Eleven Mad goes Vegan

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Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#1 Post by Mark Golodetz »

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#2 Post by David K o l i n »

Pass

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#3 Post by Paul Jaouen »

Really hard to see it working at $335 PP. Those are expensive veggies!
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#4 Post by Rodrigo B »

Interesting, but I imagine that’s going to be a tough sell to many, especially at their price point.

They’d probably have more luck if they branded it as a seasonal menu change rather than a permanent one and then see what the reception was.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#5 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Nope

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#6 Post by Mark Y »

Arpege in paris is basically all veggie (with a couple of meat courses at the end).. and it's about that price, and seems to do ok?
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#7 Post by J a y H a c k »

No milk, no cheese, no butter, no eggs . . . no money. I have had some very high end vegan meals from famous chefs and there is no way I am going to pay anything close to $335 for that. AND I was looking forward to going to EMP if it reopened. :(
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#8 Post by mark rudner »

i just came here to post the link to the eaterny article
not surprised to see it here already
not for me, although he's not a stupid guy
there has to be some numbers/research behind this

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#9 Post by Mike Cohen »

Years ago at The French Laundry my wife and I both had the nine course tasting menu. My wife is more of a picky eater and because you couldn't substitute (or maybe you could, but there were a ton of courses that she wouldn't eat), she opted for the vegetable (not vegetarian but close) tasting menu while I had the standard tasting menu. Both were outstanding.

That said, I wish EMP well, but can't see it being a big hit.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#10 Post by Scott G r u n e r »

Mike Cohen wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 12:55 pm Years ago at The French Laundry my wife and I both had the nine course tasting menu. My wife is more of a picky eater and because you couldn't substitute (or maybe you could, but there were a ton of courses that she wouldn't eat), she opted for the vegetable (not vegetarian but close) tasting menu while I had the standard tasting menu. Both were outstanding.

That said, I wish EMP well, but can't see it being a big hit.
I cannot imagine going to Eleven Madison again and not be able to order that duck. (or something approximately interesting)

re: your french laundry experience- I had a similar experience at a restaurant that shall go unnamed in Washington state. The beauty was that the courses she didn't want to eat were small enough that I could absorb her shares. Win!
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#11 Post by Mike Evans »

I’m primarily a carnivore, but many of the most memorable and delicious restaurant dishes I’ve ever had have been vegetarian so I can see giving it a shot.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#12 Post by Sh@n A »

If money was no object, I would be checking it out for sure. I have found vegetarian tasting menus at times to be more interesting (and delicious) than non-veg tasting menus. But $335 w/ tax = $365 with tax... and that exclude drinks. So all-in ?$425+?... per person. Would like to support the idea, but that's not a price point I play in.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#13 Post by c fu »

I'm in for this. Since going vegetarian back in 2019 I've had chefs at some of our LA establishments prepare Veggie based tasting menus and they've been incredible. The ability to draw flavor and uniqueness from vegetables is a true form of art.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#14 Post by Jay Miller »

A few observations:

after a pleasant but unremarkable meal off their grid menu I lost interest in 11 Madison and haven't been back since

I've loved meals at l'Arpege so if reviews were good for the vegan menu at 11 Mad I would have considered giving them a chance

if it weren't for how badly they treated their employees when covid hit. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=169884&p=2981249
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#15 Post by M.Kaplan »

Vegetarian isn't vegan. Arpege uses eggs, butter, cream and other animal products in many of its vegetable dishes and its signature dish remains Passard's Chaud-froid d’Oeuf au Sirop d’Érable. Part of the success of Arpege is that Passard owns the organic farms where fruits and vegetables are grown for the restaurant and are harvested the same day as they are served. If Chef Humm, whom I respect greatly, can replicate a similar farm to table experience, I'd give it a try. But, without butter or cream? I dunno about that... I'll also chime in that Humm has experimented with different approaches in the past without, in my opinion, perfecting them first. I like to support chefs who never stop striving and inventing, so I'll likely try vegan EMP once and take it from there.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#16 Post by c fu »

I hope it's not 6 courses of beets like Arpege was. woof
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#17 Post by M Kelly »

