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Ken Rudman
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#1 Post by Ken Rudman » April 16th, 2013, 6:45 am

I know there are some other bakers out there.

I've been keeping a Flickr photoset going.

Here's my first try at Pain a l'Ancienne from the Peter Reinhart book. Still need to work on the "shaping", but they taste amazing.

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#2 Post by Ken Rudman » April 16th, 2013, 6:47 am

This semolina bread was really tasty, and very good dipped in EVOO.

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#3 Post by Mel Hill » April 16th, 2013, 6:57 am

I've got a photo set on Flickr of my yeast related photos
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mh95149/se ... 419286155/

Here is one of my favorites
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#4 Post by Ken Rudman » April 16th, 2013, 9:02 am

Nice shot, Mel. What kind of bread is that?

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#5 Post by Mel Hill » April 16th, 2013, 9:22 am

50% whole wheat 50% bread flour, no knead style
645 gr flour
525 gr water
12 g salt
1.5 gr yeast
18 hr first rise
reshape
2 hr second rise
450˚for 30 in a covered pot
15 min uncovered

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#6 Post by Ken Rudman » April 16th, 2013, 9:29 am

Mel Hill wrote:50% whole wheat 50% bread flour, no knead style
645 gr flour
525 gr water
12 g salt
1.5 gr yeast
18 hr first rise
reshape
2 hr second rise
450˚for 30 in a covered pot
15 min uncovered
Cool. Do you preheat the pot, or put it into the hot oven with the loaf inside?

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#7 Post by Mel Hill » April 16th, 2013, 9:34 am

Yes pot in oven for about 90 min

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#8 Post by Scott Sutherland » April 16th, 2013, 12:20 pm

Mel Hill wrote:50% whole wheat 50% bread flour, no knead style
645 gr flour
525 gr water
12 g salt
1.5 gr yeast
18 hr first rise
reshape
2 hr second rise
450˚for 30 in a covered pot
15 min uncovered
By no knead -- do you mean the Mark Bittman/Jim Lahey type recipe? If so, I'm ecstatic because I love that bread and I've been trying very hard to find a partial wheatversion.

Tell me it's so :)

If it is so, then I just need to switch my scale from oz to grams. But if that's really 1.5 grams of yeast I might need to hit the chemistry department for an ultra precise scale


Scott

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#9 Post by Mel Hill » April 16th, 2013, 1:13 pm

Yep this is the no knead style bread using 50% WW (320gr)
I mixed this batch this morning at 9am and this photo is 6 hours later
And the rise has been over 130% started with dough at the 1L mark.
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#10 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » April 16th, 2013, 2:43 pm

What kind of pot?
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#11 Post by Mel Hill » April 16th, 2013, 2:55 pm

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:What kind of pot?
About any Dutch oven will do. I've got a calphalon 8.5 quart dutch oven
That works for the size loaf I'm making.

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#12 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » April 16th, 2013, 2:56 pm

Excellent. I have Mauviel and le Creuset Dutch ovens of that size. Will give it a go this weekend to see which on does better.

Do you oil the inside before putting in dough?
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#13 Post by CWun » April 16th, 2013, 3:10 pm

I dabbled for several months making baguettes: around 70% hydration, loooooong cool/cold ferments. My biggest problem was trying to score the top. My sharp knives would just "drag" on the dough surface and barely score it. The resulting bread while delicious has the signs of bad scoring: thickish crust (from lack of expansion) and smaller than expected air holes. Any suggestions on scoring?
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#14 Post by Bill Tex Landreth » April 16th, 2013, 3:24 pm

CWun wrote:I dabbled for several months making baguettes: around 70% hydration, loooooong cool/cold ferments. My biggest problem was trying to score the top. My sharp knives would just "drag" on the dough surface and barely score it. The resulting bread while delicious has the signs of bad scoring: thickish crust (from lack of expansion) and smaller than expected air holes. Any suggestions on scoring?
Razor blade.
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#15 Post by mike pobega » April 16th, 2013, 3:27 pm

One from the past.
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#16 Post by Mel Hill » April 16th, 2013, 4:09 pm

@Tex no oil used here.... I do the final hour of the second rise on a square of parchment and bake the bread on it.
Makes it way easier to get it into the Dutch oven. Both hours of the second rise have the dough under a large bowl so they don't dry out host much.

