Pinot lengths of Macerations

Hi,

Just wondering how many people here prefer shorter vs maximum skin contact on pinot and why… I have some pinot noir clone 777 just about dry right now in the garage… sadly I need my fermenters to pick up some clone 2a wadenswil Thursday… so I wont be able to extend the maceration time… So i’ll be pressing tomorrow night and going into barrel Tuesday… ANyways This is my second vintage (wine making)… so I thought I would try to experiment and learn from it… so in trying to prepare for this next batch I thought I would ask… are any of you pinot producers allowing your pinot to sit on the skins past dryness? Or are majority pressing at -1 -2 brix, settling and going into barrel… I’m considering doing nothing but whole berry with some added whole clusters and fermenting cooler to extend the maceration but as well extending it past dryness to see if it can add any more structure to it… I’m only curious because I’ve seen on some of my favorite pinot producers websites that they will cold soak for 3-5 days, ferment from 10-14 days (i’m assuming cooler temps + whole berry to get it this long) and then extend the maceration by 10 or so more days on its skins… So maceration time totaling over 30 days which is pretty intriguing… and if any of you are doing this, how can it safely be done? Do you add LAB at this time too or wait till you press? I imagine argon would be necessary to protect it as well… just want to know whether I should give it a shot… I understand it might not be a good idea if your dealing with unripe (green seeds) fruit… any input? THanks!!

I HOPE you aren’t adding LAB!

oh man I feel like will Ferrell now in Old School… “is this bad?”

was I supposed to say, would you add Oenococcus oeni inoculum?

Brandon - what kind of Pinot do you like? Any producers that inspire you for what type of style that you want? That may help guide you to what approach to take. Lots of producers have notes of the regime that went into the wine and if you call the winemakers they might be willing to share their approach.

I only made pinot in a home winemaking context and I probably have too small a sample size to really have an informed opinion, but I liked the wines I made best where the fermentation was slow to start and thus giving it a type of prefermentation maceration and then pressed off the skins as soon as the cap sunk into the wine. I’d be curious to what experienced winemakers have to say, but post fermentation macerations seems to extract tannins but perhaps not as much flavor as early parts of primary fermentation.

The jury is still out on extended maceration, but here are a few known issues to consider:

1. hydrogen sulfide can often be a major concern with post fermentation maceratin, so taste daily and be ready to rack off at the first sign of trouble.

2. many proponents of the practice for high tannin grapes like cabernet are looking for tannin polymerization which softens the impression of tannins in the wine. It often takes several weeks. But Pinot is not very tannic, so perhaps your goal is to boost the tannins. If so, don’t go too long or you might get the opposite of what you are looking for.

3. seed tannins are considered harsher than skin tannins, and I’ve heard they are more alcohol-soluble (though why that might be the case I can’t tell you). So iif excessive tannin is a concern then you might try skimming some of the seeds off of the cap before pursuing your extended maceration regime.

I’ve done it for both Cab and Zin (from Paso).
The Cab was from vineyards that weren’t very tannic to begin with, and it did help in that respect- gave them a much fuller mouthfeel, if not too much more tannin. The same with the zin for the most part, and it brought out a bit more fruity profile.
I would only do it in a closed top tank which you could gas well.

Thanks for the responses! Ya i’m still trying to figure out what my stylistic approach in wine making will be… thought “im a home wine maker, I have nothing to lose”… So thought I would try different things this year… Its funny after I started the topic I checked up on my wine to measure the sugar (-1 brix) and taste it and realized how difficult it was to evaluate it… so much CO2 and funkiness… its probably very difficult to figure out what the hell your doing if you continue to allow it to sit on its skins/seeds extracting more bitter tannins when the wine is already in a “funky” state…

Melville was one of the winery’s I was referring to when I wrote about a 30 day maceration… and its most likely for the same reason Linda did it to her cab, trying to give the wine some more tannic back bone which pinot can lack sometimes…

didn’t think about the H2S thing… I imagine that could be an issue when the wine is just sitting on “gross lees” for an extended period… probably is a process that involves a lot of monitoring (tasting/smelling)… well have to remember that…

and ya it’s probably a safer bet to do it in a ss tank rather than trying to gas a plastic bin…

anyways I have to do some more researching to see if this is something I really want to play with… I def think ill see a lengthier maceration by doing a combination of whole berry/whole cluster next week… anyways thanks for the responses!

