Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

Food - recipes, reviews, and discussion
Message
Author
K_F_o_l_e_y
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1556
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 10:36 am
Location: Boston, MA USA
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#101 Post by K_F_o_l_e_y »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: February 28th, 2021, 4:58 pm It’s certainly faster using 100% steam but maybe if you want a better crust it’d be better to use 0% steam or at least less than 100%. I need to experiment.
I've seen a couple of Anova employees do the 0% steam method to make it easier to sear. As you know, you can use the probe and kick up the oven temp to speed up the cook and pull it when the core reaches the desired temp (what is called delta-T cooking) without over-cooking the exterior (some interesting science why this is so).
Cheers,
/<evin


"Ah! Dull-witted mortal, if Fortune stands still, she is no longer Fortune."
~ Boëthius, in Consolation of Philosophy

Mich@el Ch@ng
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 7416
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#102 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

K_F_o_l_e_y wrote: February 28th, 2021, 5:59 pm
Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: February 28th, 2021, 4:58 pm It’s certainly faster using 100% steam but maybe if you want a better crust it’d be better to use 0% steam or at least less than 100%. I need to experiment.
I've seen a couple of Anova employees do the 0% steam method to make it easier to sear. As you know, you can use the probe and kick up the oven temp to speed up the cook and pull it when the core reaches the desired temp (what is called delta-T cooking) without over-cooking the exterior (some interesting science why this is so).
Yeah probably try 200F with 0% steam and the probe next.

Mich@el Ch@ng
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 7416
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#103 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Gonna try hangers tomm with sous vide mode without steam, 135F to target of 124F.

Mich@el Ch@ng
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 7416
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#104 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

Basically don’t bother with steam for making meat. Just use sous vide mode with 0% steam and set the oven temp like 10 degrees above the target temp. It doesn’t take long at all to get to temp unless you’re cooking something enormous like a prime rib. Made kurubota pork chops tonight which were just amazing. 140 oven to 135 internal, let it go 1-2 degrees past 135, then seared in blazing hot hestan. They were PERFECT.

K_F_o_l_e_y
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1556
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 10:36 am
Location: Boston, MA USA
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#105 Post by K_F_o_l_e_y »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: March 8th, 2021, 5:36 pm Basically don’t bother with steam for making meat. Just use sous vide mode with 0% steam and set the oven temp like 10 degrees above the target temp. It doesn’t take long at all to get to temp unless you’re cooking something enormous like a prime rib. Made kurubota pork chops tonight which were just amazing. 140 oven to 135 internal, let it go 1-2 degrees past 135, then seared in blazing hot hestan. They were PERFECT.
We need pics!
Cheers,
/<evin


"Ah! Dull-witted mortal, if Fortune stands still, she is no longer Fortune."
~ Boëthius, in Consolation of Philosophy

User avatar
Jason T
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2810
Joined: June 8th, 2014, 7:45 am
Location: London
Has thanked: 47 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#106 Post by Jason T »

How does sous vide work in a combi?
J@son Tr@ughber

K_F_o_l_e_y
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1556
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 10:36 am
Location: Boston, MA USA
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#107 Post by K_F_o_l_e_y »

Jason T wrote: March 10th, 2021, 6:22 pm How does sous vide work in a combi?
Bear with me here. There are 2 ways to do this:

1) bagged (vacuum-packed or not)

Obviously, heat is transferred to a bag containing the food by steam (for the most part). You might think this would be much less efficient than the bag having direct contact with water in a sous vide water bath. But it turns out that steam is actually almost as efficient as the water bath, and for long cooks and things larger than a steak, the difference is not even apparent (some counterintuitive science here I won't go into). The most time/temp sensitive thing you can sous vide, an egg, takes 13 min at 167°F in a water bath and 16 min at 167°F in a combi oven (my numbers) and the results are indistinguishable.

Advantages? Debatable, but the oven is much, much faster heating (particularly for its cooking capacity). And of course, the combi oven can do many things that the water bath can't do (sourdough bread starting with steam and then moving to no steam for example). The opposite isn't true; basically everything you can do in a water bath, you can do in a combi oven. It does take up more space and is more expensive.

2) no bag

This is the most interesting approach. First off, the relative humidity inside a bag in a water bath can be assumed to be 100%. You can mimic these conditions in a combi oven set to 100% relative humidity (maximum saturation of water in air at that temp and pressure). So the conditions your steak is exposed to in the oven are virtually identical to those in the bag (you can imagine some theoretical differences, like perhaps volatiles might escape in the non-bagged situation). At 100% relative humidity, no evaporation can occur from the surface of the steak, just like in a bag. The APO also has built-in dry (air temp) and wet bulb (surface temp of food taking into account evaporative cooling) thermometers (and a probe), but at 100% relative humidity, the dry and wet bulb temps are equal.