Hahahaha, we loved our Arpege experience, Charlie! Just wish the couple next to us had been up to split the Roulot Charmes off the list. They felt the need to lecture me on the rarity of Chateau des Tours blanc. The somm gave me a look and a smirk.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#18 Post by Stan Y. »

c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 6:10 pm I hope it's not 6 courses of beets like Arpege was. woof
For me it was, it's the last week of July dammit, why can't you put a perfect homegrown tomato in one dish?
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#19 Post by Victor Hong »

Artichokes and asparagus will pair well with red wines.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#20 Post by RyanC »

M.Kaplan wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 3:54 pm Vegetarian isn't vegan. Arpege uses eggs, butter, cream and other animal products in many of its vegetable dishes and its signature dish remains Passard's Chaud-froid d’Oeuf au Sirop d’Érable. Part of the success of Arpege is that Passard owns the organic farms where fruits and vegetables are grown for the restaurant and are harvested the same day as they are served. If Chef Humm, whom I respect greatly, can replicate a similar farm to table experience, I'd give it a try. But, without butter or cream? I dunno about that... I'll also chime in that Humm has experimented with different approaches in the past without, in my opinion, perfecting them first. I like to support chefs who never stop striving and inventing, so I'll likely try vegan EMP once and take it from there.
And Arpege, of course, isn’t even vegetarian anymore. My last visit we had lamb and lobster and I think chicken too (and of course the beautiful egg).

If the reviews are good I’d consider trying the new EMP. But I’m fearful for them that it will be a tough sell.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#21 Post by jordan whitehead »

c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 3:30 pm Since going vegetarian back in 2019.
you don't eat caviar?
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#22 Post by Mark Y »

RyanC wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 7:27 pm
M.Kaplan wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 3:54 pm Vegetarian isn't vegan. Arpege uses eggs, butter, cream and other animal products in many of its vegetable dishes and its signature dish remains Passard's Chaud-froid d’Oeuf au Sirop d’Érable. Part of the success of Arpege is that Passard owns the organic farms where fruits and vegetables are grown for the restaurant and are harvested the same day as they are served. If Chef Humm, whom I respect greatly, can replicate a similar farm to table experience, I'd give it a try. But, without butter or cream? I dunno about that... I'll also chime in that Humm has experimented with different approaches in the past without, in my opinion, perfecting them first. I like to support chefs who never stop striving and inventing, so I'll likely try vegan EMP once and take it from there.
And Arpege, of course, isn’t even vegetarian anymore. My last visit we had lamb and lobster and I think chicken too (and of course the beautiful egg).

If the reviews are good I’d consider trying the new EMP. But I’m fearful for them that it will be a tough sell.
Oh was Arpege pure veg before? when i went (3-4 years ago), it was basically all veg except last 2 courses.. but still had a couple of courses of meat..

I did think the vegetables were superbly done tho.. luckily didn't get much repeated veg like 6 courses of beets lol...
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#23 Post by David K o l i n »

No cheese, no dice.

My wife is a vegetarian and as I cook for the family we probably eat flesh free 5 or so nights a week (with the occasional Flannery supplement). I’ve had great vegetarian tasting menus (starting with Charlie Trotter’s), but egg, butter, cream and cheese softened the blow.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#24 Post by c fu »

jordan whitehead wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 7:48 pm
c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 3:30 pm Since going vegetarian back in 2019.
you don't eat caviar?
i eat eggs and dairy. I'm not vegan.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#25 Post by jordan whitehead »

c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:24 pm
jordan whitehead wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 7:48 pm
c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 3:30 pm Since going vegetarian back in 2019.
you don't eat caviar?
i eat eggs and dairy. I'm not vegan.
can't keep track of the variations and definitions
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#26 Post by Reg Brown »

EMP had one of the great NYC wine lists before Covid. Wonder if a chunk was sold off to address Humm’s financial crunch? Curious as to how the somms will adjust, particularly with respect to the red wine list.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#27 Post by Linda Baehr »

Reg Brown wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 10:54 pm EMP had one of the great NYC wine lists before Covid. Wonder if a chunk was sold off to address Humm’s financial crunch? Curious as to how the somms will adjust, particularly with respect to the red wine list.
You can still do a lot of reds if you go heavy on the tomato and mushroom. I'm thinking they might go "Noma" and go heavy on fermented foods. That can really kick up the umami in veg dishes. I'm a carnivore but ferment a lot of foods, and the flavors you can get out of them is pretty astounding. I don't eat nearly as much meat as I used to.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#28 Post by George Hejna »

David K o l i n wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:11 pm No cheese, no dice.