As far as scoring goes I think that the combo of creating a taunt "skin" while shaping the round loaf and the light dusting of flour creates surface that is not going to catch on the blade. I do my scoring with a carbon steel 11 inch slicing knife that I hone just before using.

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#17 Post by Scott Sutherland » April 16th, 2013, 6:54 pm

Mel

Same cooking temps as the Bittman/Lahey recipe?

I'm going to fire this up soon. So excited.

Thanks

Scott

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#18 Post by Mel Hill » April 16th, 2013, 7:07 pm

Yep 450 in a cover pot for 30 then 15 uncovered same temp. If you are in to it, internal temp just a shade over 200 YMMV

The number I quoted above are for a larger loaf then the NYT version. IIRC my loaf is either 1.5 of their's or 2x. We were just eating it too quickly and I wanted to,lessen my workload.

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#19 Post by CWun » April 16th, 2013, 7:39 pm

cooks illustrated has a version of no-knead (or barely any knead) bread that is a variation on the bittman/nytimes version. I'll dig it up. I do remember that one of the "secret" ingredients was a dash of beer (lager or such).
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#20 Post by Ken Rudman » April 16th, 2013, 7:55 pm

Bill Tex Landreth wrote:
CWun wrote:I dabbled for several months making baguettes: around 70% hydration, loooooong cool/cold ferments. My biggest problem was trying to score the top. My sharp knives would just "drag" on the dough surface and barely score it. The resulting bread while delicious has the signs of bad scoring: thickish crust (from lack of expansion) and smaller than expected air holes. Any suggestions on scoring?
Razor blade.
I made a lamé by taping together two bamboo skewers (tips cut off) and threading a Feather DE razor blade (see the shaving thread) so that it's curved. (I'll post a picture if you like.)

Works a treat, as they say in the UK. For really soft dough, like the Pain á l'Ancienne, which has no surface tension, I did dip the blade in water and make sure to use the corner of the blade only.

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#21 Post by brianmcbrearty » April 16th, 2013, 8:57 pm

Mel,
The parchment paper right into the dutch oven idea? I am thrilled that you shared that one. Thanks!

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#22 Post by CWun » April 17th, 2013, 12:48 am

Ken Rudman wrote:
Bill Tex Landreth wrote:
CWun wrote:I dabbled for several months making baguettes: around 70% hydration, loooooong cool/cold ferments. My biggest problem was trying to score the top. My sharp knives would just "drag" on the dough surface and barely score it. The resulting bread while delicious has the signs of bad scoring: thickish crust (from lack of expansion) and smaller than expected air holes. Any suggestions on scoring?
Razor blade.
I made a lamé by taping together two bamboo skewers (tips cut off) and threading a Feather DE razor blade (see the shaving thread) so that it's curved. (I'll post a picture if you like.)

Works a treat, as they say in the UK. For really soft dough, like the Pain á l'Ancienne, which has no surface tension, I did dip the blade in water and make sure to use the corner of the blade only.
Thanks I'll try that. I have a crapload of DE blades sitting in my closet.
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#23 Post by Barry P » April 17th, 2013, 8:50 am

Love the no-knead recipe. But the problem I've had is that the bread typically doesn't taste very good. I've never been able to find a dry active yeast that lent much flavor to the bread. So, instead, I do a modified sourdough/Lahey.

First, buy the sourdough starter (which is really a combo of yeast and bacteria) here: http://www.sourdo.com/home/cultures/ori ... francisco/

Second, activate starter as instructed.

Third, follow the Lahey recipe but: i) do away with the dry active yeast; and ii) sub the 1 and 2/3 C water for 1 C water and 1 C proofed sourdough starter.

