Blue Hill at Stone Barns: Eater’s Not so nice take.

Mark_Golodetz · July 7, 2022, 4:14am

Eater just published a couple of long articles on BHSB. It is likely to damage and possibly kill the restaurant. I live in Pocantico Hills, a couple of miles from the restaurant, and have been a fairly regular customer over the years. Less so lately; one of the reasons was that you could not go there for a meal, you had to attend the Farm to Table performance. Interesting once a year, annoying multiple times. But there is a lot more in the article; and some charges are very nasty. A shame as it is a very special place.

Dan_Hammer · July 7, 2022, 4:29am

My wife and her brother had dinner there a number of years ago. Her take > Overrated. Dan Barber sounds like a psychopath.

Sean_Haggerty · July 7, 2022, 1:15pm

yikes

Mark_Golodetz · July 7, 2022, 1:46pm

Complicated, driven but far from a psychopath. In comparison to some chefs I know, he is probably well below average, but not at the bottom.

There is much to admire in what he has done, and I thought the article a bit of a hatchet job. Some of the complaints were trivial, some very serious. Not to downplay the rape scenario, the victim did everything wrong, and Blue Hill should have made him go to the police immediately. No way should this have been an internal investigation. The other thing that spooked was the vegetarian switch. Neither good or necessary, and a product of the messaging. They really needed to tone it down, or bifurcate to customers who want it or not.

As I said, there is much to admire. Whole animal butchery was there, but barely on the radar when he started. Farm to table was a little more accepted but still slightly fringe. He certainly was a strong part of the messaging, and if part of the underlying was misleading, it was a small percentage. I am a little puzzled by the 70 plus hour work week, as the restaurant is closed Mondays and Tuesdays, and I don’t think the kitchen staff comes in on those days. It is certainly possible, but not easy.

On the plus side, the food was good, the wine list superb, middling price for a restaurant. One of my other peeves was far too many vegetable courses, mostly early on with filet of carrot, on the fifth course had us begging for meat.

RyanC · July 7, 2022, 2:44pm

Complicated, driven but far from a psychopath. In comparison to some chefs I know, he is probably well below average, but not at the bottom.

There is much to admire in what he has done, and I thought the article a bit of a hatchet job. Some of the complaints were trivial, some very serious. Not to downplay the rape scenario, the victim did everything wrong, and Blue Hill should have made him go to the police immediately. No way should this have been an internal investigation. The other thing that spooked was the vegetarian switch. Neither good or necessary, and a product of the messaging. They really needed to tone it down, or bifurcate to customers who want it or not.

As I said, there is much to admire. Whole animal butchery was there, but barely on the radar when he started. Farm to table was a little more accepted but still slightly fringe. He certainly was a strong part of the messaging, and if part of the underlying was misleading, it was a small percentage. I am a little puzzled by the 70 plus hour work week, as the restaurant is closed Mondays and Tuesdays, and I don’t think the kitchen staff comes in on those days. It is certainly possible, but not easy.

On the plus side, the food was good, the wine list superb, middling price for a restaurant. One of my other peeves was far too many vegetable courses, mostly early on with filet of carrot, on the fifth course had us begging for meat.

The article is a total hatchet job, and a pretty weak one IMO. I also hate how it blurs the lines. The rape issue obviously is the height of seriousness and one for the authorities. But the stories of Barber yelling and the intense environment dovetails with a lot of what I’ve read about scores of high-performing kitchens everywhere. Doesn’t make it appropriate, but it also doesn’t make BHSB an outlier. And I thought the complaints about the narrative and the food itself were pretty bland. My takeaway was that BHSB really has done interesting things and is at most guilty of at times over-selling them or, as the article says, “cutting corners.” If that’s the standard, I don’t know that there are many businesses–much less many restaurants–that could survive scrutiny.

CFu · July 7, 2022, 2:56pm

Complicated, driven but far from a psychopath. In comparison to some chefs I know, he is probably well below average, but not at the bottom.