Let your mind run with the possibilities here that come with being able to control both temp and relative humidity! I just saw a professional chef on Instagram posting a video about how he's buying multiple APOs for his restaurant because he can make poached and fried eggs and hold them in the oven for an hour before serving and he can't tell the difference (at a fraction of the price of a $15,000 Rational combi oven or CVap).

Caveat: Anova claims that they hit 100% relative humidity. In practice, I find that it does not, so the above theory is not perfectly applicable to this oven. However, the style of cooking still works in this oven with occaisonal situtations where it doesn't. On long cooks (> several hours), without a bag, you can get some surface moisture loss. Also, for long cooks (>24hr) you might also want to use a bag to avoid off flavors due to oxidization.

Some people want to have semantic arguments about why "it's not sous vide", but that bores me. If the food is exposed to the same physical conditions and the result is indistinguishable, does it matter how you got there? Many chefs, like Thomas Keller and Jean-George consider it sous vide and this is commonly done in restaurants with combi or CVap ovens. And here's a quote from Modernist Cuisine:

"Cooking sous vide is easier than its fancy name might suggest. You simply seal the ingredients in a plastic bag (you can also use a canning jar) and place them in a water bath, a combi oven, or any other cooker that can set and hold a target temperature to within a degree or two...Although sous vide literally means “under vacuum” in French, the defining feature of the sous vide method is not packaging or vacuum sealing; it is accurate temperature control."
Last edited by K_F_o_l_e_y on March 10th, 2021, 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cheers,
/<evin


"Ah! Dull-witted mortal, if Fortune stands still, she is no longer Fortune."
~ Boëthius, in Consolation of Philosophy

Mich@el Ch@ng
Monopole Crü
Monopole Crü
Posts: 7416
Joined: March 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#108 Post by Mich@el Ch@ng »

I’ve been using it more to reverse sear than sous vide., temp control is very accurate, though.

K_F_o_l_e_y
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1556
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 10:36 am
Location: Boston, MA USA
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#109 Post by K_F_o_l_e_y »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: March 10th, 2021, 7:17 pm I’ve been using it more to reverse sear than sous vide., temp control is very accurate, though.
Not to get bogged down in semantics, which I hate, but I would actually say that doing your reverse sear in the APO is still sous vide. It doesn't actually matter whether it is dry air or wet air (steam), heat is still being transferred to the meat at a precisely controlled temp. The big advantage of your approach doing it with no or low steam is that the surface of the meat is drying out so that the subsequent searing works much better. I've seen a couple of Anova employees posting about how they do it that way too.

Another interesting capability is using the probe to measure the core temp of the steak. This allows you to bump the wet bulb temp to ~10 degrees higher than the desired final temp of the steak, which causes it to reach the desired core temp twice as fast (neatly sidestepping Newton's Law of Cooling which causes the last few degrees of heating to be very very slow). But, surprisingly, this doesn't result in the outside of the steak being over-cooked. I had an interesting conversation with Chris Young (coauthor of Modernist Cuisine and founder of ChefSteps) about why this is on Reddit a week ago. This is now becoming a thing (sometimes referred to as delta-T cooking), and is even built into some circulators, like the new one from PolyScience.
Cheers,
/<evin


"Ah! Dull-witted mortal, if Fortune stands still, she is no longer Fortune."
~ Boëthius, in Consolation of Philosophy

User avatar
Jason T
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 2810
Joined: June 8th, 2014, 7:45 am
Location: London
Has thanked: 47 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#110 Post by Jason T »

K_F_o_l_e_y wrote: March 10th, 2021, 7:10 pm
Jason T wrote: March 10th, 2021, 6:22 pm How does sous vide work in a combi?
Bear with me here. There are 2 ways to do this:

1) bagged (vacuum-packed or not)

Obviously, heat is transferred to a bag containing the food by steam (for the most part). You might think this would be much less efficient than the bag having direct contact with water in a sous vide water bath. But it turns out that steam is actually almost as efficient as the water bath, and for long cooks and things larger than a steak, the difference is not even apparent (some counterintuitive science here I won't go into). The most time/temp sensitive thing you can sous vide, an egg, takes 13 min at 167°F in a water bath and 16 min at 167°F in a combi oven (my numbers) and the results are indistinguishable.

Advantages? Debatable, but the oven is much, much faster heating (particularly for its cooking capacity). And of course, the combi oven can do many things that the water bath can't do (sourdough bread starting with steam and then moving to no steam for example). The opposite isn't true; basically everything you can do in a water bath, you can do in a combi oven. It does take up more space and is more expensive.