You get the same ease of the no-knead recipe but much better tasting bread.
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#24 Post by Ken Rudman » April 17th, 2013, 9:49 am

Barry P wrote:Love the no-knead recipe. But the problem I've had is that the bread typically doesn't taste very good. I've never been able to find a dry active yeast that lent much flavor to the bread. So, instead, I do a modified sourdough/Lahey.

First, buy the sourdough starter (which is really a combo of yeast and bacteria) here: http://www.sourdo.com/home/cultures/ori ... francisco/

Second, activate starter as instructed.

Third, follow the Lahey recipe but: i) do away with the dry active yeast; and ii) sub the 1 and 2/3 C water for 1 C water and 1 C proofed sourdough starter.

You get the same ease of the no-knead recipe but much better tasting bread.
I don't know the "no-knead" recipes, but Peter Reinhart in his book is very clear that the goal of the long, cold ferment is to allow the enzymes in the dough to create the flavor, while using as little yeast as possible in order to avoid having the yeast impart its own. I use instant yeast rather than active dry yeast since it's much simpler to use and more concentrated, allowing you to use last by volume. You might try that, too.

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#25 Post by brianmcbrearty » April 17th, 2013, 10:00 am

I'd say that's the no-knead philosophy as well. And I usually think the flavor is fantastic. Surprised to hear that after 18+ hours, you're not getting good flavor, Barry.

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#26 Post by Ken Rudman » April 17th, 2013, 10:13 am

brianmcbrearty wrote:I'd say that's the no-knead philosophy as well. And I usually think the flavor is fantastic. Surprised to hear that after 18+ hours, you're not getting good flavor, Barry.
What kind of flour are you using? Perhaps it's not malted? Flours without malt are pretty tasteless.

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#27 Post by Barry P » April 17th, 2013, 11:43 am

Well, I'm using King Arthur Bread Flour (which has the malt I believe). I get a pretty neutral flavor, although I think my first rise is usually only 12 (not 18) hours. My second rise is two hours. So maybe my first rise should be longer.

In any event, the sourdough version of of the no-knead is really great and I've been really pleased with it.
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#28 Post by timmy roos » April 17th, 2013, 3:23 pm

Barry P wrote:Well, I'm using King Arthur Bread Flour (which has the malt I believe). I get a pretty neutral flavor, although I think my first rise is usually only 12 (not 18) hours. My second rise is two hours. So maybe my first rise should be longer.

In any event, the sourdough version of of the no-knead is really great and I've been really pleased with it.
I havent made it in a while but the no knead sourdough is the most bang for your buck bread recipe I know. I too use King Arthur. In europe the flour comes in numbered grades, where does one find these in the states or what is their equivalent?
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#29 Post by MBerto » April 17th, 2013, 4:37 pm

I believe this are both 100% white breads, basically a variation on the Lahey method. Exact recipes are from Forkish's "Flour Water Salt Yeast". I've been very satisfied with them. He doesn't call for you to score the tops, rather after the secondary fermentation but before proofing, you shape the loeaves into a ball and drag them over a very lightly floured counter, which creates enough resistance to tighten the skin. You then proof for an hour and invert the proof loaves into the heated dutch over to get the "rustic" look.

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#30 Post by Ken Rudman » April 17th, 2013, 5:41 pm

timmy roos wrote:
Barry P wrote:Well, I'm using King Arthur Bread Flour (which has the malt I believe). I get a pretty neutral flavor, although I think my first rise is usually only 12 (not 18) hours. My second rise is two hours. So maybe my first rise should be longer.

In any event, the sourdough version of of the no-knead is really great and I've been really pleased with it.
I havent made it in a while but the no knead sourdough is the most bang for your buck bread recipe I know. I too use King Arthur. In europe the flour comes in numbered grades, where does one find these in the states or what is their equivalent?
The numbered grades (e.g. 55, 65) refer to ash content, rather than protein content as is common here. I have found a couple of references to equivalencies here in books like Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice.