My wife is a vegetarian and as I cook for the family we probably eat flesh free 5 or so nights a week (with the occasional Flannery supplement). I’ve had great vegetarian tasting menus (starting with Charlie Trotter’s), but egg, butter, cream and cheese softened the blow.
CT's vegetable menu was not vegetarian. He used meat stock in many of the dishes. Not sure if they could be substituted out but I worked in his kitchen one night (a charity thing) and was surprised by the amount of "meat" in the vegetable dishes. There were no substitutes made the night I worked there and I really don't see CT as being at all flexible but that of course was only 1 night.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#29 Post by George Hejna »

Will definitely give it a go. I have mad respect for his food.

Hope it goes better than the Noma vegetable menu I had precovid. That was terrible. Loved Arpege but as others have said it really does not compare from a vegetarian/vegan standpoint as there is now significant meat.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#30 Post by David K o l i n »

George Hejna wrote: May 4th, 2021, 6:33 am
David K o l i n wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:11 pm No cheese, no dice.

My wife is a vegetarian and as I cook for the family we probably eat flesh free 5 or so nights a week (with the occasional Flannery supplement). I’ve had great vegetarian tasting menus (starting with Charlie Trotter’s), but egg, butter, cream and cheese softened the blow.
CT's vegetable menu was not vegetarian. He used meat stock in many of the dishes. Not sure if they could be substituted out but I worked in his kitchen one night (a charity thing) and was surprised by the amount of "meat" in the vegetable dishes. There were no substitutes made the night I worked there and I really don't see CT as being at all flexible but that of course was only 1 night.

George
I worked a couple of nights there - same charity deal, but each before he went vegetable. Thanks for the insight

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#31 Post by Alex N »

jordan whitehead wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:59 pm
c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:24 pm
jordan whitehead wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 7:48 pm

you don't eat caviar?
i eat eggs and dairy. I'm not vegan.
can't keep track of the variations and definitions
Since the fish dies to provide caviar (unlike chicken, duck etc eggs), caviar isn't considered vegetarian.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#32 Post by George Hejna »

Alex N wrote: May 4th, 2021, 8:06 am
jordan whitehead wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:59 pm
c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 8:24 pm

i eat eggs and dairy. I'm not vegan.
can't keep track of the variations and definitions
Since the fish dies to provide caviar (unlike chicken, duck etc eggs), caviar isn't considered vegetarian.
Traditionally yes but there is "no kill" Caviar.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#33 Post by Robert Dentice »

I am extremely excited about this. Noma's veg menu was one of the best meals of my life. And believe it or not at 11 Madison level it is even more expensive to cook without using meat. Dan Barber said he lost money on every vegetarian menu.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#34 Post by T. Melloni »

Robert Dentice wrote: May 4th, 2021, 11:38 am I am extremely excited about this. ... And believe it or not at 11 Madison level it is even more expensive to cook without using meat. Dan Barber said he lost money on every vegetarian menu.
I am excited as well. I have only been to EMP two times - the most memorable dishes were both vegetarian.
One was a warm porcini mushroom broth.
The second was a carrot marshmallow. Two deceptively simple dishes that were adventurous and fun.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#35 Post by G. Keeler »

I've had some great vegetarian tasting menus. In the right hands it can be better/more creative than a piece of protein on a plate with a little sauce on the side like you see at so many of these tasting menu restaurants these days. My two experiences at EMP though were very mediocre. Both times it felt that the way the plate looked was more important to the chef than the flavors working together.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#36 Post by Barry L i p t o n »

I stopped going to EMP when the concept changed to just a few words for each on the menu, and the chocolates was white chocolate (discovered only upon being served. I hate white chocolate, the lard of the dessert world). That was before they went to the NY Story approach.

