my opinion. I am with Wilfred here. The risk is simply too high for being used by sombody with a hidden agenda.

I see a difference if somebody tastes at a Chateau or a wine maker. Those wines are most likely no fakes and they didn´t travel or were mishandled somewhere. And it´s neccessary to develop experience. I see no other way. With the exception if a daughter or a son of a billionair starts a job as a winecritic and the father sponsors the education with tons of money.

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