There is much to admire in what he has done, and I thought the article a bit of a hatchet job. Some of the complaints were trivial, some very serious. Not to downplay the rape scenario, the victim did everything wrong, and Blue Hill should have made him go to the police immediately. No way should this have been an internal investigation. The other thing that spooked was the vegetarian switch. Neither good or necessary, and a product of the messaging. They really needed to tone it down, or bifurcate to customers who want it or not.

As I said, there is much to admire. Whole animal butchery was there, but barely on the radar when he started. Farm to table was a little more accepted but still slightly fringe. He certainly was a strong part of the messaging, and if part of the underlying was misleading, it was a small percentage. I am a little puzzled by the 70 plus hour work week, as the restaurant is closed Mondays and Tuesdays, and I don’t think the kitchen staff comes in on those days. It is certainly possible, but not easy.

On the plus side, the food was good, the wine list superb, middling price for a restaurant. One of my other peeves was far too many vegetable courses, mostly early on with filet of carrot, on the fifth course had us begging for meat.

The article is a total hatchet job, and a pretty weak one IMO. I also hate how it blurs the lines. The rape issue obviously is the height of seriousness and one for the authorities. But the stories of Barber yelling and the intense environment dovetails with a lot of what I’ve read about scores of high-performing kitchens everywhere. Doesn’t make it appropriate, but it also doesn’t make BHSB an outlier. And I thought the complaints about the narrative and the food itself were pretty bland. My takeaway was that BHSB really has done interesting things and is at most guilty of at times over-selling them or, as the article says, “cutting corners.” If that’s the standard, I don’t know that there are many businesses–much less many restaurants–that could survive scrutiny.

Eater is trying to sensationalist “journalism”. They did a similar piece on Jordan Kahn in Los Angeles and it fell on deaf ears. Imagine that much time spent and words typed and your editor doesn’t ever question what the end impact really is

Barry_L_i_p_t_o_n · July 8, 2022, 2:50am

Never at Stone Barn but at Blue Hill in the village, asked is there anything I don’t like.

No duck please.

They served me duck because, per the waitress, you’ve chef said 'You’ve never had Dan Barber’s duck"

I did, took a bite, sent it back and never went back.

T_Williams · July 8, 2022, 10:51am

I found the article very scatter brained and throwing all the superficial punches it could to make BHSB look “bad”. It didn’t evoke any emotion or make me feel like something needs to change. It just feels like a hit piece.

It would be much more effective journalism to write a long form piece on just the rape incident and go in depth on getting the victim justice. Or maybe a long form article on the vegetarian swaps and just how pervasive it is. Those being the only two serious issues brought to light in the article.

The low pay, long hours, non dietary restriction swaps, and angry chef punches in the article could be said about 10,000 different restaurants and aren’t new or unique phenomenon to BHSB. I’m not even in the industry anymore and I know what people who work there sign up for, anyone who ACTUALLY signs up to work there and is shocked is either living under a rock or delusional.

I will say that Dan Barber does not get a free pass from me for having anger issues “because that’s how I was brought up in the industry”. That’s not an acceptable excuse. There are myriad studies showing that that style of management is not very effective at building a high performing team. The way he acknowledged and then dismissed his problems on Chefs Table was a big enough turn off that BHSB got struck from our list of restaurants to patronize.

Sean_Haggerty · July 8, 2022, 2:31pm

Complicated, driven but far from a psychopath. In comparison to some chefs I know, he is probably well below average, but not at the bottom.

There is much to admire in what he has done, and I thought the article a bit of a hatchet job. Some of the complaints were trivial, some very serious. Not to downplay the rape scenario, the victim did everything wrong, and Blue Hill should have made him go to the police immediately. No way should this have been an internal investigation. The other thing that spooked was the vegetarian switch. Neither good or necessary, and a product of the messaging. They really needed to tone it down, or bifurcate to customers who want it or not.