I am able to get 21-24 days with no formal cold soak, glycol, or post fermentation maceration. I ferment in T-bins with 10-35% whole clusters with native yeast. The first few days the wine is in the t-bin it is cool as it comes in that way from the vineyard. I blanked with co2 until it starts producing its own usually when temps hit 65-70 degrees. Punchdowns in the beginning are just for the cap though after peak temps 90-95 are reached I start to lightly tap the bottom of the fermentor to break up some of the whole clusters releasing more sugar and keeping the fermentation going. Once the cap falls it goes to the basket press.

So I think your on the right track to use whole clusters to extend the time in the fermentor.

Wow… 21-24 days… that’s awesome! I recently came back from the Willamette Valley and majority of the producers there were telling me Native was the way the go… it’ll just take its sweet ass time… amazing that you can those temps when you do that… most of the guys sharing this stuff with me never mentioned ever getting peak temps like that… anyways thanks for sharing! Lots of things to think about in the next 24-36 hours…

I do mostly extended maceration on pinot. I’ll press a little of it after 10-14 days to have a small fruitier component, but I think the 30-40 day wine has more gravitas/earth/depth/structure. It’s a struggle with open tops. I think you are right that it is safer to get MLF going during extended maceration if your ability to seal the tank is imperfect. I’ve also gone the other way and done a prophylactic lysozyme add after primary and before shutting down the fermenters. I like later MLF, and I think the latter approach is my preferred one. There is kind of a leap of faith involved regarding tannin structuring, and I don’t advise pulling the plug on extended maceration at the first sign of trouble. There will be a thin and hard phase that should pass and the tannins should eventually round off. Still, it is possible to overshoot on tannins, and I have had to shave off a little by fining before bottling in a couple vintages. One idea about extended maceration and tannin structuring is that you are keeping the wine in contact with a large volume of yeast that will have started to autolyse by the time you press, and the proteins released will constitute an early tannin fining. With this in mind, I stir up the lees pretty thoroughly before pressing. My MO for shutting down an open top is to place a couple layers of plastic sheeting over the cap and up the walls of the fermenter. The bottom layer should be thinner/filmier to better conform to the surfaces. The top layer should be sturdier. I weight the plastic with either a couple inches of water (more positive seal, bigger hassle) or with an inch of sand around the perimeter. Both seem to work pretty well, and I’ve always come out of extended maceration with pretty good VAs.

Thank you for that thorough response… What bugs does lysozyme knock out by adding it during your extended maceration? Is it all LAB killed off? If I give this a go I’m pretty sure I can give the drums a pretty tight seal and flush it with argon… Though I imagine there’ll be a couple days where all is good since the wine will be super saturated with CO2… I did just get back after 18 hours with my pinot… Majority of it is whole berries with Maybe 1/3 whole clusters… I decided to skip the enzymes since I’m not really sure if these stems are completely ripened or not… Oh well! But anyways I may give it a shot… Thanks for the heads up on potential fining if tannins get too aggressive… Well see how it goes! Thanks for all the ideas!

Yes, lysozyme is effective against bacteria (LAB and pedio; not acetobacter) but not against fungi (brett and other yeast). One other thing I should have mentioned is that you don’t want mush at the end of extended maceration. I would definitely forego any enzymes aimed at breaking down cell walls. I would also be hesitant about extended maceration with very ripe pinot, and I would dial back how much you work the cap during active fermentation. You’re substituting time for mechanical (or heat or enzymatic) extraction techniques.

Great! ok will limit punch downs… I usually start with 3-4 a day early on (and beat the hell out of it) to get plenty of O2 into the must then back off to 2-3 a day mid way ferment… I will definitely back off a bit and give it more like a gentle push and stir… I got some more dry ice in it this morning… so after work ill add more and start taking sugar readings into the weekend… I think this stuff was harvested just under 24 or just over 24 brix… so I don’t think its too ripe… the 777 I picked 2 weeks ago from the edna valley… well that’s another story… 27.5 brix! anyways thanks again!

During extended maceration after primary fermentation is there any temperature control or is it allowed to just cool to ambient temperature? In Burgundy I would think their ambient temperature would be a bit cooler than California. A cooler temperature should slow the changes occurring during the extended maceration.