Here's a really interesting thread comparing the two: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10182/ ... 23-formula

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#31 Post by Mel Hill » April 17th, 2013, 5:54 pm

here is what I do from the first rise...
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#32 Post by Ken Rudman » April 24th, 2013, 10:37 pm

Have been building up a new starter, following Reinhart's formula. Last night of the seed starter, then tomorrow I can start getting the barm going. I want to bake a Poilane-style miche next week. Anybody have any particular favorite starters you use regularly? Other than converting some of the starter over to be rye flour based, what else can I do?

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#33 Post by G. Newman » April 28th, 2013, 8:43 am

Olive bread using the Lahey method.
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#34 Post by Ken Rudman » April 28th, 2013, 12:13 pm

Nice one!

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#35 Post by Ken Rudman » May 5th, 2013, 6:35 am

Made a pain au levain with 10% dark rye flour. Really takes a long time to proof, even though the starter is very active. Tried a few different shapes:

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#36 Post by Ken Rudman » May 5th, 2013, 6:36 am

Last week I tried the Poilane style miche (whole wheat) but made it smaller, only 2# instead of 4.

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#37 Post by CWun » May 6th, 2013, 8:55 am

In Paris at the moment and trekked around to find more top baguettes. On this particular visit I snagged "Au Levain d'Antan" (2011 winner of the Paris baguette competition) and La Petite Marquise (2012 6th place). Both places are pretty awesome, in the current vogue of long and wet ferments. DON'T make the mistake of just ordering a "baguette"; one has to specify the baguette "Tradition" or "ancienne" in order to get the better bread.

Lots of good baguettes and mediocre baguettes in this fair city, but when you get a good one, you go "wow" and you take notice.
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#38 Post by Ken Rudman » May 6th, 2013, 11:08 am

Very jealous, Cary. The pain a l'ancienne I have baked from the Reinhart book is great, I can't wait for my next trip to try the real thing from Phillipe Gosselin.

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#39 Post by CWun » May 6th, 2013, 1:45 pm

Gosselin makes a great baguette a l'ancienne. When I went to Paris in mid 2011, I ate one and some more by myself and brought one back home for the wife.
I had a Kayser baguette the same trip and while good, I preferred the Gosselin one more.
In the 7e next to rue Cler is Pain d'Epis, which had a good "baguette royale". It placed #9 in the 2009 competition.

Leaving back for home tomorrow morning. Bringing back two Antan baguettes, a buckwheat bread from La Petite Marquise, and if I wake up early enough tomorrow morning another one of their baguette "tradition".
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#40 Post by Bruce Leiser_owitz » May 10th, 2013, 1:21 pm

Whole wheat honey bread.

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#41 Post by jimmie wellman » May 10th, 2013, 1:27 pm

Bruce Leiserowitz wrote:Whole wheat honey bread.

Bruce
Ummmm! I can almost imagine tasting it with cold unsalted butter then sprinkled with Maldon salt.

I'll bet that makes great toast!
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#42 Post by Bruce Leiser_owitz » May 10th, 2013, 2:38 pm

jimmie wellman wrote:
Bruce Leiserowitz wrote:Whole wheat honey bread.

Bruce
Ummmm! I can almost imagine tasting it with cold unsalted butter then sprinkled with Maldon salt.

I'll bet that makes great toast!
+1 on the toast!

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#43 Post by Ken Rudman » May 10th, 2013, 3:18 pm

Looks great, Bruce. I love a nice toast bread.

The other day I made this sunflower seed rye sourdough. Not thrilled with the aesthetics, but it was super tasty:

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Sunflower seed rye by Ruddy, on Flickr

I have three loaves of Jewish deli rye in the oven right now, and it's starting to smell awesome, with lots of onion and caraway seeds... just bought 50# of white rye flour (otherwise hard to find) and I'm trying to make a dent in it. :-)

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#44 Post by Bruce Leiser_owitz » May 10th, 2013, 4:23 pm

Ken Rudman wrote:Looks great, Bruce. I love a nice toast bread.