As I said, there is much to admire. Whole animal butchery was there, but barely on the radar when he started. Farm to table was a little more accepted but still slightly fringe. He certainly was a strong part of the messaging, and if part of the underlying was misleading, it was a small percentage. I am a little puzzled by the 70 plus hour work week, as the restaurant is closed Mondays and Tuesdays, and I don’t think the kitchen staff comes in on those days. It is certainly possible, but not easy.

On the plus side, the food was good, the wine list superb, middling price for a restaurant. One of my other peeves was far too many vegetable courses, mostly early on with filet of carrot, on the fifth course had us begging for meat.

The article is a total hatchet job, and a pretty weak one IMO. I also hate how it blurs the lines. The rape issue obviously is the height of seriousness and one for the authorities. But the stories of Barber yelling and the intense environment dovetails with a lot of what I’ve read about scores of high-performing kitchens everywhere. Doesn’t make it appropriate, but it also doesn’t make BHSB an outlier. And I thought the complaints about the narrative and the food itself were pretty bland. My takeaway was that BHSB really has done interesting things and is at most guilty of at times over-selling them or, as the article says, “cutting corners.” If that’s the standard, I don’t know that there are many businesses–much less many restaurants–that could survive scrutiny.

Eater is trying to sensationalist “journalism”. They did a similar piece on Jordan Kahn in Los Angeles and it fell on deaf ears. Imagine that much time spent and words typed and your editor doesn’t ever question what the end impact really is

Ever since Vox Media bought out Eater, its become a bit more like the new Vice of the food industry.
Would rather they stick to food, travel and recipes. Not accusations that haven’t even played out in court.

Scott_G_r_u_n_e_r · July 8, 2022, 3:21pm

None of which is or should be OK, but BHSB has built up this sainthood persona of being better, being sustainable, being holier than thou, and being a model that should be copied across the industry.

Whether well written or not, the point of the article (to me) is not just “the emperor has no clothes” about Blue Hill, but to call out that here is a restaurant that was supposed to be better, and at the end of the day is plagued by the same shitty culture, lies, and workforce abuses as plagues much of the industry. This is and continues to be a problem in the restaurant industry and diners should be aware and ask for change.

ybarselah · July 8, 2022, 3:45pm

some rather disturbing takes in this thread.

some thoughts:

disclaimer; i’ve been invited to at least 2 events at blue hill restaurants that i didn’t pay for. further, i’ve dined many, many times at their restaurants and have generally loved my experiences (VIP? probably. Single-Udder VIP? Unknown!). By far the top was dining on the same night - and next to - the Obamas on their first date night in the city after being elected. It was also our first date night after having our daughter earlier that Spring. (brought a 1989 Leroy Corton - delicious).
Dan Barber is - without qualification - a generational talent. And as has been noted here, if not single-handedly, a driving force for what we all now take for granted as farm-to-table and all the other source- and seasonal-based eating that’s so ubiquitous that it has become cliche. His contributions here are important and undeniable.
Related to #2, chef Barber has never been shy about this; he’s a Zealot. In most ways, that’s good - an “overnight success” that actually takes 20 years requires a zealot.
Watch the Chef’s table episode from 2015. He acknowledges (some of) his bad behavior/temper. The fact that other chefs do this to the point of normalcy is not an excuse. It’s barely a reason. It’s awful, always has been, and that cuppupance is deserved. We should try to be better over time, not worse. Do standards change? Of course, but no one is grandfathered in.
“But why are they picking on him? Everyone does this!” - because of the above! He has - rightfully in most instances - held himself and his restaurants in the highest regard; examples to emulate (he says as much in the chef’s table ep); a benchmark and standard. It’s therefore more important / impactful in how he runs those businesses. Further, through their PR / crisis management teams - he/they admitted to lying to diners about ingredients, etc. There is not possible excuse for this. Does the punishment fit the “crime?” - i don’t know. But to quote Vincent Vega: “Antwan probably didn’t expect Marsellus to react like he did, but he had to expect a reaction.”