Now my issue is I don’t go 3-4 hour meals. Also, the leading price digit is higher than 2.

I also had high end meals where the beget version was A++ to the regular menu’s A (Buerhuesel when it was 3*, Lespinasse under Grey Kunz).

Now if they have a lunch option that’s more modest, I’m game. EMP lunches were among the best back in the day.
Last edited by Barry L i p t o n on May 4th, 2021, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#37 Post by RichardFlack »

c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 6:10 pm I hope it's not 6 courses of beets like Arpege was. woof
However.... two or three years ago (I lose track), at Smythe in Chicago, one of our party, allergic to shellfish, had a turnip substituted for scallop. She raved about that throughout our trip. I guess your issue is the times six?

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#38 Post by Shoshana Filene »

T. Melloni wrote: May 4th, 2021, 12:04 pm
Robert Dentice wrote: May 4th, 2021, 11:38 am I am extremely excited about this. ... And believe it or not at 11 Madison level it is even more expensive to cook without using meat. Dan Barber said he lost money on every vegetarian menu.
I am excited as well. I have only been to EMP two times - the most memorable dishes were both vegetarian.
One was a warm porcini mushroom broth.
The second was a carrot marshmallow. Two deceptively simple dishes that were adventurous and fun.
I was going to say. I have been to Eleven Madison quite a few times and the dishes I remember most were vegetarian. In fact, at most of these caliber of restaurants the dishes I tend to remember most are vegetarian. It is very easy to make a piece of meat taste great, but to have a truly memorable vegetarian dish is artistry. I myself am not a vegetarian, but I am sympathetic with the idea of cutting back on animal products significantly and think this is a very brave decision on the part of Eleven Madison. Seeing the reaction of people here, I fear it may not be successful. I for one will get there!
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#39 Post by Alex N »

I've had dozens of memorable vegetarian dishes, very few that were truly vegan, less than a few that were vegan whole foods without either vegan junk or not so healthy processed vegan food. It'll be fun looking at what this chef creates.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#40 Post by Kenny H »

c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 3:30 pm I'm in for this. Since going vegetarian back in 2019 I've had chefs at some of our LA establishments prepare Veggie based tasting menus and they've been incredible. The ability to draw flavor and uniqueness from vegetables is a true form of art.
This. Some of the best cooking I have done has been vegan. It really pushes creativity and even more importantly execution. You can prep a protein the same over and over, vegetables not so much. The level of difficulty here to even get consistency is off the charts.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#41 Post by M.Kaplan »

Stan Y. wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 7:14 pm
c fu wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 6:10 pm I hope it's not 6 courses of beets like Arpege was. woof
For me it was, it's the last week of July dammit, why can't you put a perfect homegrown tomato in one dish?

Thread drift...

Stan,
One of my favorite dishes at Arpege is tomato carpaccio (thinly sliced tomatoes, geranium oil, and salt). I always request it if not on the ala carte menu and, if they have large tomatoes that evening, they are happy to serve it. We no longer order either of the two tasting menus, preferring to create our own and I always want tomato carpaccio. And it is, of course, vegan.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#42 Post by John Davis »

Would easily go to there for vegetarian but vegan for that price? Don’t think so.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#43 Post by Kevin Porter »

I suggest that all the doubters come to Philadelphia and go to Vedge. It is fully vegan and has served me a handful of wonderful meals (each of the handful of times I've been there). I am neither vegan nor vegetarian but love their food.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#44 Post by Sarah Kirschbaum »

Kevin Porter wrote: May 5th, 2021, 2:05 pm I suggest that all the doubters come to Philadelphia and go to Vedge. It is fully vegan and has served me a handful of wonderful meals (each of the handful of times I've been there). I am neither vegan nor vegetarian but love their food.
Sorry, Kevin - I love the people and the wine list at Vedge, but I can't agree about the food. There are a few very good dishes, but Vedge, for me, falls into the trap of so many vegan/vegetarian restaurants of being so heavy on the coconut oil and starches, so you come home with your stomach feeling like a lead weight has been poured into it even though everything tasted good. That's exactly what I hope EMP *won't* be doing, but will focus instead on just the vegetables.
Sort of ITB - my husband imports a small amount of sake and I help out