The other day I made this sunflower seed rye sourdough. Not thrilled with the aesthetics, but it was super tasty:

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Sunflower seed rye by Ruddy, on Flickr
Those look really dense/chewy. Are they, and if so, is that how they are supposed to turn out?

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#45 Post by Kenny H » May 10th, 2013, 9:50 pm

Ken Rudman wrote:Looks great, Bruce. I love a nice toast bread.

The other day I made this sunflower seed rye sourdough. Not thrilled with the aesthetics, but it was super tasty:

Image
Sunflower seed rye by Ruddy, on Flickr

I have three loaves of Jewish deli rye in the oven right now, and it's starting to smell awesome, with lots of onion and caraway seeds... just bought 50# of white rye flour (otherwise hard to find) and I'm trying to make a dent in it. :-)
Rye sourdough? Yes please. For whatever reason, not a caraway fan which is odd because I like everything. You are a machine, I did not know this about your baking thing. My wife bakes, I am the cook. I just wish more often her baking wasn't cupcakes and cookies because the bread is insane-o. I die and go to heaven with a nice long wet fermented dinner roll.
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#46 Post by Ken Rudman » May 10th, 2013, 10:38 pm

Bruce Leiserowitz wrote:
Ken Rudman wrote:Looks great, Bruce. I love a nice toast bread.

The other day I made this sunflower seed rye sourdough. Not thrilled with the aesthetics, but it was super tasty:

Image
Sunflower seed rye by Ruddy, on Flickr
Those look really dense/chewy. Are they, and if so, is that how they are supposed to turn out?

Bruce
I think I got a little less rise than I expected, but the crust is nicely chewy while the crumb is quite tender. Not quite sure exactly how it's supposed to turn out, but I think I should have let the initial ferment go a bit longer, or maybe it was the final proof that wasn't long enough. Very tasty, however.

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#47 Post by Ken Rudman » May 10th, 2013, 10:42 pm

Kenny H wrote:
Ken Rudman wrote:Looks great, Bruce. I love a nice toast bread.

The other day I made this sunflower seed rye sourdough. Not thrilled with the aesthetics, but it was super tasty:

Image
Sunflower seed rye by Ruddy, on Flickr

I have three loaves of Jewish deli rye in the oven right now, and it's starting to smell awesome, with lots of onion and caraway seeds... just bought 50# of white rye flour (otherwise hard to find) and I'm trying to make a dent in it. :-)
Rye sourdough? Yes please. For whatever reason, not a caraway fan which is odd because I like everything. You are a machine, I did not know this about your baking thing. My wife bakes, I am the cook. I just wish more often her baking wasn't cupcakes and cookies because the bread is insane-o. I die and go to heaven with a nice long wet fermented dinner roll.
The caraway is probably a cultural thing. For me, it just goes with a nice soft rye. This one, however, had the sunflower seeds plus rye "chop" which is just small chunks of cracked rye that I made in an old coffee grinder from the rye berries.

I've got a little more time on my hands right now than I'd like, so I'm going a bit nuts with the bread. It's something I've always wanted to explore a bit.

Here's the deli rye. Very, very soft and airy--can't wait to try some with pastrami... Next time, I will make with the traditional cornmeal crust, too. This has both a starter and yeast. And there are sauteed onions in the starter, which is kind of wacky, but tastes great.

Image
Jewish deli rye by Ruddy, on Flickr

And, the crumb shot:

Image
Deli rye by Ruddy, on Flickr

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Ken Rudman
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#48 Post by Ken Rudman » May 11th, 2013, 10:44 am


R A Rowe
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#49 Post by R A Rowe » May 11th, 2013, 10:51 am

Ken, that looks amazing. What kind of mustard do you use?
ITB

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Ken Rudman
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#50 Post by Ken Rudman » May 11th, 2013, 1:28 pm

That's some spicy honey mustard from Trader Joe's. Nothing fancy.

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