Long way of saying; it’s okay to hold two seemingly contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time, which actually aren’t: He’s a great and important chef AND has presided over a system that was abusive (to say the least) and lied to his customers.

Philosophically, we can debate whether this is the deal society has made with certain individuals; must we accept bad behaviour and bad outcomes in exchange for greatness? I don’t know. I think about it a lot though because it comes up often in all industries.

Sean_Haggerty · July 8, 2022, 4:33pm

some rather disturbing takes in this thread.

some thoughts:

disclaimer; i’ve been invited to at least 2 events at blue hill restaurants that i didn’t pay for. further, i’ve dined many, many times at their restaurants and have generally loved my experiences (VIP? probably. Single-Udder VIP? Unknown!). By far the top was dining on the same night - and next to - the Obamas on their first date night in the city after being elected. It was also our first date night after having our daughter earlier that Spring. (brought a 1989 Leroy Corton - delicious).

Dan Barber is - without qualification - a generational talent. And as has been noted here, if not single-handedly, a driving force for what we all now take for granted as farm-to-table and all the other source- and seasonal-based eating that’s so ubiquitous that it has become cliche. His contributions here are important and undeniable.

Related to #2, chef Barber has never been shy about this; he’s a Zealot. In most ways, that’s good - an “overnight success” that actually takes 20 years requires a zealot.

Watch the Chef’s table episode from 2015. He acknowledges (some of) his bad behavior/temper. The fact that other chefs do this to the point of normalcy is not an excuse. It’s barely a reason. It’s awful, always has been, and that cuppupance is deserved. We should try to be better over time, not worse. Do standards change? Of course, but no one is grandfathered in.

“But why are they picking on him? Everyone does this!” - because of the above! He has - rightfully in most instances - held himself and his restaurants in the highest regard; examples to emulate (he says as much in the chef’s table ep); a benchmark and standard. It’s therefore more important / impactful in how he runs those businesses. Further, through their PR / crisis management teams - he/they admitted to lying to diners about ingredients, etc. There is not possible excuse for this. Does the punishment fit the “crime?” - i don’t know. But to quote Vincent Vega: “Antwan probably didn’t expect Marsellus to react like he did, but he had to expect a reaction.”

Long way of saying; it’s okay to hold two seemingly contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time, which actually aren’t: He’s a great and important chef AND has presided over a system that was abusive (to say the least) and lied to his customers.

Philosophically, we can debate whether this is the deal society has made with certain individuals; must we accept bad behaviour and bad outcomes in exchange for greatness? I don’t know. I think about it a lot though because it comes up often in all industries.

#5 great reference of Vincent Vega!

I could only imagine what kind of article a deep dive into a Marco Pierre White restaurant would produce.

Stan_Y · July 8, 2022, 4:38pm

Could substitute ‘Elon Musk’ and ‘electric vehicles’ for ‘Dan Barber’ and ‘farm to table’ with similar results .

Mark_Golodetz · July 8, 2022, 4:48pm

some rather disturbing takes in this thread.

some thoughts:

disclaimer; i’ve been invited to at least 2 events at blue hill restaurants that i didn’t pay for. further, i’ve dined many, many times at their restaurants and have generally loved my experiences (VIP? probably. Single-Udder VIP? Unknown!). By far the top was dining on the same night - and next to - the Obamas on their first date night in the city after being elected. It was also our first date night after having our daughter earlier that Spring. (brought a 1989 Leroy Corton - delicious).

Dan Barber is - without qualification - a generational talent. And as has been noted here, if not single-handedly, a driving force for what we all now take for granted as farm-to-table and all the other source- and seasonal-based eating that’s so ubiquitous that it has become cliche. His contributions here are important and undeniable.