2) no bag

This is the most interesting approach. First off, the relative humidity inside a bag in a water bath can be assumed to be 100%. You can mimic these conditions in a combi oven set to 100% relative humidity (maximum saturation of water in air at that temp and pressure). So the conditions your steak is exposed to in the oven are virtually identical to those in the bag (you can imagine some theoretical differences, like perhaps volatiles might escape in the non-bagged situation). At 100% relative humidity, no evaporation can occur from the surface of the steak, just like in a bag. The APO also has built-in dry (air temp) and wet bulb (surface temp of food taking into account evaporative cooling) thermometers (and a probe), but at 100% relative humidity, the dry and wet bulb temps are equal.

Let your mind run with the possibilities here that come with being able to control both temp and relative humidity! I just saw a professional chef on Instagram posting a video about how he's buying multiple APOs for his restaurant because he can make poached and fried eggs and hold them in the oven for an hour before serving and he can't tell the difference (at a fraction of the price of a $15,000 Rational combi oven or CVap).

Caveat: Anova claims that they hit 100% relative humidity. In practice, I find that it does not, so the above theory is not perfectly applicable to this oven. However, the style of cooking still works in this oven with occaisonal situtations where it doesn't. On long cooks (> several hours), without a bag, you can get some surface moisture loss. Also, for long cooks (>24hr) you might also want to use a bag to avoid off flavors due to oxidization.

Some people want to have semantic arguments about why "it's not sous vide", but that bores me. If the food is exposed to the same physical conditions and the result is indistinguishable, does it matter how you got there? Many chefs, like Thomas Keller and Jean-George consider it sous vide and this is commonly done in restaurants with combi or CVap ovens. And here's a quote from Modernist Cuisine:

"Cooking sous vide is easier than its fancy name might suggest. You simply seal the ingredients in a plastic bag (you can also use a canning jar) and place them in a water bath, a combi oven, or any other cooker that can set and hold a target temperature to within a degree or two...Although sous vide literally means “under vacuum” in French, the defining feature of the sous vide method is not packaging or vacuum sealing; it is accurate temperature control."
Kevin, makes sense to me, thanks for the very detailed explanation!
J@son Tr@ughber

Jason Crawford
Posts: 244
Joined: January 16th, 2013, 6:59 pm
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#111 Post by Jason Crawford »

Mich@el Ch@ng wrote: March 10th, 2021, 7:17 pm I’ve been using it more to reverse sear than sous vide., temp control is very accurate, though.
This is exactly how we use the oven. However, we are currently building a second kitchen which will include a Gaggenau steam oven. If anyone wants a good deal on an Anova oven that was used less than 20x let me know!

K_F_o_l_e_y
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1556
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 10:36 am
Location: Boston, MA USA
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#112 Post by K_F_o_l_e_y »

Dave Arnold, who happens to own an APO, interviewed Scott Heimendinger of Anova on his Cooking Issues podcast recently, including how reheating is the killer app for the APO.

EPISODE 448: THE INTERSECTION OF QUALITY AND LAZINESS

https://heritageradionetwork.org/episod ... imendinger

Also a pretty good review from the founder of eGullet on ZDNet:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/anova-cul ... en-review/
Cheers,
/<evin


"Ah! Dull-witted mortal, if Fortune stands still, she is no longer Fortune."
~ Boëthius, in Consolation of Philosophy

User avatar
Chris Freemott
BerserkerBusiness
BerserkerBusiness
Posts: 6081
Joined: January 29th, 2009, 7:00 pm
Location: Naperville, IL
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#113 Post by Chris Freemott »

Reheating is the killer app for sure. We use ours daily at this point. I still hate the f'ing psychotic temp control button. tap tap tap tap...grumble...hold for a second - 80 degree sprint in the fraction of a second....F*CK!.....how can they not fix this? LOL.

K_F_o_l_e_y
GCC Member
GCC Member
Posts: 1556
Joined: February 14th, 2009, 10:36 am
Location: Boston, MA USA
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Anova's countertop combi steam oven is out

#114 Post by K_F_o_l_e_y »

Chris Freemott wrote: April 10th, 2021, 11:28 am Reheating is the killer app for sure. We use ours daily at this point. I still hate the f'ing psychotic temp control button. tap tap tap tap...grumble...hold for a second - 80 degree sprint in the fraction of a second....F*CK!.....how can they not fix this? LOL.
Supposedly they have fixed it. Are you updated for the latest firmware and app?

I mostly use the app, so my complaint is app buttons that are so small that only Barbie's fingers can use them.
Cheers,
/<evin


"Ah! Dull-witted mortal, if Fortune stands still, she is no longer Fortune."
~ Boëthius, in Consolation of Philosophy

Post Reply

Return to “Epicurean Exploits - Food and Recipes”