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#45 Post by Kevin Porter »

Sarah Kirschbaum wrote: May 5th, 2021, 3:15 pm
Kevin Porter wrote: May 5th, 2021, 2:05 pm I suggest that all the doubters come to Philadelphia and go to Vedge. It is fully vegan and has served me a handful of wonderful meals (each of the handful of times I've been there). I am neither vegan nor vegetarian but love their food.
Sorry, Kevin - I love the people and the wine list at Vedge, but I can't agree about the food. There are a few very good dishes, but Vedge, for me, falls into the trap of so many vegan/vegetarian restaurants of being so heavy on the coconut oil and starches, so you come home with your stomach feeling like a lead weight has been poured into it even though everything tasted good. That's exactly what I hope EMP *won't* be doing, but will focus instead on just the vegetables.
No need to apologize (obviously) for having an opinion, and in fact a well informed one. I know that you have more fine dining experience than I, and presumably a more developed palate. I’ve never felt that way about their food but I have stuck to some fave dishes.

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#46 Post by ybarselah »

Mark Y wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 11:03 am Arpege in paris is basically all veggie (with a couple of meat courses at the end).. and it's about that price, and seems to do ok?
butter. lots and lots of it.

on any given night there are multiple seafood options game birds and veal, lamb, etc. i don't think arpege compares anything to this.

been thinking about it for a few days since the announcement and humm may just pull it off from a press perspective. at some point there will be a 3-star michelin vegan restaurant, why not EMP?
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#47 Post by T. Altmayer »

I think it is great that they are trying this if that is their passion. Put me on the list of those who will be less likely to go because of it, however. Just not my thing, at least at those prices.
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#48 Post by Mark Y »

ybarselah wrote: May 5th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Mark Y wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 11:03 am Arpege in paris is basically all veggie (with a couple of meat courses at the end).. and it's about that price, and seems to do ok?
butter. lots and lots of it.

on any given night there are multiple seafood options game birds and veal, lamb, etc. i don't think arpege compares anything to this.

been thinking about it for a few days since the announcement and humm may just pull it off from a press perspective. at some point there will be a 3-star michelin vegan restaurant, why not EMP?
On any given night there are multiple seafood options??

I guess on my night there wasn’t. Just prawns. And lamb.

10 courses of veg. 2 meat/seafood

But yes. Agreed that Butter cream etc is a huge diff
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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#49 Post by M.Kaplan »

Mark Y wrote: May 5th, 2021, 6:11 pm
ybarselah wrote: May 5th, 2021, 4:36 pm
Mark Y wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 11:03 am Arpege in paris is basically all veggie (with a couple of meat courses at the end).. and it's about that price, and seems to do ok?
butter. lots and lots of it.

on any given night there are multiple seafood options game birds and veal, lamb, etc. i don't think arpege compares anything to this.

been thinking about it for a few days since the announcement and humm may just pull it off from a press perspective. at some point there will be a 3-star michelin vegan restaurant, why not EMP?
On any given night there are multiple seafood options??

I guess on my night there wasn’t. Just prawns. And lamb.

10 courses of veg. 2 meat/seafood

But yes. Agreed that Butter cream etc is a huge diff
As Yaacov notes, Arpege has plenty of ala carte animal protein options, while the fixed price menu includes one seafood (most often 1/2 lobster) and one terrestrial protein.

Passard is a great roaster of meats and seafoods, which doesn’t get enough attention given his skill with vegetables.
—Mark

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Re: Eleven Mad goes Vegan

#50 Post by Tom R W »

Mike Cohen wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 12:55 pm Years ago at The French Laundry my wife and I both had the nine course tasting menu. My wife is more of a picky eater and because you couldn't substitute (or maybe you could, but there were a ton of courses that she wouldn't eat), she opted for the vegetable (not vegetarian but close) tasting menu while I had the standard tasting menu. Both were outstanding.

That said, I wish EMP well, but can't see it being a big hit.
My wife, while not a vegetarian, isn't a fan of "organ food" or undercooked meat so opted for the Vegetable menu at The French Laundry while the rest of us had the traditional menu. Eight years later, she still talks about it as the best meal she's ever had.
W a r r e n

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