Related to #2, chef Barber has never been shy about this; he’s a Zealot. In most ways, that’s good - an “overnight success” that actually takes 20 years requires a zealot.

Watch the Chef’s table episode from 2015. He acknowledges (some of) his bad behavior/temper. The fact that other chefs do this to the point of normalcy is not an excuse. It’s barely a reason. It’s awful, always has been, and that cuppupance is deserved. We should try to be better over time, not worse. Do standards change? Of course, but no one is grandfathered in.

“But why are they picking on him? Everyone does this!” - because of the above! He has - rightfully in most instances - held himself and his restaurants in the highest regard; examples to emulate (he says as much in the chef’s table ep); a benchmark and standard. It’s therefore more important / impactful in how he runs those businesses. Further, through their PR / crisis management teams - he/they admitted to lying to diners about ingredients, etc. There is not possible excuse for this. Does the punishment fit the “crime?” - i don’t know. But to quote Vincent Vega: “Antwan probably didn’t expect Marsellus to react like he did, but he had to expect a reaction.”

Long way of saying; it’s okay to hold two seemingly contradictory thoughts in your head at the same time, which actually aren’t: He’s a great and important chef AND has presided over a system that was abusive (to say the least) and lied to his customers.

Philosophically, we can debate whether this is the deal society has made with certain individuals; must we accept bad behaviour and bad outcomes in exchange for greatness? I don’t know. I think about it a lot though because it comes up often in all industries.

Absolutely agree with the two contradictory thoughts. One of the Somms was a friend,so knew something about the culture. He said “better than Gordon Ramsay” so I figured he knew abuse.
The two main charges are still the real problem; the rape abuse and the switching of ingredients for Vegetarian/Vegans. The former was horrible judgement and a Godawful way to cover up, and heads should have rolled; the latter as it was not just once, but several times plus was utterly unforgivable.

That being said, that is not the reason, I will not go back. I really don’t need the performance aspect of the meal; and I think it does strangle some of the creativity of the food. In fact there are now several restaurants locally which are better than Blue Hill the last time I was there.

Brent_C_l_a_y_t_o_n · July 8, 2022, 6:24pm

There’s a companion article on Stone Barns as well…

Scott_G_r_u_n_e_r · July 8, 2022, 7:00pm

Exactly. Does the ends justify the means? Do we give genius a pass for being an asshole?

The Elon Musk reference brought up was the first person I thought of, but there are many other examples of people that get by with asshole behavior because of who they are, or what money they have.

Dude is a chef, not a god. Just because he is a damn good one, doesn’t make it OK to be a dick. And further, as you also noted, when you become a hallmark for “doing things better” you are double the hypocrite for being an asshole.

Personally I care a lot more about someone being a good person, than I do about whatever accomplishments they have made. Maybe I am an outlier these days

ybarselah · July 8, 2022, 7:04pm

kinda my point - these can’t be parsed. you’ve likely benefited from eating at restaurants that stood on barber’s shoulders.

elon getting a lot of play here, but there isn’t a single person that has done more for the environment. fair trade?

Siun_O_Connell · July 8, 2022, 7:18pm

Ummmm…. Musk has done most for environment?

Read all three articles and it sure sees like a tale of mismanagement and exploitation of staff under guise of “genius.” Real genius incorporates goos anagement and good staff and customer treatment or it’s just not so exceptional.

Stan_Y · July 8, 2022, 10:09pm

I was just commenting on Yaacov’s contradictory thoughts about disturbing talent. But it’s not a stretch to give Musk credit for helping the environment by making electric cars popular and practical, probably more than farm to table will help the environment in the end.

Scott_G_r_u_n_e_r · July 9, 2022, 1:34am

wait…. spaceX is good for the environment? Musk is a successful entrepreneur, and perhaps even a business visionary, but to think his motives are anything other than business and power is a bunch of bull.